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Post by fenwaydouble on Dec 16, 2019 14:45:32 GMT -5
Henry is to blame for not reigning in Dombrowski after they won the WS. Like the Eovaldi signing never should have been allowed if they all knew they'd have zero budget room last season and would be faced with cutting payroll this season. I know it's been discussed before, but I still can't understand what happened with the Eovaldi deal. How could they put themselves in this position right before their stars were set to hit free agency (at that point even Bogaerts and Sale hadn't been extended yet)? Unless Henry indicated that he was willing to pay everybody and then changed his mind midway through the season, it was a downright negligent move by Dombrowski and ownership alike.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 16, 2019 14:57:36 GMT -5
dmaine is known for pushing the envelope with some posts ? What's the big deal ?? I don't agree with the money in the Perez signing, that is for sure. If a culture of increased communication leads to a stronger franchise, i am all for it. I am cautious whenever I read about something that refers to an improvement over the Dombrowski regime, until there is data to supper the change being quantifiable...vis a vis....wins / titles. I know people around here may be frustrated about the state of the farm / luxury tax / health of the franchise from Dombrowski regime, but winning 3 straight division titles and a world championship comes along less frequently than Haley's comet when your a Sox fan. Any Bloom criticism is absolutely fair game....be isn't managing the Rays anymore. If someone doesn't like something...they should say it. I personally am glad LaRussa is gone and am anxiously waiting for Blooms successes as well Let's look at the differences between the beginning of the Dombrowski regime and the Bloom regime. Dombrowski had a ton or budget room, an incredible young and greatly improving core, the best farm system in baseball and an owner who hired him specifically to spend money and trade prospects to push the team over the top. There are probably a dozen GMs who could have won with what Dombrowski was handed.Ohh that is definitely not true. Dombrowski correctly identified and acquired the players he sought after. A lot of GM's have tried to do this (like when Cashman tried to trade for Cole), but have come up empty. Dombrowski came away with Sale, Eovaldi, and Pearce who was instrumental in winning and putting together the best Red Sox team on record. He was the perfect guy for what they hired him to do. Too many GM's go in afraid to lose deals. Dombrowski didn't and flat out executed trades like these. See guy, get guy.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 16, 2019 15:07:32 GMT -5
Let's look at the differences between the beginning of the Dombrowski regime and the Bloom regime. Dombrowski had a ton or budget room, an incredible young and greatly improving core, the best farm system in baseball and an owner who hired him specifically to spend money and trade prospects to push the team over the top. There are probably a dozen GMs who could have won with what Dombrowski was handed.Ohh that is definitely not true. Dombrowski correctly identified and acquired the players he sought after. A lot of GM's have tried to do this (like when Cashman tried to trade for Cole), but have come up empty. Dombrowski came away with Sale, Eovaldi, and Pearce who was instrumental in winning and putting together the best Red Sox team on record. He was the perfect guy for what they hired him to do. Too many GM's go in afraid to lose deals. Dombrowski didn't and flat out executed trades like these. See guy, get guy. The Red Sox farm system was so much better than the Yankees' has been at any point. Dombrowski got his guys, but he paid a lot for every one of them. It was almost as if he was going after guys that were only going to be traded if someone blew the team away with an offer that no other team would ever come close to matching. Then he signs someone like JDM as the lone bidder for about $8M more per season than any DH has ever made in baseball history. He probably walks into Mercedes dealers and doesn't even try to negotiate a better deal that sticker.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 16, 2019 15:25:45 GMT -5
Ohh that is definitely not true. Dombrowski correctly identified and acquired the players he sought after. A lot of GM's have tried to do this (like when Cashman tried to trade for Cole), but have come up empty. Dombrowski came away with Sale, Eovaldi, and Pearce who was instrumental in winning and putting together the best Red Sox team on record. He was the perfect guy for what they hired him to do. Too many GM's go in afraid to lose deals. Dombrowski didn't and flat out executed trades like these. See guy, get guy. The Red Sox farm system was so much better than the Yankees' has been at any point. Dombrowski got his guys, but he paid a lot for every one of them. It was almost as if he was going after guys that were only going to be traded if someone blew the team away with an offer that no other team would ever come close to matching. Then he signs someone like JDM as the lone bidder for about $8M more per season than any DH has ever made in baseball history. He probably walks into Mercedes dealers and doesn't even try to negotiate a better deal that sticker. Didn't matter if the Red Sox farm system was better at the time. Dombrowski was a artist at getting the deal for the guy he wanted. Instead, guys like Cashman are afraid to up the offer for a Cole because he didn't want to lose the trade. The Red Sox won because of it. Dombrowski wasn't scared. Not one bit. He just wanted to win. That's what he was brought here to do. Imagine if the Nationals acquired Sale instead of the Sox? Debatable that the Sox had the number one seed and the division in 2018. Cashman sure as heck learned his lesson on Cole and paid full sticker price for him in free agency. There's A LOT of value in identifying the right talent and GETTING that talent, to sum it up.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Dec 16, 2019 16:23:17 GMT -5
The Red Sox farm system was so much better than the Yankees' has been at any point. Dombrowski got his guys, but he paid a lot for every one of them. It was almost as if he was going after guys that were only going to be traded if someone blew the team away with an offer that no other team would ever come close to matching. Then he signs someone like JDM as the lone bidder for about $8M more per season than any DH has ever made in baseball history. He probably walks into Mercedes dealers and doesn't even try to negotiate a better deal that sticker. Didn't matter if the Red Sox farm system was better at the time. Dombrowski was a artist at getting the deal for the guy he wanted. Instead, guys like Cashman are afraid to up the offer for a Cole because he didn't want to lose the trade. The Red Sox won because of it. Dombrowski wasn't scared. Not one bit. He just wanted to win. That's what he was brought here to do. Imagine if the Nationals acquired Sale instead of the Sox? Debatable that the Sox had the number one seed and the division in 2018. Cashman sure as heck learned his lesson on Cole and paid full sticker price for him in free agency. There's A LOT of value in identifying the right talent and GETTING that talent, to sum it up. He's not an artist at getting the guy he wants, he just pays such an exorbitant amount of capital to get them. That's more desperation and short-sightedness than art. Any trade that results in a World Series is a win in my book but let's not act like DD didn't completely tank this team in the long-term to do it. I don't necessarily agree with the idea that there are a dozen GM's who could've brought the Red Sox a title in the same time frame but there are definitely a handful that could've and they all wouldn't have left the team in such a bad situation. Also, not sure if you realized, but Gerrit Cole is a Yankee. Cashman got him, he didn't lose anything. It doesn't matter if it's a year and a half later, the guys that were going to be a factor then are a factor now and their pretty-good farm system has gotten a chance to develop. Not making a trade because you don't want to lose the trade isn't being scared, it's being smart and understanding there are always other opportunities when you're a team like the Yankees. Finally, if you want to credit DD with identifying Chris Sale as the right talent, then I'm pretty sure there are millions of people who watch baseball that could have done a similar job as DD. Not too hard to identify talent when that talent is consistently finishing top-5 in Cy Young voting.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 16, 2019 16:23:29 GMT -5
It's a lot easier to make trades when you have a better farm system. If you don't agree with that, there's nothing left to talk about.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 16, 2019 16:30:18 GMT -5
This thread started as dunking on a brutal Bloom take and has now turned to rehashing old Dombrowski stuff (which I guess could happen in that thread if people REALLY want to go there).
Let's find a reason to keep this thread open?
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 16, 2019 16:52:29 GMT -5
It's a lot easier to make trades when you have a better farm system. If you don't agree with that, there's nothing left to talk about. It's also a lot easier to win with the right collection of talent. You're talking about trades and value. I'm talking about winning. Saying the Sox could have won with a dozen other GMs completely takes away the credit Dombrowski did. It's a bad take imho.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 16, 2019 16:58:01 GMT -5
DD gets deals done because he doesn't care about the margins. He has the balls to trade Moncada and Kopech in the same trade. Very few GMs would take that risk, I know I wouldn't have.
Bloom was brought in because of where we are. We wanted a creative guy that can make creative deals. Just look at Tampa dumping money and switching OFs and getting a top 100 prospect. I don't understand the he has no money or prospects. Even at 208 million he has more cap space than the Rays could ever imagine. He also has a owner that would put off resetting it he can make a great case not to.
I've yet to see much creativity from Bloom. I don't mind the players he brought in, but man with a very tight budget the Perez signing is a head scratcher. Minnesota paid him $500,000 rather than pick up his 7.5 million option. Then we jump on him early in free agency.
So let's see some creativity already. He has a bunch of assets he could trade and make Tampa type deals.
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 16, 2019 16:58:08 GMT -5
I am not sure if you are referring to my post, but if so, what about the 3 straight division titles ? I think your post inspired my attempt at humor, so yes i guess I was piggybacking a bit. All in good fun. Now that I have read the rest of the posts I see some levity was overdue.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 16, 2019 17:08:14 GMT -5
Didn't matter if the Red Sox farm system was better at the time. Dombrowski was a artist at getting the deal for the guy he wanted. Instead, guys like Cashman are afraid to up the offer for a Cole because he didn't want to lose the trade. The Red Sox won because of it. Dombrowski wasn't scared. Not one bit. He just wanted to win. That's what he was brought here to do. Imagine if the Nationals acquired Sale instead of the Sox? Debatable that the Sox had the number one seed and the division in 2018. Cashman sure as heck learned his lesson on Cole and paid full sticker price for him in free agency. There's A LOT of value in identifying the right talent and GETTING that talent, to sum it up. He's not an artist at getting the guy he wants, he just pays such an exorbitant amount of capital to get them. That's more desperation and short-sightedness than art. Any trade that results in a World Series is a win in my book but let's not act like DD didn't completely tank this team in the long-term to do it. I don't necessarily agree with the idea that there are a dozen GM's who could've brought the Red Sox a title in the same time frame but there are definitely a handful that could've and they all wouldn't have left the team in such a bad situation. Also, not sure if you realized, but Gerrit Cole is a Yankee. Cashman got him, he didn't lose anything. It doesn't matter if it's a year and a half later, the guys that were going to be a factor then are a factor now and their pretty-good farm system has gotten a chance to develop. Not making a trade because you don't want to lose the trade isn't being scared, it's being smart and understanding there are always other opportunities when you're a team like the Yankees. Finally, if you want to credit DD with identifying Chris Sale as the right talent, then I'm pretty sure there are millions of people who watch baseball that could have done a similar job as DD. Not too hard to identify talent when that talent is consistently finishing top-5 in Cy Young voting. First, completely disagree it's not a art. It takes a aggressive approach to land trades and close the deal. Second, the Yankees took 2 years to land Cole. Not a year and a half. The Yankees wasted essentially 2 years of their window to win, which might be more costly than any other prospect. Third, don't want to credit him with Sale? Fine. Eovaldi and Pearce were pretty important. Ohh and yeah for all that prospect trading he did, he kept some kid named Devers. Arguably the best prospect of the last 5 years since Mookie (which again goes to credit his ability to identify talent).
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 16, 2019 17:17:02 GMT -5
If I am not mistaken haven't I read that Tampa Bay has just about the same if not better record since the day Bloom took them over?
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Dec 16, 2019 17:22:51 GMT -5
This thread started as dunking on a brutal Bloom take and has now turned to rehashing old Dombrowski stuff (which I guess could happen in that thread if people REALLY want to go there). Let's find a reason to keep this thread open? You're right Chris, I'll go back to dunking on the initial take. Imagine being mad about extremely inexpensive signings when a) the team doesn't have any money and b) the team Bloom came from was notorious for making good things happen with cheap, under-the-radar signings like this. I don't know what the expectation could've possibly been.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 16, 2019 17:24:47 GMT -5
Judging Bloom or any of the moves he has made before a single game is played is just insane. /thread
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 16, 2019 17:58:17 GMT -5
If I am not mistaken haven't I read that Tampa Bay has just about the same if not better record since the day Bloom took them over? Bloom never "took them over," so...
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Dec 16, 2019 18:03:34 GMT -5
If I am not mistaken haven't I read that Tampa Bay has just about the same if not better record since the day Bloom took them over? Bloom never "took them over," so... I think it's a joke
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 16, 2019 18:28:56 GMT -5
I am not sure if you are referring to my post, but if so, what about the 3 straight division titles ? I think your post inspired my attempt at humor, so yes i guess I was piggybacking a bit. All in good fun. Now that I have read the rest of the posts I see some levity was overdue. just looking for clarification,to me the 3 straight division titles is quite an accomplishment.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 16, 2019 18:45:47 GMT -5
Judging Bloom or any of the moves he has made before a single game is played is just insane. /thread nobody is judging his record as Sox GM. there was commentary on his moves thus far. It may be ill timed to some, but IMO that should not matter at all. He is the GM of the team, so now he gets judged. There is a lot of groupthink that goes on around here anymore. It has driven some well meaning passionate fans/members underground. Somebody posted something and 13 people liked a 2 word response. I mean, is that what this site is about ? Someone can't say something that may be off the wall ? That is what I am posting about. I want Bloom to be more successful than any other GM in Sox history
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Post by telson13 on Dec 16, 2019 18:56:39 GMT -5
This thread started as dunking on a brutal Bloom take and has now turned to rehashing old Dombrowski stuff (which I guess could happen in that thread if people REALLY want to go there). Let's find a reason to keep this thread open? Here you go: 1) Bloom has already replaced Porcello with a younger pitcher having probable higher upside at this point, at 60% cost with a low-cost option year at a time when league-average SPs (which said pitcher has been, historically) go for roughly 2.5x that cost. 2) Bloom managed to non-tender two players and then get them back on reduced-value deals, showing an ability to maximize savings while identifying useful, potential-upside talent at the fringes, an area the team hadn’t been effective in for the past decade. 3) He’s cautiously (intelligently?) waited on market/FA development to define areas of potential attack in trades, including the likely (substantially) improved value of higher-end SP. 4) All indications are that he’s reversing the “my way or the highway” approach of the last few years, which suggests that he’ll get substantially better internal communication and more complete player/approach evaluation by leveraging the talents and abilities of the *entire* staff, rather than a select few individuals. Dombrowski inherited an ideal situation; Bloom is inheriting a very difficult one. I think expecting any sort of immediate success (in the form of titles, divisional, league, or WS) from Bloom borders on delusional. What I’m looking for is a smooth transition to prolonged success, including an improving farm, better 40-man roster management (see, “5”- the grab-n-stash of Arauz) and 25 (26 now) man roster use at the fringes, especially with regards to cost/value, and retention/development of talent on reasonable terms.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Dec 16, 2019 18:59:09 GMT -5
The Red Sox farm system was so much better than the Yankees' has been at any point. Dombrowski got his guys, but he paid a lot for every one of them. It was almost as if he was going after guys that were only going to be traded if someone blew the team away with an offer that no other team would ever come close to matching. Then he signs someone like JDM as the lone bidder for about $8M more per season than any DH has ever made in baseball history. He probably walks into Mercedes dealers and doesn't even try to negotiate a better deal that sticker. Didn't matter if the Red Sox farm system was better at the time. Dombrowski was a artist at getting the deal for the guy he wanted. Instead, guys like Cashman are afraid to up the offer for a Cole because he didn't want to lose the trade. The Red Sox won because of it. Dombrowski wasn't scared. Not one bit. He just wanted to win. That's what he was brought here to do. Imagine if the Nationals acquired Sale instead of the Sox? Debatable that the Sox had the number one seed and the division in 2018. Cashman sure as heck learned his lesson on Cole and paid full sticker price for him in free agency. There's A LOT of value in identifying the right talent and GETTING that talent, to sum it up. A lot can happen with signings like Cole. He may feel that he is set for life and the competitive part is not as strong as before or he can try to prove that he needs to show how much he deserves the contract that he overthrows or just forgets what got him there. this is just speculation on my part, but you can't deny that it affects some players exactly like this. Many players have received ridiculous bomnuses in free agency and have fallen flat on their face. Ellsbury..injured for the most part with the Yankees is a good example. I don't know if this will happen with Cole, but he is in a high pressure situation in NY and can create his own problems with the base.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 16, 2019 18:59:42 GMT -5
Judging Bloom or any of the moves he has made before a single game is played is just insane. /thread nobody is judging his record as Sox GM. there was commentary on his moves thus far. It may be ill timed to some, but IMO that should not matter at all. He is the GM of the team, so now he gets judged. There is a lot of groupthink that goes on around here anymore. It has driven some well meaning passionate fans/members underground. Somebody posted something and 13 people liked a 2 word response. I mean, is that what this site is about ? Someone can't say something that may be off the wall ? That is what I am posting about. I want Bloom to be more successful than any other GM in Sox history I think “off-the-wall” hot takes that border on trolling aren’t what this site is about. That stuff’s better suited for BDC or whatever. I’m all for stimulating discussion, but there’s a litany of better ways to do it.
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Post by p23w on Dec 16, 2019 19:03:01 GMT -5
Dombrowski? Overrated IMO. Cashman? Couldn't sign his #1 pick the year the NYY's won their last WS. Paid a record amount for the same guy 10 years later after the failure of his "we can win it all with a monster bullpen" strategy failed. Bloom? Faced with a daunting task. Doesn't have Dombrowski's purse or farm system, doesn't have Tampa's young pitching talent and is in the same division as the "Juggernaut" Yankees. If he and Cora get this team to the post season in the next 2 years I'll be flabbergasted (delighted but flabbergasted). Best wishes to Bloom.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 16, 2019 19:07:32 GMT -5
Didn't matter if the Red Sox farm system was better at the time. Dombrowski was a artist at getting the deal for the guy he wanted. Instead, guys like Cashman are afraid to up the offer for a Cole because he didn't want to lose the trade. The Red Sox won because of it. Dombrowski wasn't scared. Not one bit. He just wanted to win. That's what he was brought here to do. Imagine if the Nationals acquired Sale instead of the Sox? Debatable that the Sox had the number one seed and the division in 2018. Cashman sure as heck learned his lesson on Cole and paid full sticker price for him in free agency. There's A LOT of value in identifying the right talent and GETTING that talent, to sum it up. A lot can happen with signings like Cole. He may feel that he is set for life and the competitive part is not as strong as before or he can try to prove that he needs to show how much he deserves the contract that he overthrows or just forgets what got him there. this is just speculation on my part, but you can't deny that it affects some players exactly like this. Many players have received ridiculous bomnuses in free agency and have fallen flat on their face. Ellsbury..injured for the most part with the Yankees is a good example. I don't know if this will happen with Cole, but he is in a high pressure situation in NY and can create his own problems with the base. I don’t think Cole will suffer a pay-related competitiveness drop, but I do think that that park will affect him. Whether that translates into a legitimate “issue,” especially with HR (and poorer results), snowballing into a fan dissatisfaction issue that further affects Cole’s performance, I don’t know. Cole’s a pretty tremendous pitcher, but in light of the sign-stealing, you gotta wonder if Trevor Bauer’s insinuation that the huge (300 rpm) spin bumps Houston pitchers were seeing was fueled by foul play might have some validity.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 16, 2019 19:10:29 GMT -5
nobody is judging his record as Sox GM. there was commentary on his moves thus far. It may be ill timed to some, but IMO that should not matter at all. He is the GM of the team, so now he gets judged. There is a lot of groupthink that goes on around here anymore. It has driven some well meaning passionate fans/members underground. Somebody posted something and 13 people liked a 2 word response. I mean, is that what this site is about ? Someone can't say something that may be off the wall ? That is what I am posting about. I want Bloom to be more successful than any other GM in Sox history I think “off-the-wall” hot takes that border on trolling aren’t what this site is about. That stuff’s better suited for BDC or whatever. I’m all for stimulating discussion, but there’s a litany of better ways to do it. The site is about a lot things. This is how he posts. It should not be news to anyone who has been around here. No one person or group of people gets to determine how another person decides to communicate, particularly in an adult forum / community. There is alot trolling all around here, some of it coming from the leadership of the site. I know, I have read it. A couple of people I used to like having around aren't here anymore because of it. Maybe my time is getting short, but I didn't like the way he was piled on here and, I guess, that is that.
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 16, 2019 20:23:41 GMT -5
I think your post inspired my attempt at humor, so yes i guess I was piggybacking a bit. All in good fun. Now that I have read the rest of the posts I see some levity was overdue. just looking for clarification,to me the 3 straight division titles is quite an accomplishment. and under appreciated, as it is never mentioned.
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