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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 28, 2019 20:11:20 GMT -5
All you just illustrated is that both are as important. None of those teams were below top 10 in either category. Yes. I think when it comes to baseball, hitting and pitching are both important. I was surprised to see you claim othrewise, which is why I made the comment. I made the comment because the emphasis was made on the lineup only, which the White Sox have. So I turned it the other way to the pitching, which the White Sox don't have.
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bosox
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Post by bosox on Dec 31, 2019 13:20:58 GMT -5
With the Twins signing Homer Bailey and Rich Hill today, I'm guessing there's another team removed from a landing spot for Price.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 31, 2019 13:44:24 GMT -5
With the Twins signing Homer Bailey and Rich Hill today, I'm guessing there's another team removed from a landing spot for Price. *rubs temples* If you think a team would ever want Price for the $60m-ish million everyone seems to be expecting someone to pay for him, why would two guys like Hill and Bailey move the needle on that? If the Twins ever valued Price close to what people expect them to pay, why would they let two guys they clearly value much less (including the most injury prone guy in the league!) get in the way? They still just have Berrios, Odorizzi, and like... guys.
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Post by dmaineah on Dec 31, 2019 14:21:38 GMT -5
With the Twins signing Homer Bailey and Rich Hill today, I'm guessing there's another team removed from a landing spot for Price. Bailey is an innings eater fill the back end of a rotation SP. Hill is a second half insurance policy.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 31, 2019 14:42:28 GMT -5
*rubs temples* If you think a team would ever want Price for the $60m-ish million everyone seems to be expecting someone to pay for him, why would two guys like Hill and Bailey move the needle on that? If the Twins ever valued Price close to what people expect them to pay, why would they let two guys they clearly value much less (including the most injury prone guy in the league!) get in the way? They still just have Berrios, Odorizzi, and like... guys. It's a valid question. The 2020 commitment they made to these two pitchers (such as they are) including incentives is about what they presumably would have to pay to get Price. Given that we're talking about the Twins, it's very reasonable to think that they're maxed out and it was an either/or scenario.They have almost nothing committed beyond 2020 though. It'd be a pretty sad state of affairs if they can't bump the payroll up for even one year to capitalize on the window that they've waited so long for.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 31, 2019 16:35:09 GMT -5
With the Twins signing Homer Bailey and Rich Hill today, I'm guessing there's another team removed from a landing spot for Price. *rubs temples* If you think a team would ever want Price for the $60m-ish million everyone seems to be expecting someone to pay for him, why would two guys like Hill and Bailey move the needle on that? If the Twins ever valued Price close to what people expect them to pay, why would they let two guys they clearly value much less (including the most injury prone guy in the league!) get in the way? They still just have Berrios, Odorizzi, and like... guys. My guess is GM's are willing to take the gamble on lesser players. Much easier to take a shot on Hill and guys who's not expensive. As time moves on, I'm going "*gasp* think maybe there's not anyone who values Price at even 60 million." We will get our answer soon enough in 6 weeks if pitchers and catcher report and he's still here. At that point, the Sox got to hope Price doesn't get injured (in spring training) and a team that invested in their team this season had a pitcher go down in spring training.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 31, 2019 16:45:28 GMT -5
Meanwhile, the Sox have no 5th starter. No first baseman. No bullpen help. No backup catcher because of this trade and the idea of staying under the CBT.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Dec 31, 2019 18:49:18 GMT -5
Meanwhile, the Sox have no 5th starter. No first baseman. No bullpen help. No backup catcher because of this trade and the idea of staying under the CBT. Meamwhile, we are still on holiday/holyday mode, with lots of FA out there, and Bloom making his plans. And meanwhile the Sox have Chavis and Dalbec as good 1B options and Moreland remains on the market. Until/unless Price or Eovaldi is traded for $$$, the Sox currently have 5 starters plus Johnson, Velasquez, Houck in reserve. So many scenarios left to play. Not worried a bit, not even anxious.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jan 2, 2020 7:28:29 GMT -5
MLB.com ran down the needs of every team as of the new year, in detail.
Teams they say are looking to add SP and hence may be potential Price destinations, ranked roughly by likelihood based on need and money they seem to have to spend:
Angels Dodgers
Giants
Braves Blue Jays Brewers
It doesn't suck that two of three teams that could really use Price are divisional rivals, and that two are crosstown rivals. Or that there's almost nobody else of his caliber available.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Jan 2, 2020 8:29:13 GMT -5
Giants are in full rebuild mode. The bottom 3 team's have the money, but won't spend it. Braves, Blue Jays, Brewers. Brewers just cut payroll. Blue Jays already added guys. The Braves haven't spent any money on anyone (besides homegrown talent) for as long as I can remember now.
Angels and Dodgers are the best bet, but it's a coin flip if they actually do it considering it will out them both over the CBT.
Hope Bloom can pull it off.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 2, 2020 9:08:19 GMT -5
Not sure how you figure the Red Sox don't have a fifth starter: they have Sale, Price, Rodriguez, Eovaldi, and Perez. The assumption that they're going to trade Price is also the assumption that trading Price is what other moves are contingent on, right? So, if they're standing pat/stuck, then they have a 5th starter. If there are moves coming, then we have no idea what they're going to have and not, so getting upset because they might only trade people and not acquire any seems kinda silly.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 2, 2020 10:41:11 GMT -5
Giants are in full rebuild mode. The bottom 3 team's have the money, but won't spend it. Braves, Blue Jays, Brewers. Brewers just cut payroll. Blue Jays already added guys. The Braves haven't spent any money on anyone (besides homegrown talent) for as long as I can remember now.Angels and Dodgers are the best bet, but it's a coin flip if they actually do it considering it will out them both over the CBT. Hope Bloom can pull it off. Donaldson, man. Price could even come in a little under the $23m AAV they're not giving him anymore. And I still think the Twins and White Sox should be on the list.
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Post by soxcentral on Jan 2, 2020 12:01:18 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 2, 2020 12:25:46 GMT -5
The Milwaukee Brewers spend the oodles of money they're making? Wouldn't that be an affront to Bud Selig's legacy?
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jan 2, 2020 13:00:15 GMT -5
Giants are in full rebuild mode. The bottom 3 team's have the money, but won't spend it. Braves, Blue Jays, Brewers. Brewers just cut payroll. Blue Jays already added guys. The Braves haven't spent any money on anyone (besides homegrown talent) for as long as I can remember now. Angels and Dodgers are the best bet, but it's a coin flip if they actually do it considering it will out them both over the CBT. Hope Bloom can pull it off. Giants lost Bumgarner and the speculation is that they're looking to acquire a name.
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shagworthy
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Post by shagworthy on Jan 2, 2020 13:22:50 GMT -5
Meanwhile, the Sox have no 5th starter. No first baseman. No bullpen help. No backup catcher because of this trade and the idea of staying under the CBT. Meamwhile, we are still on holiday/holyday mode, with lots of FA out there, and Bloom making his plans. And meanwhile the Sox have Chavis and Dalbec as good 1B options and Moreland remains on the market. Until/unless Price or Eovaldi is traded for $$$, the Sox currently have 5 starters plus Johnson, Velasquez, Houck in reserve. So many scenarios left to play. Not worried a bit, not even anxious. Not worried a bit, but I am anxious, mainly because I want to start to see the plan for 2020. I do trust in Bloom though, so long as the ownership group doesn't meddle too much with his plans.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Jan 2, 2020 13:52:45 GMT -5
Giants are in full rebuild mode. The bottom 3 team's have the money, but won't spend it. Braves, Blue Jays, Brewers. Brewers just cut payroll. Blue Jays already added guys. The Braves haven't spent any money on anyone (besides homegrown talent) for as long as I can remember now.Angels and Dodgers are the best bet, but it's a coin flip if they actually do it considering it will out them both over the CBT. Hope Bloom can pull it off. Donaldson, man. Price could even come in a little under the $23m AAV they're not giving him anymore. And I still think the Twins and White Sox should be on the list. Donaldson was a one year flier with absolutely no risk and all the upside. If Donaldson stays injured, they're only in it for 23 million for one year. The Price thing is the exact opposite.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Jan 2, 2020 13:58:22 GMT -5
Not sure how you figure the Red Sox don't have a fifth starter: they have Sale, Price, Rodriguez, Eovaldi, and Perez. The assumption that they're going to trade Price is also the assumption that trading Price is what other moves are contingent on, right? So, if they're standing pat/stuck, then they have a 5th starter. If there are moves coming, then we have no idea what they're going to have and not, so getting upset because they might only trade people and not acquire any seems kinda silly. The only hope for the Red Sox is that they spend the money and get stuck if they want to keep the team together for a competitive 2020. Staying under the CBT this year gives the Sox more of a shot at extending Mookie in free agency next year. So the Sox are in this rabit hole of picking their poison. That's a pretty good reason to be upset. The Sox should be just spending the money in both scenarios without blinking an eye.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 2, 2020 14:19:36 GMT -5
Donaldson, man. Price could even come in a little under the $23m AAV they're not giving him anymore. And I still think the Twins and White Sox should be on the list. Donaldson was a one year flier with absolutely no risk and all the upside. If Donaldson stays injured, they're only in it for 23 million for one year. The Price thing is the exact opposite. I'm not sure the math works out on three being the "exact opposite" of one but I'll take your word for it.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Jan 2, 2020 14:28:04 GMT -5
Donaldson was a one year flier with absolutely no risk and all the upside. If Donaldson stays injured, they're only in it for 23 million for one year. The Price thing is the exact opposite. I'm not sure the math works out on three being the "exact opposite" of one but I'll take your word for it. I mean, yeah, that's the definition of exact opposite. Longer term, more risk.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 2, 2020 16:17:34 GMT -5
Pitchers and catchers reports on February 11th. So it's not like we have months and months here. It's kinda of crazy how slow everything is moving. The big guys signed kinda early this year, which I thought would move the market along more. It just hasn't happened. Let's pick a path. If our owner was truthful and resetting was just a goal, then we should have options. Can't find the right deal, then keep Price and build a team for next year. It's going to be a lot easier trading him when he shows he's healthy and pitching well. Let's give this team one more legit shot at a championship!
I miss the old days, when this time of year most free agents had already signed and most major trades already happened. You know when teams spent money and most teams wanted to try and win the next year.
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Post by texs31 on Jan 2, 2020 16:50:05 GMT -5
Since neither of the 2 paths were ever going to involve spending outside the organization this offseason, I'm not sure what the rush is. Both paths are still in play as much as they were when the offseason started.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 2, 2020 17:10:43 GMT -5
Pitchers and catchers reports on February 11th. So it's not like we have months and months here. It's kinda of crazy how slow everything is moving. The big guys signed kinda early this year, which I thought would move the market along more. It just hasn't happened. Let's pick a path. If our owner was truthful and resetting was just a goal, then we should have options. Can't find the right deal, then keep Price and build a team for next year. It's going to be a lot easier trading him when he shows he's healthy and pitching well. Let's give this team one more legit shot at a championship! I miss the old days, when this time of year most free agents had already signed and most major trades already happened. You know when teams spent money and most teams wanted to try and win the next year. I think a lot of the problem (if it is one) is that all 30 teams are using analytics so that teams aren't getting ripped off or being really stupid anymore. Back 25 years ago, teams would do things like let Wade Boggs walk because he had a .261 BABIP, 84 points lower than his career average. Today, every single team in the league would know that it was a BABIP blip and he's worth just as much as he was the year before. There are a lot less trades because the only players that any team wants to trade are players that other teams don't want to trade for. All 30 teams also know the value of prospects, years of control, and the huge risks involved with signing big long contracts, especially when the league is no longer dominated by 30 something years olds. All 30 teams know whether they have playoff aspirations and how many years their window will be open for or when their window will open in the future. The ones who don't have playoff aspirations aren't going to be signing anyone of note. They're just hoarding prospects since that's the only way to build anything these days. It's a lot easier for trades to happen when teams value players vastly differently and that isn't the case anymore. Everyone knows how much everyone is worth. The only advantage that teams can have now is budget and finding market inefficiencies, and those seem to be getting smaller.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jan 2, 2020 17:19:42 GMT -5
I'm not sure the math works out on three being the "exact opposite" of one but I'll take your word for it. I mean, yeah, that's the definition of exact opposite. Longer term, more risk. 'Even after the Braves signed Cole Hamels to a one-year, $18 million deal, they continued to monitor Madison Bumgarner’s market. But they were never willing to match the five-year, $85 million deal Bumgarner got from the D-backs. Contract length concerns also limited Atlanta's pursuit of Hyun-Jin Ryu." -- the mlb.com story that was the basis of my listing them
Actually, that's the exact opposite.
Steamer projects Ryu with 2.8 bWAR in 31 starts, Price with 3.1 in 29. Price is better and also has more risk and upside. It's three years instead of four.
They were presumably in on Bumgarner for 4 years and for Ryu for 3, so there is certainly a salary they would be willing to pay Price for three years. They'll probably be outbid by a team with more of a need, which is why I listed them where I did.
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Post by jackiebradleyjrjr on Jan 2, 2020 17:30:19 GMT -5
Pitchers and catchers reports on February 11th. So it's not like we have months and months here. It's kinda of crazy how slow everything is moving. The big guys signed kinda early this year, which I thought would move the market along more. It just hasn't happened. Let's pick a path. If our owner was truthful and resetting was just a goal, then we should have options. Can't find the right deal, then keep Price and build a team for next year. It's going to be a lot easier trading him when he shows he's healthy and pitching well. Let's give this team one more legit shot at a championship! I miss the old days, when this time of year most free agents had already signed and most major trades already happened. You know when teams spent money and most teams wanted to try and win the next year. You’re right... pitchers report soon— don’t you think that suggests teams with pitching needs are going to get very anxious very soon? The Sox were never gonna get a decent deal as long as other options remained in free agency. Now that those options have become very shallow, teams are going to circle back to the Sox. Unloading Price for a reasonable deal was always going to take time and patience. The only reason we need to “pick a path” right now would be to satisfy certain impatient members of the baseball writing community— that’s hardly a reason to do it.
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