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Post by FenwayFanatic on Sept 14, 2018 12:17:12 GMT -5
Kimbrel, Barnes, Brasier, Wright, Workman, Hembree and Eovaldi is fine. People are overreacting because Barnes is hurt and guys who won't even be on the postseason roster aren't pitching well.
Kelly, Thornburg, Pomeranz, Poyner, Johnson, I don't expect any of those guys to be on the playoff roster. Maybe Poyner if someone gets hurt.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 14, 2018 12:35:40 GMT -5
In other words, even intensely critical fans understand perfection is a never realized ideal, hence the term warts and all. Even a 101W team with a 10.5 lead over the ferocious but also imperfect nyfy will inevitably have issues, and to some those issues portend a death knell. These unhappy few may be as happy to be right as to win it all. As I really don't know as much as the Red Sox, I would rather be wrong and win it all.
Although this bullpen has been really superior for much of the season, including Mat Barnes, Joe Kelly and Heath Hembree, everyone on this board (me included) thought another 8th inning arm by the deadline would bring the Pen closer to that never achieved perfection we seem to demand now.. Instead the nyfy "stole" one of them from us (lolol) and the Nats changed their minds at the last minute (lolol) which pretty much describes how trades for relievers can work (see Smith and Thornburg for another lolol.)
DDo would rather have made those deals. We should be happy they fell through. But he seems to have more faith in Kimbrel, Barnes, Brasier, Workman, Poyner, Wright, Hembree, others, than some here. He will keep his job if he wants it. He was the/is the right guy at the right time, perfect or not. He shored up an injured rotation with Eovaldi, who looks like a post-season bullpen stud. He shored up the IF with Pearce (1B), Kinsler (2B), Nunez (3B), and introduced a new DH legend in JDMartinez, and the Pen with Brasier and Eovaldi. He retained Swihart and Lin, protected this incredible killer-B's core and Devers, and is doing a good job rebuilding the Farm. He hired a new manager and coaches to create a new culture of success, which seems to have taken hold.
In summary, the bullpen MAY be the Sox Achilles heel, which says this incredible team has a weakness, is not perfect. Shame on Achilles. But imperfections are standard issue with every other team making the playoffs. Meantime, let's hope for Barnes' and Nunez' healthy return, Eovaldi's successful conversion to the Pen, ever growing consistency from Kimbrel, Brasier, Workman and Wright, and strong innings from starters doing their side sessions from the Pen. Whatever happens, and because it is baseball anything can happen at any time, I am going to enjoy the coming weeks fully and not worry about a thing (it won't help), nor condemn any player or staffer to baseball hell (it can only hurt), and praise everyone who helps win this thing. Halleluia!
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 14, 2018 13:48:23 GMT -5
This bullpen is on DD. He thought it had enough talent and time will tell if he was right. I was certainly in the camp that wanted a more proven guy at a decent cost, say Sergio Romo for example. I'm also a guy that wanted to blow past the upper Tax line in the offseason to get a guy like Tony Watson. Don't talk to me about cost of a reliever at the deadline, almost all of them were very cheap.
People keep talking about Eovaldi and he's the weapon for the bullpen and he's why we didn't get a reliever. How? He has great stuff that he can maintain. I don't see him getting a boost in the pen. He also doesn't strikeout many guys given his stuff its crazy low. He kinda reminds me of Joe Kelly, when he is on he's lights out, but that comes and goes all the time. That's about what we've seen so far. We already have Kelly.
People can have whatever opinions they want, but I think if we don't win a title in the next two years that is on DD. He took over a very talented team stocked with talent, made a ton of trades and signed a lot of guys. This just might be the most talented Red Sox team every and frankly it should be. It was designed to win a championship almost at all costs. We didn't play it safe, we went all in both in terms of trading young players and long-term money. Sure you can't expect a championship in a given year per say, but a three year window isn't crazy. I mean this team is so talented that even Chris Sale not being able to pitch in the postseason wouldn't dooms us.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 14, 2018 14:29:07 GMT -5
This bullpen is on DD. He thought it had enough talent and time will tell if he was right. I was certainly in the camp that wanted a more proven guy at a decent cost, say Sergio Romo for example. I'm also a guy that wanted to blow past the upper Tax line in the offseason to get a guy like Tony Watson. Don't talk to me about cost of a reliever at the deadline, almost all of them were very cheap. People keep talking about Eovaldi and he's the weapon for the bullpen and he's why we didn't get a reliever. How? He has great stuff that he can maintain. I don't see him getting a boost in the pen. He also doesn't strikeout many guys given his stuff its crazy low. He kinda reminds me of Joe Kelly, when he is on he's lights out, but that comes and goes all the time. That's about what we've seen so far. We already have Kelly. People can have whatever opinions they want, but I think if we don't win a title in the next two years that is on DD. He took over a very talented team stocked with talent, made a ton of trades and signed a lot of guys. This just might be the most talented Red Sox team every and frankly it should be. It was designed to win a championship almost at all costs. We didn't play it safe, we went all in both in terms of trading young players and long-term money. Sure you can't expect a championship in a given year per say, but a three year window isn't crazy. I mean this team is so talented that even Chris Sale not being able to pitch in the postseason wouldn't dooms us. I agree with you that Dombrowski will and probably should take heat if the bullpen dooms the Sox in the post-season. I like the "proven" bullpen arm, too. He tried with Herrera. That's not his fault. And the Giants didn't see themselves as sellers during the 7/31 deadline. They didn't until past the waiver deadline which didn't help the Sox at all. For whatever reason the Rays wanted no part of dealing Romo. They refused to deal him even during the 8/31 deadline. But yes, the Sox could have upgraded from the Hembree/Kelly/Thornburg tier of relievers if not the Barnes tier. Or they could have auditioned Buttrey in June the way they auditioned Brasier. I do agree with your point about if the Sox were going to go over the luxury tax limit anyways, then they should have gone after a Tony Watson. If they're barely over then they didn't plan accordingly. What I'm pushing back at is the idea that Dombrowski should lose his job if the Sox don't win the Series this year or next. He upgraded the major league talent. The trick is to do that and be able to build the next wave when it's needed. If he fails that, then I can see him being in trouble. Yes, he would earn criticism if his gamble to be passive on the relief pitcher trade market bites them or Eovaldi can't handle pitching in relief, but I just don't see why he should be fired as Pedro was implying.
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Post by voiceofreason on Sept 14, 2018 14:30:16 GMT -5
I find it funny, absurd actually, that people think winning a championship is that easy. The Sox didn't win a WS in 86 years. What are all of you from the generation that has known nothing but winning championships over the past 17 years? It is ridiculous and you all sound like spoiled brats when it comes to winning championships!!
Oh and it is easier now to pick a name they should have picked up after so many of those guys pitched poorly after being traded.
The Mariners team that won 116 games didn't win the WS. The Pats in 2008 looked unbeatable and where until someone held a ball pinned to his helmet when tackled.
This is sports you have to play the games they aren't decided by the executives.
How about we enjoy the greatest season, thus far, in the history of the Red Sox.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 14, 2018 16:48:56 GMT -5
Look, I'm not saying the Sox are even going to lose this year. I hope they win, in fact. I'm not near the ledge sort of speak.
All I'm saying is that someone is responsible if they don't win in the next 2 years. Let's go over what Dombrowski has spent or did in the last 3 years and what he's guaranteed so far-
-He spent over 400 million in guaranteed money. -He traded 4 top ten prospects and 8 top 20 prospects. He traded a everyday player in Travis Shaw. -He went through 2 managers and coaching staffs. -Dombrowski would have 5 years to win in a go for it approach.
Fans shouldn't get complacent because the Sox won 3 times the past 16 years or whatever. The Sox had a goal in mind and that was clearly to win it all at least once in a small timeframe. When they don't achieve this, someone should get blamed and fired over it. I've seen people and mainly managers get fired in Boston for a lot less of a reason after one mistake in a postseason game or a month of bad baseball that lead to a playoff miss.
One of the best reasons why the 2007 team was arguably my favorite was because they set this goal to win with no excuses and they were expected to abd they achieved it.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 14, 2018 17:31:44 GMT -5
This bullpen is on DD. He thought it had enough talent and time will tell if he was right. I was certainly in the camp that wanted a more proven guy at a decent cost, say Sergio Romo for example. I'm also a guy that wanted to blow past the upper Tax line in the offseason to get a guy like Tony Watson. Don't talk to me about cost of a reliever at the deadline, almost all of them were very cheap. People keep talking about Eovaldi and he's the weapon for the bullpen and he's why we didn't get a reliever. How? He has great stuff that he can maintain. I don't see him getting a boost in the pen. He also doesn't strikeout many guys given his stuff its crazy low. He kinda reminds me of Joe Kelly, when he is on he's lights out, but that comes and goes all the time. That's about what we've seen so far. We already have Kelly. People can have whatever opinions they want, but I think if we don't win a title in the next two years that is on DD. He took over a very talented team stocked with talent, made a ton of trades and signed a lot of guys. This just might be the most talented Red Sox team every and frankly it should be. It was designed to win a championship almost at all costs. We didn't play it safe, we went all in both in terms of trading young players and long-term money. Sure you can't expect a championship in a given year per say, but a three year window isn't crazy. I mean this team is so talented that even Chris Sale not being able to pitch in the postseason wouldn't dooms us. I agree with you that Dombrowski will and probably should take heat if the bullpen dooms the Sox in the post-season. I like the "proven" bullpen arm, too. He tried with Herrera. That's not his fault. And the Giants didn't see themselves as sellers during the 7/31 deadline. They didn't until past the waiver deadline which didn't help the Sox at all. For whatever reason the Rays wanted no part of dealing Romo. They refused to deal him even during the 8/31 deadline. But yes, the Sox could have upgraded from the Hembree/Kelly/Thornburg tier of relievers if not the Barnes tier. Or they could have auditioned Buttrey in June the way they auditioned Brasier. I do agree with your point about if the Sox were going to go over the luxury tax limit anyways, then they should have gone after a Tony Watson. If they're barely over then they didn't plan accordingly. What I'm pushing back at is the idea that Dombrowski should lose his job if the Sox don't win the Series this year or next. He upgraded the major league talent. The trick is to do that and be able to build the next wave when it's needed. If he fails that, then I can see him being in trouble. Yes, he would earn criticism if his gamble to be passive on the relief pitcher trade market bites them or Eovaldi can't handle pitching in relief, but I just don't see why he should be fired as Pedro was implying. I don't now if he should lose his job. I like what he's done drafting player a ton frankly. I just think it's on him, a failure if we don't win. He was given more talent, trade chips, and money than almost any GM in History. If something crazy happens, ok its not his fault, but overall he might have walked into the best position of any GM/President ever. A loaded team, a loaded farm system, and owners willing to spend a ton of money. All that at a time tons of teams are rebuilding, not spending money, or staying under the luxury tax line.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 14, 2018 21:55:43 GMT -5
Dombrowski took 2 years to fire Farrell. He didn't clear up the Sox biggest need this year. Dombrowski also has also only traded for one or 2 prospects in his time here while trading away over a dozen of them.
Dombrowski hasn't done everything you could ask for as a GM. Go back to the Theo days, where the Sox were winning and bringing up a new impact prospect once every year it seems like. That was a example of a GM doing everything he could possibly do as a GM.
The rules are a bit different now, but the fact that Dombrowski almost always throws away value in trades isn't a good thing for a GM.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 15, 2018 0:24:50 GMT -5
Look I'm not a Dombrowski hater. I would actually prefer the Sox to win this year and have him stay for a long time, but he has only done a great job at only building the major league roster up. Sure, that's the most important thing, but it isn't the only or best way to build a ballclub.
All of the prospects you just named were players that the Cherrington and Theo regime built up. It's harder to build farm systems because the draft and minor league international free agency is capped and the draft compensation in free agency is nearly non existent now. Theo made a living taking advantage of both of these things routinely back in the day.
I think there's a good chance that Barnes, Brasier, Wright, and Eovaldi are really good to great this postseason in 2018. They certainly have the talent to be great. If they aren't however and Wright is allowing baserunners to score on wild pitches, Barnes melts in high leverage, if Brasier gets hit hard, if Eovaldi gives up way too much contact and it goes the wrong way on him, then Dombrowski should be at least considered to be on the hot seat. Boston isn't a fair town and nor it should be.
He had a chance to get Familia, Soria, and Yates to name a few names for the bullpen and whiffed. He also missed out on Watson before the season for just money like UMass mentioned too. Herrera shouldn't have been the Sox only option to go after because you don't know what the other team was going to do. Hopefully it works out in the end.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 15, 2018 1:08:48 GMT -5
Amazing. And I heaitate to ask, but why shouldn't Boston be a fair town?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 15, 2018 1:29:32 GMT -5
Amazing. And I heaitate to ask, but why shouldn't Boston be a fair town? This place is a pressure cooker and the expectations should be greater than the average baseball town, especially considering the money the Sox spend on payroll each year. That's just my opinion though.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 15, 2018 1:31:35 GMT -5
Amazing. And I heaitate to ask, but why shouldn't Boston be a fair town? This place is a pressure cooker and the expectations should be greater than the average baseball town, especially considering the money the Sox spend on payroll each year. That's just my opinion though. But why shouldn't Boston be a fair town??
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Post by jmei on Sept 15, 2018 7:48:26 GMT -5
This thread is heading a little downhill. Let’s try to stay on topic and avoid getting sucked into tangential arguments. Thanks.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 15, 2018 11:37:44 GMT -5
This thread is heading a little downhill. Let’s try to stay on topic and avoid getting sucked into tangential arguments. Thanks. So right. To be fair, though, the maelstrom of the past couple of pages has led to some strange places. I have arrived at a place where a postseason Bullpen of Kimbrel, Barnes, Brasier, Workman, Eovaldi, Wright and whomever works best among Hembree, Pom, BJ, Poyner, Kelly, Velasquez, etc.; plus cameos from one or more of Price, Porcello, ERod will not be a weakness. 'Nuff said.
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Post by voiceofreason on Sept 15, 2018 11:55:43 GMT -5
This thread is heading a little downhill. Let’s try to stay on topic and avoid getting sucked into tangential arguments. Thanks. So right. To be fair, though, the maelstrom of the past couple of pages has led to some strange places. I have arrived at a place where a postseason Bullpen of Kimbrel, Barnes, Brasier, Workman, Eovaldi, Wright and whomever works best among Hembree, Pom, BJ, Poyner, Kelly, Velasquez, etc.; plus cameos from one or more of Price, Porcello, ERod will not be a weakness. 'Nuff said. I agree with your list.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 19, 2018 9:18:50 GMT -5
Sox have now blown 12 of their last 24 save opportunities.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 19, 2018 15:14:37 GMT -5
I was hoping September would help sort out the bullpen. You could go with the guys that were pitching well. At this point I have no clue. Everytime it looks like someone might be ready to seize a spot, they go right back into crap mode. You might just end up picking names out of a hat for the last few spots at this rate.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 19, 2018 15:54:43 GMT -5
I was hoping September would help sort out the bullpen. You could go with the guys that were pitching well. At this point I have no clue. Everytime it looks like someone might be ready to seize a spot, they go right back into crap mode. You might just end up picking names out of a hat for the last few spots at this rate. I honestly am not worried about the last few spots I’m worried about the second spot. Basically, my only real hope is Kimbrel is sharp, Eovaldi can be on his game and pitch the 8th and Barnes is healthy and we can keep him away from the real late innings.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 19, 2018 16:41:50 GMT -5
I haven't heard anything about Barnes in weeks.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 19, 2018 16:46:30 GMT -5
I haven't heard anything about Barnes in weeks. He has been throwing long toss lately. He's expected to probably throw simulated games soon and then probably get into games in the last week of the season.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 19, 2018 17:03:07 GMT -5
I haven't heard anything about Barnes in weeks. He has been throwing long toss lately. He's expected to probably throw simulated games soon and then probably get into games in the last week of the season. Maybe it'll be good for his arm to get a month of rest if he can shake the rust off in time for the playoffs.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 19, 2018 17:58:01 GMT -5
He has been throwing long toss lately. He's expected to probably throw simulated games soon and then probably get into games in the last week of the season. Maybe it'll be good for his arm to get a month of rest if he can shake the rust off in time for the playoffs. Can't hurt, especially knowing how Barnes finished last year. This hip thing sounds more like a one month vacation.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 28, 2018 8:43:49 GMT -5
When Joe Kelly finally has success in, like, Anaheim or something, can we all agree not to complain that the Red Sox didn't resign him after five years of frustrating mediocrity?
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Sept 28, 2018 13:24:28 GMT -5
When Joe Kelly finally has success in, like, Anaheim or something, can we all agree not to complain that the Red Sox didn't resign him after five years of frustrating mediocrity? I was looking at the Athletics rotation and I was cringing thinking about how bad those guys would all get demolished in the AL East. Different animal. Joe Kelly could probably go out West and succeed, but he's not made for this division.
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