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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 16, 2019 12:26:15 GMT -5
Our love affair with Swiharts potential finally comes to an end. It does hurt a bit but he hasn't hit since 2105 and you can say he was never given a starters chance but he never earned it either. Just the way it goes sometimes right, like Henry Owens and Lars Anderson they don't all meet their potential. Maybe he does it somewhere else but that is a big maybe when nobody is willing to cough up anything. Good luck though Blake. I agree and could live with this if his replacement didn't have a .274 OPS or at least had potential about them. Didn't AJ Pierzynski catch Chris Sale?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 16, 2019 12:31:04 GMT -5
Wow. The Red Sox really messed this up badly.
This is good for Swihart and good for a team with the patience to let him develop at the major league level.
The Red Sox had the chance to do that in 2016. They had a bad week and he dropped a popup behind the plate. Next thing you know, he's in Pawtucket, and then having his time wasted in LF, comes back to Boston, gets hurt playing LF, while Sandy Leon has the hot streak of his life, and his days in Boston are numbered.
Now in 2019 the starters have no spring training and Vazquez has been less than inspiring with the bat and glove, so now let's dump Blake Swihart. It was all his fault that the pitchers sucked.
So the Sox are left with two catchers who can't hit at all. Like virtually no chance of being even mediocre offensively. It will be an offensive black hole of suck. They got away with that in 2018 so they'll press their luck in 2019 having a spot in an AL lineup that's the equivalent of the pitcher hitting.
Meanwhile some team will be smart enough to let him play, deal with his growing pains, and then watch him actually be a decent stick behind the plate. I think he'll be a .270ish hitter with some pop - maybe a dozen homers per year, a strong armed catcher who might ascend to being an average catcher. That description would put him among the best catchers in the league. He has the talent to reach that level. He was headed there after an effective tryout in the 2nd half of 2015.
If the Sox wanted to upgrade the position they should have dealt away Vazquez and called up Leon to back up Swihart.
And I do think Guidas is correct in that it has that air of desperation like it did when they brought Doug Mirabelli back to stop all those Josh Bard passed balls.
I shake my head, because in a way Swihart reminded me a little bit of Rich Gedman. Gedman had a little more pop and his hit tool was questionable, but he had a strong arm and an ability to learn how to call a better game and get better and blocking pitches. He wasn't an instance success but the Sox stuck with him and by 1984 - 1986 he was one of the better catchers in the game.
He got a chance that Blake Swihart was never given with the Red Sox and that's a damn shame. Leon's defense and game calling will be welcome, but losing what Blake Swihart is not going to get a chance to become sucks.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 16, 2019 12:35:26 GMT -5
I'm wondering about conspiracy theories here.
Did the Sox plan on releasing Swihart in spring training but his brother's passing made them not want to do that? Doesn't make sense because they didn't know for sure that Leon would clear waivers and accept his assignment to Pawtucket. Maybe they figured he'd be back?
Or maybe there was that game he caught E-Rod against Seattle and the pitch selection was totally different than the game plan they had set up? I think I remember Levangie saying something to that effect and it made me think, "Uh-oh."
Or maybe Guidas is right and this is Doug Mirabelli panic situation all over again and it was easier to dump Swihart than Vazquez?
I guess I'm just at a loss. I hope Cora illuminates on what's going on here.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 16, 2019 12:36:49 GMT -5
Our love affair with Swiharts potential finally comes to an end. It does hurt a bit but he hasn't hit since 2105 and you can say he was never given a starters chance but he never earned it either. Just the way it goes sometimes right, like Henry Owens and Lars Anderson they don't all meet their potential. Maybe he does it somewhere else but that is a big maybe when nobody is willing to cough up anything. Good luck though Blake. Only difference is that no one thought we gave up early on Owens and Anderson. This feels more like trading Reddick before he really got a chance. Trading Shaw because he wouldn't get better type thing. I've seen enough to know Swihart if given playing time is at worst a good backup catcher. You can't expect him to get better when they just don't play him much.
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 16, 2019 12:43:23 GMT -5
Our love affair with Swiharts potential finally comes to an end. It does hurt a bit but he hasn't hit since 2105 and you can say he was never given a starters chance but he never earned it either. Just the way it goes sometimes right, like Henry Owens and Lars Anderson they don't all meet their potential. Maybe he does it somewhere else but that is a big maybe when nobody is willing to cough up anything. Good luck though Blake. When is our love affair with Vazquez's potential going to come to an end? When he can hit like he did that 1 season or close to it and his D and arm return. If not then it will be back to the drawing board. Until then we can make due with Leon and CV like last year. I don't know what it is but catchers like Tony Pena, Tek and Leon get pitchers to pitch better. Is it confidence, game calling or not being afraid to throw it in the dirt I don't know maybe all of that and more but it is a real thing and it makes a difference. How many runs did they score last year with a blackhole in the order?
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Post by Smittyw on Apr 16, 2019 12:52:50 GMT -5
Should have designated Nunez, called up Sandy, and made Vazquez the new backup infielder...problem solved.
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 16, 2019 12:58:46 GMT -5
Our love affair with Swiharts potential finally comes to an end. It does hurt a bit but he hasn't hit since 2105 and you can say he was never given a starters chance but he never earned it either. Just the way it goes sometimes right, like Henry Owens and Lars Anderson they don't all meet their potential. Maybe he does it somewhere else but that is a big maybe when nobody is willing to cough up anything. Good luck though Blake. Only difference is that no one thought we gave up early on Owens and Anderson. This feels more like trading Reddick before he really got a chance. Trading Shaw because he wouldn't get better type thing. I've seen enough to know Swihart if given playing time is at worst a good backup catcher. You can't expect him to get better when they just don't play him much. So you are right and all the other GMs out there are wrong? Maybe you should apply for the job of running a team, just kiddig of course. Fact is he got a chance, maybe not a great one but I'm guessing Cora and the pitchers are better judge than any of us.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 16, 2019 13:05:26 GMT -5
Only difference is that no one thought we gave up early on Owens and Anderson. This feels more like trading Reddick before he really got a chance. Trading Shaw because he wouldn't get better type thing. I've seen enough to know Swihart if given playing time is at worst a good backup catcher. You can't expect him to get better when they just don't play him much. So you are right and all the other GMs out there are wrong? Maybe you should apply for the job of running a team, just kiddig of course. Fact is he got a chance, maybe not a great one but I'm guessing Cora and the pitchers are better judge than any of us. But Leon got through waivers which means no MLB team wanted him. He is getting called up with a .274 OPS. Swihart is likely going to get claimed. Wouldn't that be some sort of evidence as to who is more valuable than the other? Vazquez was also catching the majority of the games. Why does he continue to skate? Having a redundancy of terrible hitters behind the plate doesn't help. I like having 1 defensive and 1 offensive minded catcher.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 16, 2019 13:07:08 GMT -5
So you are right and all the other GMs out there are wrong? Maybe you should apply for the job of running a team, just kiddig of course. Fact is he got a chance, maybe not a great one but I'm guessing Cora and the pitchers are better judge than any of us. But Leon got through waivers which means no MLB team wanted him. He is getting called up with a .274 OPS. Swihart is likely going to get claimed. Wouldn't that be some sort of evidence as to who is more valuable than the other? Vazquez was also catching the majority of the games. Why does he continue to skate? Having a redundancy of terrible hitters behind the plate doesn't help. I like having 1 defensive and 1 offensive minded catcher. I wouldn't exactly say that no team wanted Leon, but I would say that no team wanted Leon at the price tag of 2.5 million. That was the reason he stuck around at Pawtucket rather than go make minimum wage elsewhere. I'm sure he'd have caught on with somebody for about 500K.
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Post by chrisfromnc on Apr 16, 2019 13:10:09 GMT -5
I'm extremely disappointed. They've had three catchers since November and knew they only needed two. Seems like a poor handling of the resources of the three catchers. I'm not smart enough to say what Swihart's actual trade value is. I guess his value is like that of anything, in that he is worth what someone is willing to pay. To think that they couldn't have traded him or packaged him in a trade seems to be a very uncreative way to look at the possibilities.
I think they have handled him poorly and I hope he has a great career (but not with a rival as some have said). I think we will miss him a lot beginning in this season.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 16, 2019 13:18:54 GMT -5
Does anybody here have an opinion on what the Sox can acquire for Swihart in a deal? I don't think he clears waivers. I think somebody will claim him. The return would probably be marginal.
Now the Sox have 3 major league ready (debatable) catchers who are all reputed to be no hit good glove fielders in Leon, Vazquez, and Centeno. So there is no hope offensively for the position at any point in the mid to high minors.
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Post by Guidas on Apr 16, 2019 13:34:03 GMT -5
Should have designated Nunez, called up Sandy, and made Vazquez the new backup infielder...problem solved. Cora’s man crush on Nuñez will preclude this from ever happening, even though Lin is a standard deviation better and, if a RH bat is needed, Chavis can butcher a ball just as well in the field as Nuñey, but would hit significantly better.
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Post by libertine on Apr 16, 2019 13:34:21 GMT -5
When is our love affair with Vazquez's potential going to come to an end? When he can hit like he did that 1 season or close to it and his D and arm return. If not then it will be back to the drawing board. Until then we can make due with Leon and CV like last year. I don't know what it is but catchers like Tony Pena, Tek and Leon get pitchers to pitch better. Is it confidence, game calling or not being afraid to throw it in the dirt I don't know maybe all of that and more but it is a real thing and it makes a difference. How many runs did they score last year with a blackhole in the order? I don't think Vazquez will ever get that close offensively again. And his defense has regressed. Sale couldn't pitch to him. It was the reason that Swihart was DFA'd. I will be more than a bit suspicious if Sale's velocity all of a sudden dramatically increases now.
As far as the offense goes, this is 2019. We ain't in Kansas anymore Toto. The last game of the Orioles series we had 1 run on 4 hits against Straily and bunch of their bullpen arms. Leon and Vazquez catching is going to help this how?
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Post by libertine on Apr 16, 2019 13:39:46 GMT -5
I think this Chris Hatfield tweet is spot on...
"Next time you're upset a player isn't blindly loyal to your favorite team, remember things like this. Being in this organization has been a net negative for Swihart since 2016."
So when Mookie goes it won't upset me as much when I put it into this ^^^ context.
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
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Post by radiohix on Apr 16, 2019 14:00:13 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion here but seeing Blake the last year and a half got me sceptical about his offensive potential. Don't get me wrong I still think he has a better offensive ceiling than the other 2 but the dude has some serious contact issues: Last year he struck out in 27.5% of his plate appearance that's bad when you're not punishing the ball (.099 IsoP) even for this year it doesn't seem that the issue is going away... Small sample size caveat and all of course but when you look at his contact rate for pitches in the zone (79.4% vs MLB avg of 84.2%) you got to wander if his offense is potentially that MUCH better than CV's who makes more contact than he does. All I'm saying is it's not a slam dunk that Swihart ends up with a much better bat than Vazquez.
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Post by Guidas on Apr 16, 2019 14:14:55 GMT -5
Swihart getting DFA’d is my least favorite Endgame spoiler so far.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 16, 2019 14:21:56 GMT -5
It's amazing that this board isn't running all 30 teams in baseball.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2019 14:38:13 GMT -5
I'm fine with trading Swihart, but only if we were to acquire a better catcher. Leon is not better than Swihart.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 16, 2019 14:38:52 GMT -5
It's amazing that this board isn't running all 30 teams in baseball. You're right. It is. Dissenting opinions should never be given. After all 30 teams get every decision they make correct as they are all infallible, so who are we peons to actually question a decision? We should just shut this board down and change it to the Red Sox stamp of approval website. That way if some agree with a move or think it's a good move, it becomes meaningless because we're all supposed to agree anyways, and if some disagree, well, why would anybody ever do that? Swihart has always been a lightning rod for opinions with people, for what he can become and others who don't think he'll develop as hoped for. What's wrong with discussing whether people think it's a mistake or the right thing to do?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 16, 2019 14:47:42 GMT -5
images.app.goo.gl/H8dm72cDGg61LB2o7Meanwhile Vazquez and his horrible offensive numbers and his average at best overall defensive game skates by because of a contract. This mediocre offense this year just got WAY worse. Goes to show that this organization doesn't always make the right calls. Took Cora, management, and the pitching staff all of the 3 weeks to throw Swihart under the bus. Hope his head didn't bounce too far off the pavement when it happened.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Apr 16, 2019 14:58:38 GMT -5
It's amazing that this board isn't running all 30 teams in baseball. You're right. It is. Dissenting opinions should never be given. After all 30 teams get every decision they make correct as they are all infallible, so who are we peons to actually question a decision? We should just shut this board down and change it to the Red Sox stamp of approval website. That way if some agree with a move or think it's a good move, it becomes meaningless because we're all supposed to agree anyways, and if some disagree, well, why would anybody ever do that? Swihart has always been a lightning rod for opinions with people, for what he can become and others who don't think he'll develop as hoped for. What's wrong with discussing whether people think it's a mistake or the right thing to do? There are plenty of instances where I'm comfortable disagreeing with management. Nunez is bad and shouldn't play. John Ferrell was lousy at managing a bullpen. But you're really confident in your ability to evaluate catchers and catcher defense better than the team? I'm certainly not. I'd feel that way even if the numbers favored Swihart (which they don't). The Vazquez hate is crazy.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 16, 2019 15:06:33 GMT -5
You're right. It is. Dissenting opinions should never be given. After all 30 teams get every decision they make correct as they are all infallible, so who are we peons to actually question a decision? We should just shut this board down and change it to the Red Sox stamp of approval website. That way if some agree with a move or think it's a good move, it becomes meaningless because we're all supposed to agree anyways, and if some disagree, well, why would anybody ever do that? Swihart has always been a lightning rod for opinions with people, for what he can become and others who don't think he'll develop as hoped for. What's wrong with discussing whether people think it's a mistake or the right thing to do? There are plenty of instances where I'm comfortable disagreeing with management. Nunez is bad and shouldn't play. John Ferrell was lousy at managing a bullpen. But you're really confident in your ability to evaluate catchers and catcher defense better than the team? I'm certainly not. I'd feel that way even if the numbers favored Swihart (which they don't). The Vazquez hate is crazy. Have you checked Vazquez's batting line the past 2 seasons? There's also a lot to be desired if you watch him day to day defensively.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 16, 2019 15:12:16 GMT -5
Color me confused with the Swihart takes about his bat.
We currently have starters with OPS+ of 69, 13, 77, and 0. Our bench minus Swihart is -29, -29, -16, 55, and -100 for the guys that have played. You then have Swihart with an OPS+ of 86.
We needed to make some changes, but this wasn't the move that made the most sense. He's been one of your better bats and the only bench guy that has hit so far. Like if he sucked in a few months ok, yet right now is shocking. Like what changed in the last few weeks?
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Post by fenwaydouble on Apr 16, 2019 15:15:53 GMT -5
There are plenty of instances where I'm comfortable disagreeing with management. Nunez is bad and shouldn't play. John Ferrell was lousy at managing a bullpen. But you're really confident in your ability to evaluate catchers and catcher defense better than the team? I'm certainly not. I'd feel that way even if the numbers favored Swihart (which they don't). The Vazquez hate is crazy. Have you checked Vazquez's batting line the past 2 seasons? There's also a lot to be desired if you watch him day to day defensively. Have you checked Swihart's?
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Apr 16, 2019 15:16:24 GMT -5
What a pathetic decision this is.
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