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Post by caseytins on Dec 24, 2019 17:58:50 GMT -5
I almost guarantee this comment was made by Rich Hahn. White Sox still want a starter. Since it's a Gammons' quote, and due to the timing, it is probably linked to Madrigal and/or Vaughn.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 24, 2019 21:04:33 GMT -5
I almost guarantee this comment was made by Rich Hahn. White Sox still want a starter. Since it's a Gammons' quote, and due to the timing, it is probably linked to Madrigal and/or Vaughn. The White Sox have 5 starters. They're probably done for now. One would think that Hahn rejected that trade idea altogether.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 25, 2019 1:46:19 GMT -5
I always liked Dombrowski's approach. Sox need a starter he gets his guy. Closer? Gets one of the best in baseball. He may not have always got the best value, but he always got his guy. Even the Sale contact that everyone hated looks pretty good right now. He had his flaws, but he did almost everything he was asked to do. Bloom was presumably brought in to get under the tax threshold. All he's done so far is spend $10m on two scrap heap guys and screw around with what currently looks like a paint by numbers salary dump. Like I said he could be a genius for waiting it out, but the reason not to wait is because teams can move on to plan B and Price's market could dry up. The risk/reward isn't there to justify dragging this out until spring training, or next week for that matter. I don't know why you see this as screwing around. Bloom's calculation may well be that Price is worth X to the Red Sox, factoring in both his potential contributions as a player and team budget considerations. If he can get >X in a trade he'll take it; if he can't, he won't make the trade. The "risk" is that they go into next season with Price in the starting rotation, and Bloom may see that as a perfectly acceptable outcome. On the face of it there's nothing mysterious about this situation. There's risk to keeping Price. If he gets hurt into spring training, the Sox might never get the chance to trade Price again if he's out for a while (especially when you factor his 10/5 rights as a player past 2020). Considering Price's durability history recently (along with age), there's considerable risk there. The best time to trade him is now, or you could be stuck with his contract. Add- I talked about the art of a deal and the aggressiveness behind a deal in another thread. The Sox aren't being the aggressor behind this deal and that's one of the big reasons why nothing has happened yet. As time passes, I get less optimistic of a Price deal. I myself hope the Sox get prospects and do a one year reset while the Yankees are up and the Sox are reshifting with new and less expensive talent hopefully coming through the system and through trades like this one.
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 25, 2019 3:11:04 GMT -5
The real question is how many times in a five minute span can I refresh MLBTRADERUMORS, Twitter, The Athletic, and various other sources hoping for something new to have happened, or some movement to have occurred one way or the other. Dude it is Christmas Eve I think you can forget about it for tonight.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 25, 2019 6:41:50 GMT -5
The White Sox have 5 starters. They're probably done for now. One would think that Hahn rejected that trade idea altogether. David Price is much better than four of them.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 25, 2019 7:09:19 GMT -5
The White Sox have 5 starters. They're probably done for now. One would think that Hahn rejected that trade idea altogether. David Price is much better than four of them. That's true, but 4 of them don't cost money and prospects. Just looking at it from their perspective. Maybe they would be still looking to upgrade, but I doubt it after the Khechul and Gonzalez signings.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 25, 2019 10:21:27 GMT -5
You do realize that it was DD’s approach that got Price and his problematic contract in the first place, right? There is little need to hurry considering there are still numerous teams with starter needs and little in free agency to plug those needs. I think if the Sox are willing to eat 35-ish million from Price’s contract, they’d easily find a buyer. So why not wait until a team gets desperate? If no one does, trade him at the beginning of training camp and eat the 35 million. The need for speed in this context is fan-based, not situationally imposed. I always liked Dombrowski's approach. Sox need a starter he gets his guy. Closer? Gets one of the best in baseball. He may not have always got the best value, but he always got his guy. Even the Sale contact that everyone hated looks pretty good right now. He had his flaws, but he did almost everything he was asked to do. Bloom was presumably brought in to get under the tax threshold. All he's done so far is spend $10m on two scrap heap guys and screw around with what currently looks like a paint by numbers salary dump. Like I said he could be a genius for waiting it out, but the reason not to wait is because teams can move on to plan B and Price's market could dry up. The risk/reward isn't there to justify dragging this out until spring training, or next week for that matter. It takes two parties to make a trade. The lack of movement is an indication that there is no 2nd party yet.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 26, 2019 8:14:50 GMT -5
So to put to bed the rumor of Madrigal and Vaughn to the Red Sox for Price and Benintendi, the White Sox signed Edwin Encarnacion.
Why is this relevant?
Vaughn has a one or 2 year track until he reaches the big leagues. A guy like Edwin bridges that gap until Vaughn is up. Madrigal is up as soon as May is here. The White Sox have 6 starters. With Kopech behind the 5 starters of Giolito, Cease, Khechul, Gonzalez, and Lopez.
No need for Price. Give this one rumor up Gammons and hopeful Red Sox fans.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 26, 2019 9:06:05 GMT -5
The White Sox have 6 starters.With Kopech behind the 5 starters of Giolito, Cease, Khechul, Gonzalez, and Lopez. No need for Price. Give this one rumor up Gammons and hopeful Red Sox fans. Cease was bad in the majors, Lopez is confirmed bad in the majors, Gonzalez is near the end of his career (he had less value on the market than Perez), Kopech was last seen two years ago looking like a guy with an amazing fastball and a questionable ability to remain a starter... it doesn't really matter that they've nominally filled all their slots when Price would still be pretty clearly their #2. If anything there's more pressure for them to get more depth in that rotation because a lot of guys currently on the fringes of it would probably be a lot better out of the bullpen.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 26, 2019 11:31:33 GMT -5
David Price is much better than four of them. That's true, but 4 of them don't cost money and prospects. Just looking at it from their perspective. Maybe they would be still looking to upgrade, but I doubt it after the Khechul and Gonzalez signings. Gio is 1 year with a club option. Getting Price would let them keep Cease down to start the year. Midyear, your injury replacement options include Cease and Kopech. Next year you let Gio walk if one of the kids is ready to take that spot and can move someone (Keuchel or Price?) if they both are. I tell you what, if the White Sox play this right, that club could own the AL Central for a decade.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 27, 2019 11:16:37 GMT -5
White Sox may be out on the starting pitching market. Saw that coming.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 27, 2019 11:21:24 GMT -5
White Sox may be out on the starting pitching market. Trading for Price would most likely turn one of their bad starters into a good reliever. Bringing in a starter when you already have a full rotation isn't like bringing in a first baseman when you already have a first baseman; adding a starter to the top of a "full" rotation just makes your staff deeper and better and displaces your worst pitchers.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 27, 2019 12:03:23 GMT -5
White Sox may be out on the starting pitching market. Saw that coming. I'm not convinced about that. They have Giolito, Keuchel and a bunch of question marks. Getting Price would stabilize that rotation and they're clearly going for it. Yes, they have young intriguing pitching talent (Kopech says hello), but between Cease and Kopech, those are question marks. Kopech might be too wild to be a starter (In other words he might be 100 pitches by the 4th inning if he's walking too many guys.) Gio Gonzalez is not much more than a #5 at this point. The White Sox should be very much in contention. I figure it's them and the Twins going for the division with the Indians taking a step or more back, so they're probably going to need starting pitching help either now or later.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 27, 2019 12:40:32 GMT -5
Are the White Sox going for it though?
I'd say they're more in the team building phase still. Their biggest contracts were both 4 year deals to Grandal and Khechul. Encarnacion and Gonzalez were bridge signings to hold them over until someone in the system is ready to take their roles in the future.
Yeah they could improve the rotation by throwing Lopez in the bullpen for instance. There's nothing saying that they're actually going to do this though. Too many teams willing to just settle and not want to look bad and risk too much value in trades. Too many GM's afraid to lose their jobs these days by looking bad in trades. I don't see the White Sox extending themselves in the rotation until they need to with maybe a injury or injuries for example.
Add- The most the White Sox can say right now is that they have a shot at the division. I'm not even sure if even adding Price makes them even true title contenders. Makes them closer, but still debatable if they're even there yet. Their willingness to only get bullpen arms past this point only makes me think this more and more.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 27, 2019 13:38:13 GMT -5
Read what Hatfield wrote above. They've reinforced positions of need - Grandal, Mazara, Encarnacion - while adding Keuchel and Gonzalez to the rotation. Hard to imagine they've spent that much money in rebuilding mode. Even with the Twins raking in their ballpark, that is a mediocre to weak division, one they can dominate right now. A few more pitching pieces and they're ready to take it to the playoffs and do some damage I think.
Add: They replace Alonso and his sub-.600 OPS with Encarnacion, they add Mazara with untapped potential in RF, and now they have two catchers who can hit to share that spot. Not a bad idea since they're both on the backside of 30. They've got Robert and Madrigal to step into the only weak positions in that lineup.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 27, 2019 13:39:23 GMT -5
Are the White Sox going for it though? I'd say they're more in the team building phase still. Their biggest contracts were both 4 year deals to Grandal and Khechul. Encarnacion and Gonzalez were bridge signings to hold them over until someone in the system is ready to take their roles in the future. Yeah they could improve the rotation by throwing Lopez in the bullpen for instance. There's nothing saying that they're actually going to do this though. Too many teams willing to just settle and not want to look bad and risk too much value in trades. Too many GM's afraid to lose their jobs these days by looking bad in trades. I don't see the White Sox extending themselves in the rotation until they need to with maybe a injury or injuries for example. Add- The most the White Sox can say right now is that they have a shot at the division. I'm not even sure if even adding Price makes them even true title contenders. Makes them closer, but still debatable if they're even there yet. Their willingness to only get bullpen arms past this point only makes me think this more and more. They are at least, serious contenders for the division. Think of all those wins they'll pile up against KC and Detroit and at this point they are probably better than Cleveland. I also doubt the Twins are going to smack 307 HRs again. They have a real shot at the division. They got Encarnacion because they think they have a real shot. They are building their team, and they'll find they probably need an established veteran pitcher, somebody better than a Gonzalez. They also have legit Wild Card aspirations as well. It wouldn't be a huge stretch to see them as a post-season contender this season, and as somebody here said, if they play their cards right, they really could own that AL Central for awhile in the upcoming decade.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 27, 2019 13:42:10 GMT -5
Are the White Sox going for it though? I'd say they're more in the team building phase still. Their biggest contracts were both 4 year deals to Grandal and Khechul. Encarnacion and Gonzalez were bridge signings to hold them over until someone in the system is ready to take their roles in the future. Yeah they could improve the rotation by throwing Lopez in the bullpen for instance. There's nothing saying that they're actually going to do this though. Too many teams willing to just settle and not want to look bad and risk too much value in trades. Too many GM's afraid to lose their jobs these days by looking bad in trades. I don't see the White Sox extending themselves in the rotation until they need to with maybe a injury or injuries for example. Add- The most the White Sox can say right now is that they have a shot at the division. I'm not even sure if even adding Price makes them even true title contenders. Makes them closer, but still debatable if they're even there yet. Their willingness to only get bullpen arms past this point only makes me think this more and more. In a way, think the mid 90s Indians, who added Denny Martinez and Orel Hershiser, veterans, to Charles Nagy to give them a presentable rotation to front their young offensive core. I'm not saying the ChiSox are Indians mid 90s level but they have a really good young core. Give them stable pitching and that lineup should be able to score a bunch of runs in a weak division and make some noise and that young core will blossom and improve.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 27, 2019 13:59:34 GMT -5
Please find me a weak spot in that lineup...
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 27, 2019 14:43:16 GMT -5
Please find me a weak spot in that lineup... I can find you 3 weak spots in that bullpen. I can also find 2 questionable spots in the rotation even if they get Price. Lineups don't win championships, pitching does. See the Yankees this past decade. See the 2003 Boston Red Sox. Speaking of guys I want to see traded; Brandon Workman. This guy just peaked at a 2.6 bWAR season and he's now 30 with one year of control left. There's no one here who can tell me he's going to have a better season than last year. This is one guy the Sox should trade absolutely. Unless you think he can repeat last season and you think he can get even more value for at the trade deadline (highly doubtful). Speaking of the White Sox and there clear want for relief pitching now. Brandon Workman is a even better fit for them. They have a Zach Collins, who is a perfect fit for the Red Sox right now. Backup catcher/first baseman who hits from the left side of the plate. Can backup Vazquez and platoon with Michael Chavis at first base. You're clearly winning future value of that trade if you make that trade. If not a guy like Zach Collins, Workman should be traded for a backend top 100 prospect right now. Also sheds another 5 million off of the CBT.
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bosox
Veteran
Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Dec 27, 2019 15:15:08 GMT -5
If I'm reading the Fangraph's luxury tax payroll estimate correctly for each team, I will be surprised if the Sox save more than half of what is owed to Price. If a team is willing to take on $20 million a year for Price and still stay under the $208 luxury tax threshold, it takes the Angels and Dodgers out unless they can move another contract. According to Fangraphs, the Angels luxury tax payroll estimate (including benefits) is at $185 million which is the same as the Dodgers (the Cards are at $183). If you add in $20 million for Price, it leaves very little room for other moves (now or at the trade deadline) by those teams and still be under the $208 mark. It's most likely why there are rumors that the Dodgers are talking about moving Seager and Pollock to move money out in order to add a Lindor or Betts or perhaps another starter like Price. On the flip side, the Twins ($129), White Sox ($149) and Padres ($156) have a decent amount of money to spend and still be under the $208 line. The Twins need a top starter but they don't strike me as a team willing to spend money. Unless teams are willing to blow past the luxury tax line, it's going to take some creative ideas from Bloom to move Price and save a fair amount of money. If the Sox are adament about getting to the $208 mark, it's going to take moving more than Price and JBJ. Fangraphs
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 27, 2019 15:33:16 GMT -5
I don't see the 208 line being a constraint to the Dodgers or Angels considering they weren't over the CBT last season. They're historically big spenders too.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 27, 2019 15:59:14 GMT -5
The White Sox have 6 starters.With Kopech behind the 5 starters of Giolito, Cease, Khechul, Gonzalez, and Lopez. No need for Price. Give this one rumor up Gammons and hopeful Red Sox fans. Cease was bad in the majors, Lopez is confirmed bad in the majors, Gonzalez is near the end of his career (he had less value on the market than Perez), Kopech was last seen two years ago looking like a guy with an amazing fastball and a questionable ability to remain a starter... it doesn't really matter that they've nominally filled all their slots when Price would still be pretty clearly their #2. If anything there's more pressure for them to get more depth in that rotation because a lot of guys currently on the fringes of it would probably be a lot better out of the bullpen. Sure seems like they’re going for it, and if they’re doing so in earnest they’re going to need to upgrade (or at least, it’s highly advisable they do so).
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Post by incandenza on Dec 27, 2019 18:28:10 GMT -5
Please find me a weak spot in that lineup... I can find you 3 weak spots in that bullpen. I can also find 2 questionable spots in the rotation even if they get Price. Lineups don't win championships, pitching does. See the Yankees this past decade. See the 2003 Boston Red Sox. League ERA ranks for the last 10 World Series champions: 2019: 8th 2018: 3rd 2017: 5th 2016: 1st 2015: 3rd 2014: 7th 2013: 6th 2012: 5th 2011: 8th 2010: 1st League wRC+ ranks for the last 10 World Series champions: 2019: 3rd 2018: 3rd 2017: 1st 2016: 1st 2015: 8th 2014: 3rd 2013: 1st 2012: 3rd 2011: 1st 2010: 6th Offense ranking correlates better with winning championships than pitching ranking. (Yeah, I'm sure there's a better, mathier way to make the comparison, but this gives the gist.)
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 27, 2019 19:23:36 GMT -5
I can find you 3 weak spots in that bullpen. I can also find 2 questionable spots in the rotation even if they get Price. Lineups don't win championships, pitching does. See the Yankees this past decade. See the 2003 Boston Red Sox. League ERA ranks for the last 10 World Series champions: 2019: 8th 2018: 3rd 2017: 5th 2016: 1st 2015: 3rd 2014: 7th 2013: 6th 2012: 5th 2011: 8th 2010: 1st League wRC+ ranks for the last 10 World Series champions: 2019: 3rd 2018: 3rd 2017: 1st 2016: 1st 2015: 8th 2014: 3rd 2013: 1st 2012: 3rd 2011: 1st 2010: 6th Offense ranking correlates better with winning championships than pitching ranking. (Yeah, I'm sure there's a better, mathier way to make the comparison, but this gives the gist.) All you just illustrated is that both are as important. None of those teams were below top 10 in either category.
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Post by incandenza on Dec 27, 2019 23:17:45 GMT -5
League ERA ranks for the last 10 World Series champions: 2019: 8th 2018: 3rd 2017: 5th 2016: 1st 2015: 3rd 2014: 7th 2013: 6th 2012: 5th 2011: 8th 2010: 1st League wRC+ ranks for the last 10 World Series champions: 2019: 3rd 2018: 3rd 2017: 1st 2016: 1st 2015: 8th 2014: 3rd 2013: 1st 2012: 3rd 2011: 1st 2010: 6th Offense ranking correlates better with winning championships than pitching ranking. (Yeah, I'm sure there's a better, mathier way to make the comparison, but this gives the gist.) All you just illustrated is that both are as important. None of those teams were below top 10 in either category. Yes. I think when it comes to baseball, hitting and pitching are both important. I was surprised to see you claim othrewise, which is why I made the comment.
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