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Mid-Season Acquistion Time
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Post by soxjim on Jun 29, 2019 20:30:03 GMT -5
I remember hearing Cora explain his reasoning behind Sale's appearance. He felt the lead had to be big enough - and he felt 4 runs were big enough to use Sale instead of Kimbrel. By the World Series, Cora felt that Kimbrel was more back to his normal self. He felt he was tipping his pitches and he had something changed up after Game 4 of the ALCS. Kimbrel closed out Game 5 of the ALCS allowing just a walk. Kimbrel closed out the 8-4 Game 1 victory with a 1-2-3 inning. Kimbrel closed out the 4-2 Game 2 victory with a 1-2-3 inning. Kimbrel bailed David Price out of trouble in the 9th inning of Game 3 and I believe he pitched a scoreless 10th as well. That's 4 good outings in a row. During garbage time, with a 9-4 lead, Kimbrel gave up a 2-run HR to Kiké Hernandez - but I don't think that was enough to shake Cora's faith in Kimbrel. And like I said, if the game had been closer, I believe we would have seen Kimbrel. I think Cora felt that Sale had 1 strong inning in him, felt he was a huge contributor, and wanted to give him a chance and felt that he had Barnes, Eovaldi, and Kimbrel available if he got in trouble, but with a 4 run lead he had rope to work with. I'm going off a lot of memory so it might be an argument in futility. I just remember Benny bailing out Kimbrel big time in two separate occasions and just looked very shaky. I get not going away from him in the ALCS because you still had another round and you wanted to keep showing him faith. When you're 3 outs away from putting away the World Series whether it's 1 run or 4 runs I feel like you have to put in your best guy to just end it. There's no more games after that, so why not? Why dink around with a lesser option? It's not like teams haven't blown 4 run leads in the 9th before. I don't think there was a single person that was upset seeing Sale get the chance to end it instead of Kimbrel. If he was vintage Kimbrel I think it might have been different. No. The below link says it all. You're more of a "the cup is half empty," type which is fine. Absolutely fine. You are spot on with many things. But last year the team was dominant while you must remember on here there was quite a big of negativity for a 108 win team. And it wasn't just here. I live closer to NY and nearly all Yanks announcers/ analysts and fans thought they were going to win despite our tremendous 108 win season. During the season Cashman mouthed off. And even after season was over Hal was saying he still thought his team was better. Even a paper I still get in my area the Sports Editor said Sox weren't built to succeed in playoffs. I emailed him and explained why his opinion was wrong/hogwash. You have a fear of 'we still might lose even though our bullpen was awesome and we were among one of the greatest teams ever over the last 40-50 years leading at 5-1 in the 9th." I'm sure Cora had some fear but he had more confidence in his guy would get the job done even if it wasn't his best. The link specifically says he wouldn't have used Sale in a 1 or 2 run game. So this tells you Sale wasn't the best alternative. But the fact he put him in tells you that the best manager in baseball last year had 100% confidence his ACE from April to August who was serviceable in October could get the job done. You probably look at it as "risk." Cora probably looked at it as "reward to his ACE." weei.radio.com/blogs/john-tomase/chris-sale-finishes-world-series-1-2-3-ninth-inning-red-sox-beat-dodgers
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 29, 2019 20:32:57 GMT -5
I don't know, if you have the chance to close out the World Series I think you go with the guy you feel is throwing the ball the best. Can you imagine if they blew that game because Cora was worried about how Sale felt? I remember that Benintendi bailed out Kimbrel twice with circus catches. I don't know if you see Sale there if Kimbrel was on lockdown. We can agree to disagree here big time. The sox bullpen was strong enough with Eovaldi and Barnes to be used to bail out Sale. You had said Sale was "serviceable" so how can someone that is just serviceable be the top option? And your point of "can you imagine . . . ?" -- Please don't take this the wrong way. Please don't. But imo your point of "can you imagine" is a microcosm of the false fear many had on here last year. After what you saw what the SOx did in reg season, then you saw how they dismantled the Yanks, and then how you saw how they dismantled the Astros then you saw them up 3-01 on Dodgers and up 5-1 in the 9th and how you saw Cora manage clearly being the best mgr in baseball last year - after all this - could I imagine a guy who you called "serviceable in the playoffs" blowing a 4 run lead? No--- last year --- I can't imagine what you fear and maybe still are still fearing (the fact you bring it up). As you say Kimbrel wasn't lockdown yet Cora still used him to close. Yet there were others performing far better than Kimbrel in the playoffs. AT 5- 1-- Cora didn't even have Kimbrel warming up but didn't he have Eovaldi? And it's as the posterredsoxchamp said: "Think of it this way. Kimbrel was far worse in the ALCS yet when the Sox had a chance to close out Houston with a 4-1 lead Cora turned to Kimbrel to finish off the series - and he finally had a scoreless inning." IMO COra did not manage / believe in your pov -"Can you imagine . . ." I'm sure he imagined it but imo he would have had enougg confidence the way the pen was going to throw in anyone (including Kimbrel_ to close down at 5-1. Other than Kimbrel; the Sox pen was aweome and Kimbrel had not let up any runs in 3 appearances of games 1 though 3. SO I doubt game 4 rattled Cora to "not trust Kimbrel" in the manner you speak. I might be mistaken, but wasn't the million inning game the night prior? I don't think Eovaldi was available. As masterful as Cora was, he'd have been eviscerated if the Red Sox blew that game and there'd be a strong push to get him fired. It's not unfathomable to imagine a team blowing a 4 run lead. Also, bear in mind that besides Kimbrel being shaky, he's a guy you need to pitch in a clean inning. He has shown time and time again that he falls apart going multiple innings or working with runners on.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 29, 2019 22:16:19 GMT -5
We can agree to disagree here big time. The sox bullpen was strong enough with Eovaldi and Barnes to be used to bail out Sale. You had said Sale was "serviceable" so how can someone that is just serviceable be the top option? And your point of "can you imagine . . . ?" -- Please don't take this the wrong way. Please don't. But imo your point of "can you imagine" is a microcosm of the false fear many had on here last year. After what you saw what the SOx did in reg season, then you saw how they dismantled the Yanks, and then how you saw how they dismantled the Astros then you saw them up 3-01 on Dodgers and up 5-1 in the 9th and how you saw Cora manage clearly being the best mgr in baseball last year - after all this - could I imagine a guy who you called "serviceable in the playoffs" blowing a 4 run lead? No--- last year --- I can't imagine what you fear and maybe still are still fearing (the fact you bring it up). As you say Kimbrel wasn't lockdown yet Cora still used him to close. Yet there were others performing far better than Kimbrel in the playoffs. AT 5- 1-- Cora didn't even have Kimbrel warming up but didn't he have Eovaldi? And it's as the posterredsoxchamp said: "Think of it this way. Kimbrel was far worse in the ALCS yet when the Sox had a chance to close out Houston with a 4-1 lead Cora turned to Kimbrel to finish off the series - and he finally had a scoreless inning." IMO COra did not manage / believe in your pov -"Can you imagine . . ." I'm sure he imagined it but imo he would have had enougg confidence the way the pen was going to throw in anyone (including Kimbrel_ to close down at 5-1. Other than Kimbrel; the Sox pen was aweome and Kimbrel had not let up any runs in 3 appearances of games 1 though 3. SO I doubt game 4 rattled Cora to "not trust Kimbrel" in the manner you speak. I might be mistaken, but wasn't the million inning game the night prior? I don't think Eovaldi was available. As masterful as Cora was, he'd have been eviscerated if the Red Sox blew that game and there'd be a strong push to get him fired. It's not unfathomable to imagine a team blowing a 4 run lead. Also, bear in mind that besides Kimbrel being shaky, he's a guy you need to pitch in a clean inning. He has shown time and time again that he falls apart going multiple innings or working with runners on. No. The previous night was the Game 4 comeback in which the Dodgers took out Hill in the 7th on a miscommunication, didn't use Urias or Baez when it was pretty obvious they should have and had every one of their relievers give up at least an earned run. That night was the night Eovaldi was supposed to start, but E-Rod got the start instead and Eovaldi was unavailable for Game 4. My thought was that we might see him start a potential Game 7. Didn't expect to see him until then. However if you watch the game you'd see that he was one of the relievers warming up during the 8th and/or 9th inning. But the fact of the matter is that Sale was every bit as risky if not riskier than Kimbrel. Sale had not pitched well in the ALCS and had his sickness and was not sharp in Game 1 of the World Series and was bumped from his start in Game 5 to pitch Price on 3 days rest (which isn't accurate because he actually only had 1 day off as he pitched in Game 3 in relief and I think he might have warmed up in Game 4). That would make me question how effective Sale was going to be. Thus he needed a large working margin to come into the game as Cora said. As it was, Sale was sensational. But it was not a hide from Kimbrel thing. That is inaccurate.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 30, 2019 3:09:48 GMT -5
It's going to be a fun and messy ride from here on out Soxprospects board. As Jerry said, I'm here until the end. I hope it doesn't end like this, but it needs to be pointed out from last year-
Take care all.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jun 30, 2019 13:54:42 GMT -5
It's unclear how much payroll room we have. This site says we're at $251M - so, already over: www.rosterresource.com/mlb-boston-red-sox-info/ But this one says we're well under: www.spotrac.com/mlb/boston-red-sox/payroll/. If they're close to being over or already over then they need to either go BTW and re-make the bullpen or not bother. I'm not interested in adding a couple of new pieces that don't make a serious impact and giving up next year's first-round pick. I respect DD-ski, but let's face it his off-season was a big swing and miss. Locking up Eo and not signing a reliever has left us with a bad pen. I mean the team with the highest payroll in the sport should have enough talent not to have to struggle to get a play-in game.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 30, 2019 14:39:59 GMT -5
It's going to be a fun and messy ride from here on out Soxprospects board. As Jerry said, I'm here until the end. I hope it doesn't end like this, but it needs to be pointed out from last year- Take care all. That quote that Sox Stats references reminds me too much of the mentality that lost the Sox Lackey and Lester.
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Post by beavertontim on Jun 30, 2019 15:16:15 GMT -5
After this weekend can we start focusing on 2020? We have a decent team in 2019, but the Sox are not going far in the playoffs, in fact they are likely not going there at all. A team will want Porcello and Holt as rentals. Saves some payroll and maybe the team can get some decent prospects in return. More controversial is Bradley. The team cannot afford to sign every younger guy on the roster. With a controllable year left Bradley could bring a pretty good return. Time to send him off.
Sometimes you just have to move on and build for the future.
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Post by RedSoxStats on Jun 30, 2019 17:08:45 GMT -5
It's unclear how much payroll room we have. They are absolutely not over or projected to be over. That First projection includes Rusney in their calculations.
They are on pace to spend 243 and change and they have made it very clear with their actions and words they won't be going over 246.
So for example, Will Smith is making 4.23 this year, with ~half the season over he'd now be about 2 million.
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Post by soxjim on Jun 30, 2019 18:13:26 GMT -5
After this weekend can we start focusing on 2020? We have a decent team in 2019, but the Sox are not going far in the playoffs, in fact they are likely not going there at all. A team will want Porcello and Holt as rentals. Saves some payroll and maybe the team can get some decent prospects in return. More controversial is Bradley. The team cannot afford to sign every younger guy on the roster. With a controllable year left Bradley could bring a pretty good return. Time to send him off. Sometimes you just have to move on and build for the future. Is this a joke?
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Post by beavertontim on Jun 30, 2019 18:53:22 GMT -5
After this weekend can we start focusing on 2020? We have a decent team in 2019, but the Sox are not going far in the playoffs, in fact they are likely not going there at all. A team will want Porcello and Holt as rentals. Saves some payroll and maybe the team can get some decent prospects in return. More controversial is Bradley. The team cannot afford to sign every younger guy on the roster. With a controllable year left Bradley could bring a pretty good return. Time to send him off. Sometimes you just have to move on and build for the future. Is this a joke? Not a joke. Just looking at the team as a business and evaluating the best opportunities for the team in the short and long term. This team is not destined to win it all. Early season injuries and player regressions have sealed its fate. This is still a very good team. Get value out of short term contracts and a contract that will likely not be extended in order to build for 2020.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 2, 2019 4:11:04 GMT -5
When you see Dmaineah looking prophetic that's how you know the Red Sox season has totally gone off the rails. So now the Red Sox are going to trade for a starter instead of a reliever? And this is better??!! I’m fascinated to see who they target as a starter in this case. It’s probably going to be incredibly depressing to someone like me who loves prospects, hates rentals, and has little faith in the constitution of this year’s team. “Totally off the rails” is right. So the most Dave Dombrowski thing he could do this deadline is buy low on a high ceiling power arm in a rotation in Aaron Sanchez and hope he turns it around in the fifth spot in the rotation this year. Right now, he's the best option moving forward you have in a starting rotation spot imo- -He shouldn't cost a lot in prospects. -He could move to a bullpen role in the playoffs where he could add velocity and swings and misses. -If you miss out on the playoffs, he adds value by being in team control for 2 more years after this year. -He would be a great candidate to replace Porcello in the rotation next year. -John Henry is about 5 million dollars away from shopping at Wal-Mart like the rest of us with the way he's talking this year. Aaron Sanchez makes less than 2 million dollars the rest of the way through this year. -Once again, it would be nice to see if Brian Bannister can fix Sanchez and bring him back to his dominance he had 3 years ago. Everyone talks about "buying low on a player." Well here's your chance. Sanchez was once a guy that had a 5 bWAR season in 2016. He still has great stuff, but he is in the middle of a miserable season this year.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 2, 2019 5:06:28 GMT -5
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 2, 2019 6:53:41 GMT -5
I completely disagree with Cotillo that any of those moves are "admitting they screwed up." 1. They DFA'ed Leon gambling (correctly) that he'd clear. I don't think bringing him back was admitting they screwed up so much as realizing that at this point, Swihart probably wasn't a guy they wanted catching full time. Admittedly, this could defensibly be characterized as "admitting a mistake," but I don't necessarily see it that way. 2. OOOOOOOOOOO THEY CHANGED THE BATTING ORDER OH MY GODDDDDDDDDD 3. As I tweeted this morning, I'm still not sure I buy that Eovaldi to the bullpen has to do with team needs more than it has to do with his health. OK, moving him to the bullpen helps that area.... so who's the fifth starter? And they probably still need another arm back there. Personally, I think it's time to move Houck and Darwinzon to the bullpen in Portland (for this season - I'm not saying give up on them as starters) and see how they look in that role. Seems unlikely that Feltman is going to help this year at this point.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 2, 2019 21:44:38 GMT -5
This may sound silly but I’d like the Sox to see what the Royals want for Whit Merrifield. He’s on a really good contract and plays second, and a lot of other positions but really would want him for second. Second base has been an issue for a couple years and the team isn’t in a spot to add a lot of salary making him all the more valuable here.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 3, 2019 6:29:59 GMT -5
Unrelated, but the Yankees best target for a starting pitcher might be Zach Wheeler. He's pretty good, but is a huge step below Max Scherzer and all the talk of the Yankees trying to do everything to get him.
Still, the Yankees look like the favorites in the AL if they even get a Wheeler.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 3, 2019 7:37:53 GMT -5
Unrelated, but the Yankees best target for a starting pitcher might be Zach Wheeler. He's pretty good, but is a huge step below Max Scherzer and all the talk of the Yankees trying to do everything to get him. Still, the Yankees look like the favorites in the AL if they even get a Wheeler. The good news is that Washington is climbing into the NL Wild Card fray meaning they're less likely to deal away Scherzer.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 3, 2019 8:04:00 GMT -5
Unrelated, but the Yankees best target for a starting pitcher might be Zach Wheeler. He's pretty good, but is a huge step below Max Scherzer and all the talk of the Yankees trying to do everything to get him. Still, the Yankees look like the favorites in the AL if they even get a Wheeler. The good news is that Washington is climbing into the NL Wild Card fray meaning they're less likely to deal away Scherzer. FWIW, also means they're less likely to deal Doolittle.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 3, 2019 8:08:24 GMT -5
The good news is that Washington is climbing into the NL Wild Card fray meaning they're less likely to deal away Scherzer. FWIW, also means they're less likely to deal Doolittle. I'm ok with that. I'd like to see the Red Sox come away with a closer, but I think the price is going to be too high. What I want them to get and what I think they should do are at odds with each other.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 3, 2019 8:39:21 GMT -5
Unrelated, but the Yankees best target for a starting pitcher might be Zach Wheeler. He's pretty good, but is a huge step below Max Scherzer and all the talk of the Yankees trying to do everything to get him. Still, the Yankees look like the favorites in the AL if they even get a Wheeler. The good news is that Washington is climbing into the NL Wild Card fray meaning they're less likely to deal away Scherzer. Just means they'll get Stroman. Scherzer is the better pitcher, but age and contract make him less valuable, I think. I could also see the Mets being the Mets and dealing Wheeler below value and him going to NY and posting numbers more reflective to what he should be, if not better.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 3, 2019 10:32:13 GMT -5
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 3, 2019 10:51:43 GMT -5
The good news is that Washington is climbing into the NL Wild Card fray meaning they're less likely to deal away Scherzer. Just means they'll get Stroman. Scherzer is the better pitcher, but age and contract make him less valuable, I think. I could also see the Mets being the Mets and dealing Wheeler below value and him going to NY and posting numbers more reflective to what he should be, if not better. Sure he's the best pitcher in the game, but really you'd rather have the cost controlled mediocrity...
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Post by soxfaninnj on Jul 3, 2019 15:33:10 GMT -5
Yonder Alonso just got released, do we give him a shot on a minimum salary till Moreland comes back ??
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Post by soxfaninnj on Jul 3, 2019 15:34:04 GMT -5
I actually don’t hate it! It would be funny to see him vs the MFY
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 3, 2019 16:46:31 GMT -5
I actually don’t hate it! It would be funny to see him vs the MFY Meh, he's striking out 40 percent of the time and all he's good for is starting fights lol.
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Post by soxfaninnj on Jul 3, 2019 18:07:16 GMT -5
I actually don’t hate it! It would be funny to see him vs the MFY Meh, he's striking out 40 percent of the time and all he's good for is starting fights lol. Can’t be worse than 2019 Pearce
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