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Red Sox Acquire Andrew Cashner
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Post by soxjim on Jul 13, 2019 20:11:37 GMT -5
There's a solid chance that the Sox could be done, which isn't great and optimal for increasing your chances at the playoffs and a deep playoff run. Henry doesn't really want to spend money, so it is what it is. Don't the Red Sox have the highest payroll in baseball? Is that not spending money? I get that the team might not be built perfectly but after winning a championship and having the highest payroll two years in a row. I think the "not spending" complaint isn't valid You're right it's not valid. I can easily get mad at an owner for not spending money when it's not my money. It's easy for me to sit behind a computer and tell an owner "he makes enough." But it's not reality.
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Post by larrycook on Jul 13, 2019 20:38:26 GMT -5
Don’t the Sox have the highest paid starting rotation in the history of baseball and isn’t their collective era ranked 18th in the majors this year?
Seems like a really bad return on investment for Henry,
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,067
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Post by cdj on Jul 13, 2019 21:30:00 GMT -5
Don’t the Sox have the highest paid starting rotation in the history of baseball and isn’t their collective era ranked 18th in the majors this year? Seems like a really bad return on investment for Henry, Correct. That’s why it drives me crazy when people say he doesn’t want to spend money on the team. That’s simply as far out of touch with reality as one can be. He’s very willing to spend money on the team. More willing than quite literally any owner in the sport. It just hasn’t been spent all that well. That’s the reality. For the most part We are getting bailed out by cheap home grown guys in the lineup
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Post by telson13 on Jul 13, 2019 21:46:21 GMT -5
I think this is a terrific move. I’m a little bummed because I like Prado, but he’s 17 (they both are), meaning at the absolute best, 3-4 years away...and that’s very low likelihood. It’s more like 5-7, and with their Int’l scouting and IFA approach, I’m quite certain they can find replacements quickly. The chance either ends up in MLB is relatively slim. OTOH, Cashner’s velocity has been better this year, and he’s been hot lately. He’s pitching like a 3, a GOOD 3, first-division level...so if he keeps doing so he gives them a terrific shot at much-better-than-“needed” production out of the 5, where they really need to stabilize things. It also gives Eovaldi time to build up (and maybe be a hybrid in the mold of his performance last fall), and takes some pressure off the bullpen by being a reasonable shot for 5-7 or even 8 innings in a place they’ve largely gotten 2-4. And, they got cash back, to offset his salary. Terrific move without impact on the current window/retooling period. Just perfect, especially if they avoid any major (unless it’s a steal) BP move.
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Post by hammerhead on Jul 13, 2019 22:22:47 GMT -5
Don’t the Sox have the highest paid starting rotation in the history of baseball and isn’t their collective era ranked 18th in the majors this year? Seems like a really bad return on investment for Henry, Geeze, you guys take the bait every time he says it. It's really better to not address it.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 13, 2019 23:57:31 GMT -5
Well, given the circumstances the Sox did the best they're probably going to do.
I don't expect great things or even good things from Cashner. He's been pretty bad the past few years. And his peripherals are hardly the greatest.
That said, given that he has had good results lately, which is the bottom line, this is a move the Sox needed to make.
Unless they were going to undo the progress their farm system is starting to make, like trading any of Casas, Dalbec, Duran, Houck, Mata, Jimenez, or Hernandez, there was no way they were going to get a Dan Wheeler or anybody else of impact, and frankly, if Porcello and Sale don't pitch better, they're not going anywhere in the post-season if they make it anyways. They have their four starters. They just need for somebody not to be a disaster/bullpen killer every fifth day.
In a way this move reminds me of the Erik Bedard move Theo made. It made sense to make. Didn't do much for them. Didn't really hurt them.
Prado looks like the prize for Baltimore but he's a lotto ticket and not as big as one as say, Feliz, Brainier, or Bryan Gonzalez for example, so this lowest level move is the one that make the most sense for the Red Sox.
I do hope Cashner is a vast improvement on Johnson/Velazquez/etc.
I suspect that if the Red Sox make the post-season, Cashner won't even be on the roster.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 14, 2019 0:14:21 GMT -5
Don’t the Sox have the highest paid starting rotation in the history of baseball and isn’t their collective era ranked 18th in the majors this year? Seems like a really bad return on investment for Henry, Correct. That’s why it drives me crazy when people say he doesn’t want to spend money on the team. That’s simply as far out of touch with reality as one can be. He’s very willing to spend money on the team. More willing than quite literally any owner in the sport. It just hasn’t been spent all that well. That’s the reality. For the most part We are getting bailed out by cheap home grown guys in the lineup The stop spending money part is his fault. He could have helped the team a lot more. It's not out of touch. Who cares if every other owner stinks too? This might be it for all the moves this team makes. Everyone will be getting better this deadline after it's all said and done. The Sox will have Cashner. We will be lucky if this team gets a reliever this deadline.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jul 14, 2019 0:20:49 GMT -5
Correct. That’s why it drives me crazy when people say he doesn’t want to spend money on the team. That’s simply as far out of touch with reality as one can be. He’s very willing to spend money on the team. More willing than quite literally any owner in the sport. It just hasn’t been spent all that well. That’s the reality. For the most part We are getting bailed out by cheap home grown guys in the lineup That's true for basically every team ever.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 14, 2019 0:56:51 GMT -5
Correct. That’s why it drives me crazy when people say he doesn’t want to spend money on the team. That’s simply as far out of touch with reality as one can be. He’s very willing to spend money on the team. More willing than quite literally any owner in the sport. It just hasn’t been spent all that well. That’s the reality. For the most part We are getting bailed out by cheap home grown guys in the lineup The stop spending money part is his fault. He could have helped the team a lot more. It's not out of touch. Who cares if every other owner stinks too? This might be it for all the moves this team makes. Everyone will be getting better this deadline after it's all said and done. The Sox will have Cashner. We will be lucky if this team gets a reliever this deadline. Yes, Henry could have gotten a reliever in mid-December and it might have taken pressure off the Sox as far as having to trade actual talent to improve the pen instead of money. But all in all he spends money. I mean, $145 million for Chris Sale over 5 years. That's money spent. How has that worked out so far? And I say that as somebody in favor of that deal (and still despite what he has done so far.) The problem is less than Henry doesn't spend but more that they haven't gotten the production for what they spent. Porcello costs $20 million/year. Starting pitching like a $20 million man. Eovaldi got $17 million. They got an expensive reliever who has yet to do anything this year for that number. Like you, I wish the Sox would have gotten an experienced reliever or somebody you'd feel comfortable with heading up the bullpen. They don't have that because they let Kimbrel walk and didn't replace him. However I don't think the problem is that Henry is "cheap". I don't find him cheap at all. I think he feels like he spent his money but isn't getting the bang for the buck, and I think he's right about that. Guys have to perform up to their pay levels. The Sox are getting pretty good production out of the lesser paid players. The higher paid players have largely disappointed.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,067
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Post by cdj on Jul 14, 2019 5:35:18 GMT -5
Correct. That’s why it drives me crazy when people say he doesn’t want to spend money on the team. That’s simply as far out of touch with reality as one can be. He’s very willing to spend money on the team. More willing than quite literally any owner in the sport. It just hasn’t been spent all that well. That’s the reality. For the most part We are getting bailed out by cheap home grown guys in the lineup That's true for basically every team ever. Kind of speaks to the stupidity of trying to throw money at all your roster problems then, no? We could’ve easily gone out and signed a reliever this offseason- I remember us being linked to Robertson, for instance. They’d be paying luxury tax penalties for a shitty reliever right now if they went that route. As a matter of fact most of their options ended up being terrible. It’s a lot more complex than John Henry not spending money on the team like some (erroneously) want to cry about. He spends all I could possibly ask him to spend. They just haven’t spent it right. Henry is not the issue. And this coming from a guy who doesn’t really like him all that much
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 14, 2019 7:47:11 GMT -5
more from @masnroch Elias said trade talks with #redsox for about a week. They were most aggressive and made best offer. #orioles want to improve international talent in system The Orioles are so dumb. You don't improve international talent by trading for it. You do that by actually spending your international money. They should be trading for the best talent period. FWIW, Cashner said he’d retire if traded and Dombrowski talked him into reporting to the Sox before the deal was struck so the Orioles probably didn’t have much of a chance to get much for him. This was a take what you can get situation. Add: you’re right, it’s dumb to target “international talent” in a trade. Who gives a damn at that point, unless you’re targeting bonus pool money.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 14, 2019 8:31:22 GMT -5
That's true for basically every team ever. Kind of speaks to the stupidity of trying to throw money at all your roster problems then, no? We could’ve easily gone out and signed a reliever this offseason- I remember us being linked to Robertson, for instance. They’d be paying luxury tax penalties for a shitty reliever right now if they went that route. As a matter of fact most of their options ended up being terrible. It’s a lot more complex than John Henry not spending money on the team like some (erroneously) want to cry about. He spends all I could possibly ask him to spend. They just haven’t spent it right. Henry is not the issue. And this coming from a guy who doesn’t really like him all that much I mean... you worried he's about to run out of money or something? Ask for more!
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Post by ramireja on Jul 14, 2019 8:33:45 GMT -5
Pedro -- you've voiced your opinions on Henry being cheap numerous times now. You're not saying anything new at this point and its shifting the intended focus of the threads elsewhere. Please let it go unless you have something new to add to that particular discussion.
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Post by jimmydugan on Jul 14, 2019 8:52:58 GMT -5
For what its worth, Cashner has changed up (pun intended) his pitch mix this year a bit. His FB usage is down to 50.4% this year and has typically ranged between 60%-70% in previous years. His CH is being thrown 25.8% this year which is a career high and up from 13.3% last year. According to FG, he's having success doing so too....his CH pitch value (14.6) also represents a career high among all of his secondary pitches, and it might also be helping to keep guys off his FB which has a pitch value of roughly 0 which is up from -19.1 last year. Looks like he started decreasing his slider usage in favor of his change up early in the season with pretty good results so far. First 4 starts: 21.5% SL, 18.2% CH Last 13: 9% SL, 27.8% CH (ERA- of 75 and FIP- of 77 in that span) He's done a good job of limiting walks (5.8%) in that stretch. If they make the postseason and he's on the roster.. Having a guy in the pen who can keep the ball on the ground could be useful too.
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Post by dmaineah on Jul 14, 2019 9:46:35 GMT -5
per Sean McAdam - "After obtaining Andrew Cashner and with the pending move of Eovaldi to bullpen, I asked Dombrowski if Red Sox might stand pat now. "We might,'' he said." Adding Eovaldi is going to require a corresponding move to the 40 man roster to get him back on it before adding him to the active roster. I anticipate there is another trade coming of someone on the 40 man for some type of prospect to open up a spot. I could see any of the following being traded; Nunez, Travis, Lin, Hernandez, Curletta Poyner, Kelley, Weber, Smith, Taylor
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Post by Addam603 on Jul 14, 2019 9:57:56 GMT -5
per Sean McAdam - "After obtaining Andrew Cashner and with the pending move of Eovaldi to bullpen, I asked Dombrowski if Red Sox might stand pat now. "We might,'' he said." Adding Eovaldi is going to require a corresponding move to the 40 man roster to get him back on it before adding him to the active roster. I anticipate there is another trade coming of someone on the 40 man for some type of prospect to open up a spot. I could see any of the following being traded; Nunez, Travis, Lin, Hernandez, Curletta Poyner, Kelley, Weber, Smith, Taylor Lin, Hernandez, and Taylor definitely won’t be traded. Any of the others, you could talk me into.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,067
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Post by cdj on Jul 14, 2019 10:17:39 GMT -5
Kind of speaks to the stupidity of trying to throw money at all your roster problems then, no? We could’ve easily gone out and signed a reliever this offseason- I remember us being linked to Robertson, for instance. They’d be paying luxury tax penalties for a shitty reliever right now if they went that route. As a matter of fact most of their options ended up being terrible. It’s a lot more complex than John Henry not spending money on the team like some (erroneously) want to cry about. He spends all I could possibly ask him to spend. They just haven’t spent it right. Henry is not the issue. And this coming from a guy who doesn’t really like him all that much I mean... you worried he's about to run out of money or something? Ask for more! He has a thousand other business ventures (including another globally popular sports team that’s costs him hundreds of millions) and the Red Sox are not a non profit. He has sunk more money into this team than the Yankees have their own. By a lot. Now could you imagine saying what you’re saying a decade and a half ago if the Sox were spending more than the yankees? Probably not. It’s very selfish and entitled to ask for him to spend more Throwing money at problems does not fix them. If it did the Red Sox would not have any issues. This Cashner deal represents the best of every world- it’s an upgrade over what they have, it’s not costing them a ton of money and penalizing the franchise in luxury tax penalties, and it didn’t cost a whole lot in prospect capital
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Post by Guidas on Jul 14, 2019 10:17:45 GMT -5
There's a solid chance that the Sox could be done, which isn't great and optimal for increasing your chances at the playoffs and a deep playoff run. Henry doesn't really want to spend money, so it is what it is. Well, he is throwing down for the highest payroll in baseball. And, as a businessman and fan of the game, it has to be frustrating to see teams like Tampa Bay, Cleveland, Houston, Oakland, Minnesota and Milwaukee get so much success on so little. Not like he could do a tank job like Houston or Minnesota did in the Boston market. LAD may be a better analogy - a big budget/generous owner team that remains competitive every year (and I pleaded for Henry to get Friedman when he was looking around! Not like he took my calls ). Dombrowski to his credit has made mostly the right moves - with Smith and Thornburg being the two biggest misses. And they will be jettisoning Panda and Porcello's money next year, and perhaps can work a restructure for Pedroia if he decides to retire so he gets paid but Bobby Bonilla style over the next 10-15 years. Either way, they will have arb raises - and it is a perfect time to extend Devers, IMHO, to buy out 2-3 years of his free agency, which will be cheaper than Mookie - so it's not like a sub-luxury tax reset is in the offing. Regardless, the Cashner move speaks to something that has really been an Achilles heel for this organization - pitching development. That they don't even have a legit #5 to slug is a big problem, especially since most winning teams need 6-7 starters every year. With so much of analytics and advanced motion capture and analysis tech going toward player development, I would hope they can use resources to further maximize that finally - even if it means stealing the pitching evaluators from Oakland, Houston and wherever else they seem to excel at this. This has to be (and I'm sure it's been, but whatever they're doing isn't working) a primary area of emphasis.
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Post by ramireja on Jul 14, 2019 10:20:55 GMT -5
For what its worth, Cashner has changed up (pun intended) his pitch mix this year a bit. His FB usage is down to 50.4% this year and has typically ranged between 60%-70% in previous years. His CH is being thrown 25.8% this year which is a career high and up from 13.3% last year. According to FG, he's having success doing so too....his CH pitch value (14.6) also represents a career high among all of his secondary pitches, and it might also be helping to keep guys off his FB which has a pitch value of roughly 0 which is up from -19.1 last year. Looks like he started decreasing his slider usage in favor of his change up early in the season with pretty good results so far. First 4 starts: 21.5% SL, 18.2% CH Last 13: 9% SL, 27.8% CH (ERA- of 75 and FIP- of 77 in that span) He's done a good job of limiting walks (5.8%) in that stretch. If they make the postseason and he's on the roster.. Having a guy in the pen who can keep the ball on the ground could be useful too. I'm seeing a lot of chatter about Cashner being lucky this year and you know what? It's probably true to a degree. But it's important to note he's been definitively better than previous years with the increased usage of his CH and decreased usage of his FB. His 49.2% GB% is his best since 2013, his 28.1% O-Swing% is his best since 2015, his 66.8% O-Contact% is his best since 2012, and his 87.0% Z-Contact% is his best since 2013. Remember, Cashner was kind of a dude back with the Padres in that era. Not saying he is that dude currently, but this is a pretty shrewd pickup for a 5th starter without mortgaging the farm and hopefully staying under the highest luxury tax threshold.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 14, 2019 10:41:31 GMT -5
I mean... you worried he's about to run out of money or something? Ask for more! He has a thousand other business ventures (including another globally popular sports team that’s costs him hundreds of millions) and the Red Sox are not a non profit. He has sunk more money into this team than the Yankees have their own. By a lot. Now could you imagine saying what you’re saying a decade and a half ago if the Sox were spending more than the yankees? Probably not. It’s very selfish and entitled to ask for him to spend more Throwing money at problems does not fix them. If it did the Red Sox would not have any issues. This Cashner deal represents the best of every world- it’s an upgrade over what they have, it’s not costing them a ton of money and penalizing the franchise in luxury tax penalties, and it didn’t cost a whole lot in prospect capital Laughable. Moving on.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 14, 2019 10:58:49 GMT -5
Looks like he started decreasing his slider usage in favor of his change up early in the season with pretty good results so far. First 4 starts: 21.5% SL, 18.2% CH Last 13: 9% SL, 27.8% CH (ERA- of 75 and FIP- of 77 in that span) He's done a good job of limiting walks (5.8%) in that stretch. If they make the postseason and he's on the roster.. Having a guy in the pen who can keep the ball on the ground could be useful too. I'm seeing a lot of chatter about Cashner being lucky this year and you know what? It's probably true to a degree. But it's important to note he's been definitively better than previous years with the increased usage of his CH and decreased usage of his FB. His 49.2% GB% is his best since 2013, his 28.1% O-Swing% is his best since 2015, his 66.8% O-Contact% is his best since 2012, and his 87.0% Z-Contact% is his best since 2013. Remember, Cashner was kind of a dude back with the Padres in that era. Not saying he is that dude currently, but this is a pretty shrewd pickup for a 5th starter without mortgaging the farm and hopefully staying under the highest luxury tax threshold. He's completely scrapped his sinker this year, which he'd been throwing as his primary pitch for a while. I've never been a Cashner fan but there's enough here to think that maybe he's more than just pure innings filler. Still, a lot of his success this year is based on an improved home run rate, which is the last thing I expect to hold up in this offensive environment. THE BAT, which is the projection system that's really reacting to the increased home run rate this year, has him for a 5.49 ERA the rest of the way.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 14, 2019 10:59:14 GMT -5
Kind of speaks to the stupidity of trying to throw money at all your roster problems then, no? We could’ve easily gone out and signed a reliever this offseason- I remember us being linked to Robertson, for instance. They’d be paying luxury tax penalties for a shitty reliever right now if they went that route. As a matter of fact most of their options ended up being terrible. It’s a lot more complex than John Henry not spending money on the team like some (erroneously) want to cry about. He spends all I could possibly ask him to spend. They just haven’t spent it right. Henry is not the issue. And this coming from a guy who doesn’t really like him all that much I mean... you worried he's about to run out of money or something? Ask for more! Criticizing owners in general for not spending enough makes sense. Praising Henry for spending more than any other owner makes sense. Singling out Henry for criticism for not spending enough when he spends more than any other owner makes no sense.
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cdj
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Posts: 14,067
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Post by cdj on Jul 14, 2019 11:01:48 GMT -5
Only thing laughable is saying the guy who spends the most in the MLB and the most in the Premier league doesn’t want to spend money. But yes, moving on indeed.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 14, 2019 11:55:33 GMT -5
I've got a ton of Cashner analysis which I'll put up before his first start.
The biggest news: based on xwOBA, his last 5 starts are the second best stretch of starting pitching this year by anyone on the roster other than Sale, next to Price from May 20 to June 8. And there are real changes in his pitch mix, movement (e.g., 2" extra on his slider), and horizontal release points.
The other remarkable thing is that he's had insane karma on balls in play. And the Orioles rank in the bottom 3 of MLB in team defense metrics! He has been helped in this stretch of 5 starts (.258 xwOBA, .187 wOBA) by having Keon Broxton in CF and rookie Anthony Santander in RF, and those guys are really good, but he also appears to have had a lot of fly balls hit close to his fielders (which is very unlikely to be a skill) and lots of line drives hit right at fielders (which is definitely not a skill). He's had a lot of success with the shift in his last 5 starts, and getting guys to hit into the shift may well be a skill (Porcello seems to have it when he's going well).
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Post by 29sonski on Jul 14, 2019 12:15:50 GMT -5
“I know these guys are far off, but it hurt. When they were coming up with these names, they weren’t guys that we were hoping they’d asked for, but when an opportunity comes to help out the big league team with a starting pitcher, it’s tough to say no,” said Red Sox assistant GM Eddie Romero. “We were able to create value quickly with these two guys. That’s a tip of the cap [to the international scouting department].” www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2019/07/14/speier/m2eG7SpO1sdvmCGwvvVCOO/story.html?event=event25
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