SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
|
Post by borisman on Jun 11, 2020 13:42:12 GMT -5
Chris, the Mookie pick itself wasn't lucky. He had talent. There's no denying it. The fact that Senquez Golson didn't sign with us made the Mookie signing possible. So yeah, it was lucky for us.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 11, 2020 13:43:14 GMT -5
OK. So as for my other question, would you like them to then stop drafting middle infielders? Do you think that for some reason they suck at identifying middle infielders as opposed to other positions? What is it about middle infielders that would make them bad at that but fine at drafting, say, corner infielders?
Also, what kind of success rate would you like them to have on middle infielders? How often do you want them to select a middle infielder you would call a successful pick, and what's that standard?
I'm not trying to make a point. I'm trying to figure out what you expect and what your point is, because neither is clear to me.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 11, 2020 13:43:45 GMT -5
Chris, the Mookie pick itself was lucky. He had talent. There's no denying it. The fact that Senquez Golson didn't sign with us made the Mookie signing possible. So yeah, it was lucky for us. That's been disproven. Golson's offer was on the table until the deadline hit and after Betts agreed to terms.
|
|
|
Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Jun 11, 2020 13:46:50 GMT -5
OK. So as for my other question, would you like them to then stop drafting middle infielders? Do you think that for some reason they suck at identifying middle infielders as opposed to other positions? What is it about middle infielders that would make them bad at that but fine at drafting, say, corner infielders? Also, what kind of success rate would you like them to have on middle infielders? How often do you want them to select a middle infielder you would call a successful pick, and what's that standard? I'm not trying to make a point. I'm trying to figure out what you expect and what your point is, because neither is clear to me. Maybe they could switch it up and go BPA occasionally. Honestly though, if everything doesn't fall perfectly tonight, than was it worth the risk?
|
|
|
Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jun 11, 2020 14:21:51 GMT -5
If you admit that Mookie was pure luck, and that Marrero had a negative WAR, we can agree to disagree You're approaching drafting like the teams get into a room with a list of names pulled from Baseball America's draft rankings having never seen any of them before, except maybe videos online of some of the top guys. No, Mookie Betts was not a "lucky" pick. If you read Alex Speier's book, it goes into the amount of work Danny Watkins did scouting him. To say any draft pick is "lucky" is to completely discount the entire scouting process and act like it doesn't exist. The Red Sox haven't drafted and developed a middle infielder since Pedroia. You can say they at least drafted Betts as a shortstop and he became a stud, just not in the middle infield. What's your point? Would you like them to stop drafting middle infielders? Give up on it? It's not clear what your point is unless you're just trying to pick fights. You have made clear you do not like this pick. That's fine! That's certainly a defensible opinion. You apparently also seem to think they suck at drafting (the almost entirely homegrown lineup that won the 2018 WS seems to be a strong argument against your point, but whatever) or something. You're entitled to that opinion although the numbers don't even remotely bear that out. If you have a point to make, please actually make the point, because you're not doing anything other than kvetching right now, and this really isn't the forum for that. If they suck at drafting middle infielders, please point out the middle infielders they should have drafted instead. Show that they're actually worse than other teams at drafting middle infielders and that it's not just the normal failure rate of prospects that you're angry about. But don't just whine about it and get in arguments with people. Thanks. Much more well said than anything I could've come up with. I was trying to find the right word for it but you absolutely nailed it with "kvetching". Kudos.
|
|
|
Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jun 11, 2020 14:23:42 GMT -5
OK. So as for my other question, would you like them to then stop drafting middle infielders? Do you think that for some reason they suck at identifying middle infielders as opposed to other positions? What is it about middle infielders that would make them bad at that but fine at drafting, say, corner infielders? Also, what kind of success rate would you like them to have on middle infielders? How often do you want them to select a middle infielder you would call a successful pick, and what's that standard? I'm not trying to make a point. I'm trying to figure out what you expect and what your point is, because neither is clear to me. Maybe they could switch it up and go BPA occasionally. Honestly though, if everything doesn't fall perfectly tonight, than was it worth the risk? Lugo, Song (!!!!!!), Casas, and especially Groome are pretty recent examples of them going pure BPA.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 11, 2020 14:24:39 GMT -5
OK. So as for my other question, would you like them to then stop drafting middle infielders? Do you think that for some reason they suck at identifying middle infielders as opposed to other positions? What is it about middle infielders that would make them bad at that but fine at drafting, say, corner infielders? Also, what kind of success rate would you like them to have on middle infielders? How often do you want them to select a middle infielder you would call a successful pick, and what's that standard? I'm not trying to make a point. I'm trying to figure out what you expect and what your point is, because neither is clear to me. Maybe they could switch it up and go BPA occasionally. Honestly though, if everything doesn't fall perfectly tonight, than was it worth the risk? On the first part, assuming you mean with the first pick, other than Cannon last year, when is the last time you think they didn't just pick the best player they felt was available on the board? Maybe David Murphy in 2003, three GMs and three scouting directors ago? And if you don't mean with their first pick, it seems like you're just being completely hyperbolic and/or unrealistic. Maybe I don't get your point? On the second, we don't even know what the plan is. Maybe they've got a list of 10 guys they want to pick from. Maybe it's 20. Maybe it's 5. Who knows? We have to wait and see.
|
|
|
Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jun 11, 2020 14:24:53 GMT -5
I'd imagine if JT Ginn doesn't go in the next 10 picks or so, he's going back to MSU. Unless some team has the money to pay him like he's going in the next 10 picks (wink, wink). Maybe, but he's also in a different situation than a high school guy because he is going to be eligible next year. So if it's partially a pride thing (and also he thinks he can improve his stock when he's healthy), then I think he has more leverage than just about anyone. You can make the argument high school guys can leverage a JuCo but that's much more arduous of a process to actually go through with and with the virus who knows what the process of even switching over to a JuCo would be right now, if it's changed.
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on Jun 11, 2020 14:58:24 GMT -5
Keith Law has a Day 1 analysis. Here's an excerpt: So the Red Sox … did something. Nick Yorke wasn’t on my top 100 prospects for the draft, and he wasn’t close to it. He wasn’t on MLB Pipeline’s either, if you want a second opinion. Yorke is a high school second baseman, and the only reason I didn’t write in “The Inside Game” that spending high picks on high school second basemen is a bad idea is that nobody spends high picks on high school second basemen because it’s a bad idea. Yorke has a good swing, geared more for average than power, and he doesn’t have the range or arm for shortstop.
|
|
|
Post by chr31ter on Jun 11, 2020 15:00:18 GMT -5
Is Yorke so unathletic that he can't play any other position if the bat ends up translating?
Not sure I'm too upset that the Red Sox said "2B" when they picked him.
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on Jun 11, 2020 15:04:14 GMT -5
So with this sub-slot pick of sub 100 playerYorke, have they essentially missed out on the rest of the high quality (i.e non-org/cup of coffee guys) college players? I think there's a chance a draft eligible sophomore falls due to a big bonus demand and/or injury concerns. Maybe Cole Henry or JT Ginn? Barring that, I think you're right. Cole Henry - meh. A #5 starter. We need more of those because...oh, wait. Ginn's interesting but that delivery is very problematic.
|
|
|
Post by Legion of Bloom on Jun 11, 2020 15:21:26 GMT -5
If the bat is real, I could care less if he’s a 2B.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 11, 2020 17:27:33 GMT -5
Is Yorke so unathletic that he can't play any other position if the bat ends up translating? Not sure I'm too upset that the Red Sox said "2B" when they picked him. Listed as a solid athlete, so he's not a Betts. Yet it's his arm, they make it sound so-so for 2nd base after shoulder surgery. So unless his arm gets better, where would you play him? Can't play the OF if your arm is so-so at 2B. You have to hope it gets better with more time.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 11, 2020 17:34:35 GMT -5
can someone in the know explain why MLB teams are reluctant to draft HS second baseman in the first round? I am gonna guess because the best HS players don't normally play 2nd base, or maybe it is because it is easier to transition top HS infield talent to 2nd ? I am aware he didn't actually play that position, but they see him as that. I just would like to know the reasons MLB teams don't draft them in the 1st round, historically. It limits your options if he can only play 2B and yes usually the top guys will play SS or 3B and maybe need to make a change later on. Look at Chavis, his ability to change positions was huge. Look at Betts. It just makes his path a lot harder if you have zero options from day one. It's why teams don't take pure relievers in the first round.
|
|
|
Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jun 11, 2020 17:37:01 GMT -5
can someone in the know explain why MLB teams are reluctant to draft HS second baseman in the first round? I am gonna guess because the best HS players don't normally play 2nd base, or maybe it is because it is easier to transition top HS infield talent to 2nd ? I am aware he didn't actually play that position, but they see him as that. I just would like to know the reasons MLB teams don't draft them in the 1st round, historically. It limits your options if he can only play 2B and yes usually the top guys will play SS or 3B and maybe need to make a change later on. Look at Chavis, his ability to change positions was huge. Look at Betts. It just makes his path a lot harder if you have zero options from day one. It's why teams don't take pure relievers in the first round. I'm not sure it was as much an "ability to change positions" for Chavis as much as it was an inability to play the other ones. Not sure why it matters how they get to second base if they both end up at second base. Also, teams don't draft relievers in the first round because relievers are less valuable than starters, not because they have "limited options".
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 11, 2020 17:50:58 GMT -5
It limits your options if he can only play 2B and yes usually the top guys will play SS or 3B and maybe need to make a change later on. Look at Chavis, his ability to change positions was huge. Look at Betts. It just makes his path a lot harder if you have zero options from day one. It's why teams don't take pure relievers in the first round. I'm not sure it was as much an "ability to change positions" for Chavis as much as it was an inability to play the other ones. Not sure why it matters how they get to second base if they both end up at second base. Also, teams don't draft relievers in the first round because relievers are less valuable than starters, not because they have "limited options". Yeah Chavis moved off of third base because he wasn't a good third baseman. He was a high school shortstop, like Yorke, who everyone knew would move. Instead of moving to third Yorke is going right to second. People are acting like he's a DH. Since when is 2B a nothing defensive position? I get it's not short but good grief. Also I haven't seen that his arm is as bad at second base as you say. BA says above-average arm. MLB says he had solid-average arm strength before the shoulder injury and that hasn't come back, putting a 45 (fringe-average) on it. It's not like it's a 30 arm.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 11, 2020 18:52:36 GMT -5
It limits your options if he can only play 2B and yes usually the top guys will play SS or 3B and maybe need to make a change later on. Look at Chavis, his ability to change positions was huge. Look at Betts. It just makes his path a lot harder if you have zero options from day one. It's why teams don't take pure relievers in the first round. I'm not sure it was as much an "ability to change positions" for Chavis as much as it was an inability to play the other ones. Not sure why it matters how they get to second base if they both end up at second base. Also, teams don't draft relievers in the first round because relievers are less valuable than starters, not because they have "limited options". It gives you options, you can only play one guy at 2B. I've seen enough for Chavis to think he could play 3B in the majors. I think he improved enough to become that player, likely below average, yet good enough with his bat. With his Arm he could also play in the OF Based on tools, 2B is the easiest infield position, besides 1B and the bar for a players bat at 1B is crazy high. There's a reason most teams don't do it. Xander is more valuable at SS than 2B no? Bradley is more valuable at CF than RF no?
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 11, 2020 18:56:08 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jun 11, 2020 18:57:21 GMT -5
I'm not sure it was as much an "ability to change positions" for Chavis as much as it was an inability to play the other ones. Not sure why it matters how they get to second base if they both end up at second base. Also, teams don't draft relievers in the first round because relievers are less valuable than starters, not because they have "limited options". It gives you options, you can only play one guy at 2B. I've seen enough for Chavis to think he could play 3B in the majors. I think he improved enough to become that player, likely below average, yet good enough with his bat. With his Arm he could also play in the OF Based on tools, 2B is the easiest infield position, besides 1B and the bar for a players bat at 1B is crazy high. There's a reason most teams don't do it. Xander is more valuable at SS than 2B no? Bradley is more valuable at CF than RF no? Yes your last two statements are true but is Dustin Pedroia less valuable because he's a second baseman? No, he's valuable because he's good. It doesn't matter what position he is if he ends up being good.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 11, 2020 18:58:23 GMT -5
Question. Do you think Darren Hartwell of NBC Sports Boston knew anything about Yorke before last night? If no, why are you citing this instead of things people who actually cover the draft wrote?
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 11, 2020 19:15:28 GMT -5
It gives you options, you can only play one guy at 2B. I've seen enough for Chavis to think he could play 3B in the majors. I think he improved enough to become that player, likely below average, yet good enough with his bat. With his Arm he could also play in the OF Based on tools, 2B is the easiest infield position, besides 1B and the bar for a players bat at 1B is crazy high. There's a reason most teams don't do it. Xander is more valuable at SS than 2B no? Bradley is more valuable at CF than RF no? Yes your last two statements are true but is Dustin Pedroia less valuable because he's a second baseman? No, he's valuable because he's good. It doesn't matter what position he is if he ends up being good. Sure a good player is a good player, it just limits him. DP was a GG guy, even if his bat didn't come along he was still going to be useful. DP was also picked in the 2nd round. Remember I was answer why no HS 2B in the first round. I don't mind the pick if he's good, it's just risky.
|
|
|
Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jun 11, 2020 19:18:01 GMT -5
Yes your last two statements are true but is Dustin Pedroia less valuable because he's a second baseman? No, he's valuable because he's good. It doesn't matter what position he is if he ends up being good. Sure a good player is a good player, it just limits him. DP was a GG guy, even if his bat didn't come along he was still going to be useful. DP was also picked in the 2nd round. Remember I was answer why no HS 2B in the first round. I don't mind the pick if he's good, it's just risky. Every pick is risky. That's why they pay people a lot of money to watch these guys play a lot more than any of us have.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 11, 2020 19:18:43 GMT -5
Question. Do you think Darren Hartwell of NBC Sports Boston knew anything about Yorke before last night? If no, why are you citing this instead of things people who actually cover the draft wrote? He's just passing along information. Frankly MLB report sounds worse than his 45 grade. Average arm that hasn't bounced back, sounds a lot worse than a grade 45.
|
|
|
Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jun 11, 2020 19:19:43 GMT -5
Question. Do you think Darren Hartwell of NBC Sports Boston knew anything about Yorke before last night? If no, why are you citing this instead of things people who actually cover the draft wrote? He's just passing along information. Frankly MLB report sounds worse than his 45 grade. Average arm that hasn't bounced back, sounds a lot worse than a grade 45. Because injuries take time to heal.
|
|
|
Post by Coreno on Jun 11, 2020 19:58:36 GMT -5
A whole lot is being made of this HS 2B thing over a guy who was a HS SS
|
|
|