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Catcher in 2019 (4/16: Swihart DFA'd)
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 16, 2019 18:34:08 GMT -5
So I was right about this, and yet completely baffled by the sequence of events here.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 16, 2019 18:49:53 GMT -5
Well, I'm glad to see Sandy Leon has fixed everything.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Apr 16, 2019 20:16:33 GMT -5
Mission accomplished.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Apr 17, 2019 0:35:00 GMT -5
So I was right about this, and yet completely baffled by the sequence of events here. I honestly thought they'd made their choice for a number of reasons but I was wrong... again. Much less flexibility now. Inscrutable for me also.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 17, 2019 0:57:20 GMT -5
90% chance there's a major injury to Vazquez or Leon within the next week.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 17, 2019 0:59:19 GMT -5
John Tomase @jtomase
It appears that Sandy Leon is not the answer.
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 17, 2019 7:58:40 GMT -5
90% chance there's a major injury to Vazquez or Leon within the next week. "Fortunately" there's also a 50% chance Juan Centeno is better than Vazquez and Leon. That says more about Vazquez and Leon than Centeno, though.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,083
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Post by cdj on Apr 17, 2019 9:29:44 GMT -5
Thank god Chris sale had Sandy to throw to last night! Problem solved!
I hate what they did. It’s the definition of low reward/high risk and they did it without giving swihart a real shot
In hindsight what horrific roster management it was to keep him on the team all of last year
I feel so bad for the kid. He’s been yanked around by the organization forever, he deserves much much better
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 17, 2019 9:43:20 GMT -5
The narrative that Sandy Leon replacing Blake Swihart is going to fix all of their problems is just plain stupid. I mean should they not make any changes to the team unless the change is the solution to every single problem? Is every change going to be sarcastically ridiculed or praised every time now? Erasmo Ramirez called up, season saved!
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 17, 2019 9:46:19 GMT -5
The narrative that Sandy Leon replacing Blake Swihart is going to fix all of their problems is just plain stupid. I mean should they not make any changes to the team unless the change is the solution to every single problem? Is every change going to be sarcastically ridiculed or praised every time now? Erasmo Ramirez called up, season saved! I think it's more the idea that 15 days ago Blake Swihart was a better fit for the team than Sandy Leon, and the problem in those 15 days hasn't been Blake Swihart and the solution most definitely isn't Sandy Leon. I don't even know if it's the wrong roster move, but it really feels like a bad decision-making process. And I actually have a bigger problem with that.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 17, 2019 9:59:26 GMT -5
The narrative that Sandy Leon replacing Blake Swihart is going to fix all of their problems is just plain stupid. I mean should they not make any changes to the team unless the change is the solution to every single problem? Is every change going to be sarcastically ridiculed or praised every time now? Erasmo Ramirez called up, season saved! I think it's more the idea that 15 days ago Blake Swihart was a better fit for the team than Sandy Leon, and the problem in those 15 days hasn't been Blake Swihart and the solution most definitely isn't Sandy Leon. I don't even know if it's the wrong roster move, but it really feels like a bad decision-making process. And I actually have a bigger problem with that. I assume you'd think the same way about any possible change that they make since it has only been 15 days and there isn't just one problem. Is that a reason to not make changes? If they didn't make changes, people would be demanding for some to be made. Now they're ridiculing it because a change was made. Bottom line is that it sucks that they're so bad and there are no easy fixes. But it's going to be a long season if all we hear is 'Sale got his binky back, that fixed everything.' The funny thing will be that at some point they will have turned it around regardless of Swihart and Leon, and people will almost be forced to not criticize the move because they did actually get better.
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 17, 2019 10:02:15 GMT -5
I think it's more the idea that 15 days ago Blake Swihart was a better fit for the team than Sandy Leon, and the problem in those 15 days hasn't been Blake Swihart and the solution most definitely isn't Sandy Leon. I don't even know if it's the wrong roster move, but it really feels like a bad decision-making process. And I actually have a bigger problem with that. I assume you'd think the same way about any possible change that they make since it has only been 15 days and there isn't just one problem. Is that a reason to not make changes? If they didn't make changes, people would be demanding for some to be made. Now they're ridiculing it because a change was made. Bottom line is that it sucks that they're so bad and there are no easy fixes. But it's going to be a long season if all we hear is 'Sale got his binky back, that fixed everything.' They've had like four years to evaluate the Swihart vs. Leon question, 15 days shouldn't have changed anything. That doesn't mean make no change or to not keep making evaluations, it means the process behind this specific change is nonsense. I agree that people who equate correlation with causation are frustrating.
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Post by dcb26 on Apr 17, 2019 10:40:11 GMT -5
They've had like four years to evaluate the Swihart vs. Leon question, 15 days shouldn't have changed anything. That doesn't mean make no change or to not keep making evaluations, it means the process behind this specific change is nonsense. Is it really that crazy to think they picked Swihart over Leon mostly because they were comfortable that they wouldn't lose Leon, but decided "we'll give Swihart one more look, but if/whenever we feel Leon would be the better guy to have on the team, we'll move on from Swihart" and that that moment arrived already? Just because it's only been 18 games doesn't make it impossible for that to have been the thought process. If this was purely a panic move, then sure, it's really dumb - but just because fans are panicking doesn't automatically mean the team has become completely irrational in its decision making.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 17, 2019 10:48:16 GMT -5
So I was right about this, and yet completely baffled by the sequence of events here. I honestly thought they'd made their choice for a number of reasons but I was wrong... again. Much less flexibility now. Inscrutable for me also. I shouldn't even say I was "right", the team did the thing I suggested they do in the first place, but that could still be the wrong decision (I'm still not the biggest Swihart guy, but I'll admit I've been persuaded that he does have slightly more upside than Sandy Leon). It's just that they did the thing that I thought they should do, and yet did it in such a weird backwards way that I now doubt my own judgement on the matter more.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 17, 2019 10:50:00 GMT -5
They've had like four years to evaluate the Swihart vs. Leon question, 15 days shouldn't have changed anything. That doesn't mean make no change or to not keep making evaluations, it means the process behind this specific change is nonsense. Is it really that crazy to think they picked Swihart over Leon mostly because they were comfortable that they wouldn't lose Leon, but decided "we'll give Swihart one more look, but if/whenever we feel Leon would be the better guy to have on the team, we'll move on from Swihart" and that that moment arrived already? Just because it's only been 18 games doesn't make it impossible for that to have been the thought process. If this was purely a panic move, then sure, it's really dumb - but just because fans are panicking doesn't automatically mean the team has become completely irrational in its decision making. My answer is "Yes." it hasn't even been 18 hands for Swihart - he's had 29 plate appearances and 54 innings behind the plate (during which, btw, his basic defensive numbers were comparable to Vazquez's). I fail to see how 54 innings was a significant enough sample here. I wouldn't have loved if Swihart would have been the odd man out entering the season, but that would've been better than this, which shows, as noted, clearly flawed decision-making.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 17, 2019 10:52:02 GMT -5
They've had like four years to evaluate the Swihart vs. Leon question, 15 days shouldn't have changed anything. That doesn't mean make no change or to not keep making evaluations, it means the process behind this specific change is nonsense. Is it really that crazy to think they picked Swihart over Leon mostly because they were comfortable that they wouldn't lose Leon, but decided "we'll give Swihart one more look, but if/whenever we feel Leon would be the better guy to have on the team, we'll move on from Swihart" and that that moment arrived already? Just because it's only been 18 games doesn't make it impossible for that to have been the thought process. If this was purely a panic move, then sure, it's really dumb - but just because fans are panicking doesn't automatically mean the team has become completely irrational in its decision making. I'd only say no way they knew Leon wouldn't get claimed. Like it had to be 50-50 at that point. So they picked Swihart knowing they might lose Leon and were ok with that. Nevermind it's not like Swihart has sucked so far this year. He's been about what everyone expected. By far the best hitter on the bench and a very good OPS+ of 86 for a catcher.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 17, 2019 10:53:27 GMT -5
Is it really that crazy to think they picked Swihart over Leon mostly because they were comfortable that they wouldn't lose Leon, but decided "we'll give Swihart one more look, but if/whenever we feel Leon would be the better guy to have on the team, we'll move on from Swihart" and that that moment arrived already? Just because it's only been 18 games doesn't make it impossible for that to have been the thought process. If this was purely a panic move, then sure, it's really dumb - but just because fans are panicking doesn't automatically mean the team has become completely irrational in its decision making. My answer is "Yes." it hasn't even been 18 hands for Swihart - he's had 29 plate appearances and 54 innings behind the plate (during which, btw, his basic defensive numbers were comparable to Vazquez's). I fail to see how 54 innings was a significant enough sample here. I would love to hear them explain what they saw in 54 innings that they didn't see in the last, what, eight years?
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 17, 2019 10:56:58 GMT -5
They've had like four years to evaluate the Swihart vs. Leon question, 15 days shouldn't have changed anything. That doesn't mean make no change or to not keep making evaluations, it means the process behind this specific change is nonsense. Is it really that crazy to think they picked Swihart over Leon mostly because they were comfortable that they wouldn't lose Leon, but decided "we'll give Swihart one more look, but if/whenever we feel Leon would be the better guy to have on the team, we'll move on from Swihart" and that that moment arrived already? Just because it's only been 18 games doesn't make it impossible for that to have been the thought process. If this was purely a panic move, then sure, it's really dumb - but just because fans are panicking doesn't automatically mean the team has become completely irrational in its decision making. And in those 15 days what was proven, exactly? Leon had a .247 OPS in AAA. By comparison, JD Martinez's batting average is .338. Last year, Leon hit .177 with an OPS of .511. To call him a bad hitter is an understatement. Chris Davis is having a better year at the plate than Leon. It's not like the Red Sox had two guys that were tough to decide from. It's not like they're testing between Devers and Chavis at 3B. They had 1 kid who once had the highest ceiling on the planet, was mishandled, but was still young enough to put it all together as catchers age later and another guy who is depressingly bad at the plate. Their logic behind this was merely, "well, Leon is the best game caller ever". Well, if he was so great defensively and calling a game, why did no team feel like he was worth 2.5 million to them? In his first game sample, Chris Sale had 97-98 MPH stuff and gave up 4 runs in 5 IP. He then caught someone who was called up from AAA. Without looking it up, I'm assuming Leon was catching him in AAA. He gave up 4 runs. Leon also went 0-fer, struck out twice (one on 3 pitches), and threw a ball into CF. No, I'm not blaming Leon for any of the runs, but that's my point. I never blamed Swihart for catching 89 MPH Chris Sale or Porcello and Eovaldi who suddenly can't find the plate with Google Maps. Swihart looked fine catching that 1-0 bullpen game against Arizona. When the Red Sox lost 9-5 to the Orioles, who was catching then? Why does Vazquez continue to skate when he was the one catching the majority of the games? Swihart should be/had been the starting catcher this year and evaluated until the deadline. Just because I want to keep selling just how bad of a hitter Leon is (at least right now), Chris Sale's career OPS is .280.
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bosox
Veteran
Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Apr 17, 2019 11:12:10 GMT -5
Is it really that crazy to think they picked Swihart over Leon mostly because they were comfortable that they wouldn't lose Leon, but decided "we'll give Swihart one more look, but if/whenever we feel Leon would be the better guy to have on the team, we'll move on from Swihart" and that that moment arrived already? Just because it's only been 18 games doesn't make it impossible for that to have been the thought process. If this was purely a panic move, then sure, it's really dumb - but just because fans are panicking doesn't automatically mean the team has become completely irrational in its decision making. I'd only say no way they knew Leon wouldn't get claimed. Like it had to be 50-50 at that point. So they picked Swihart knowing they might lose Leon and were ok with that. Nevermind it's not like Swihart has sucked so far this year. He's been about what everyone expected. By far the best hitter on the bench and a very good OPS+ of 86 for a catcher. To add to that, if they had lost Leon, they had Centeno who is probably similar to Leon and who Cora is familiar with while with the Astros. It was nice to be able to see a catcher that could hit and could run.
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Post by soxcentral on Apr 17, 2019 11:41:31 GMT -5
At the risk of this post looking dumb within hours, I’ll throw out the contrary view that the FO now thinks they can sneak Swihart through waivers with rosters set, and get him regular playing time in AAA. Otherwise I agree, the timing of this is just so odd.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 17, 2019 12:39:06 GMT -5
I actually feel bad for Leon in this situation. He was already struggling at the plate (not that he was ever great to begin with), but now they're trying to make him into the savior of this rotation. Just unnecessary pressure for a guy who is a career stop-gap.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 17, 2019 13:00:37 GMT -5
At the risk of this post looking dumb within hours, I’ll throw out the contrary view that the FO now thinks they can sneak Swihart through waivers with rosters set, and get him regular playing time in AAA. Otherwise I agree, the timing of this is just so odd. One scout I was texting with yesterday: "He gone." A different scout I was texting with yesterday: "I could see us claiming him."
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Post by soxcentral on Apr 17, 2019 13:15:28 GMT -5
At the risk of this post looking dumb within hours, I’ll throw out the contrary view that the FO now thinks they can sneak Swihart through waivers with rosters set, and get him regular playing time in AAA. Otherwise I agree, the timing of this is just so odd. One scout I was texting with yesterday: "He gone." A different scout I was texting with yesterday: "I could see us claiming him." It certainly is likely he gets claimed, I'm just hoping that looking back we can all say, "I may or may not agree with the move but at least it makes some sense." Another logical reason for the timing is they need a better trade chip to pick up a platoon 2B after seeing the state of affairs there, knowing Swihart is of interest to a team that has a player they like.
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Post by libertine on Apr 17, 2019 16:28:46 GMT -5
One scout I was texting with yesterday: "He gone." A different scout I was texting with yesterday: "I could see us claiming him." It certainly is likely he gets claimed, I'm just hoping that looking back we can all say, "I may or may not agree with the move but at least it makes some sense." Another logical reason for the timing is they need a better trade chip to pick up a platoon 2B after seeing the state of affairs there, knowing Swihart is of interest to a team that has a player they like. For me I am almost certain that looking back at this it will make as little sense as it does now. The only thing I am certain of is finally Swihart gets to start getting on with his career.
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bosox
Veteran
Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Apr 17, 2019 16:32:37 GMT -5
At the risk of this post looking dumb within hours, I’ll throw out the contrary view that the FO now thinks they can sneak Swihart through waivers with rosters set, and get him regular playing time in AAA. Otherwise I agree, the timing of this is just so odd. One scout I was texting with yesterday: "He gone." A different scout I was texting with yesterday: "I could see us claiming him." I hope it doesn't get to the point of a team claiming him. Hopefully, they can get something for him in a trade. I think the Giants and Brewers have traded for fill-in catchers recently and Swihart has upside and low salary. And, while there's that ray of hope that he sneaks through waivers, let's hope he can go somewhere and stay in the majors vs back in AAA.
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