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Red Sox Sign RHP Matt Andriese; Reds claim C Deivy Grullon
manfred
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Post by manfred on Dec 24, 2020 9:58:44 GMT -5
Wait... did we get Hunter Renfroe AND Matt Andriese in the same off season?!? My god, it’s all coming together!
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Post by GyIantosca on Dec 24, 2020 14:46:06 GMT -5
Regarding Petey , there on the hook for the full boat , if they cut him now or later? I don’t get that either. It’s really worth having him on the 40 ?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 24, 2020 15:10:56 GMT -5
Wait... did we get Hunter Renfroe AND Matt Andriese in the same off season?!? My god, it’s all coming together! lol. I know you're being facetious but it sure feels like it, doesn't it? I'm looking forward to Jan 4th, when hopefully things will start to move, for most teams. I've watched Chaim Bloom pick at the margins and work the bottom of the roster since he's gotten here. I look forward to a move of substance down the road that can impact the team and no I'm not talking about punting a badly needed 2nd round pick to sign Bauer or Springer which wouldn't make sense. The fact is that the Red Sox have not added a player of significance or impact since signing JD Martinez although you can argue with Pearce and Eovaldi although I see them more as supporting cast members. Bloom did add a core member in Verdugo but given that he's replacing Betts in RF, that's a downgrade, although that's not a swipe at Verdugo who is a legit core member of the team or Bloom, who got 5 plus years of Verdugo for one season of Betts once it was obvious the Sox couldn't or wouldn't sign Betts. I find the Sox core lacking in comparison to most other clubs and the supporting cast woefully short. Bloom is building up the depth so we're not stuck watching the Matt Halls of the world and Andriese helps address that, but what will be interesting is to see how he builds the supporting cast. I suspect that's what January or even early Feb will be about. Two starting pitcher (I would hope), although it might be only be one, which I'd find disappointing. As much as I like Whitlock and know that Andriese is in that almost average category (which is much better than replacement level), at some point they need to do better than signing guys that are mediocre. Mediocre beats replacement level but at some point you can't have an entire team of mediocre either. You obviously need good players, so hopefully we'll see some of that in January. And that goes for the bullpen as well. If the plan is to have Barnes and Brasier head the pen with the hopes that Hernandez and Taylor are ready to shine, and supplement that with mediocrities (as opposed to the AAAA fodder they had last year) then that's still a recipe for problems. They need a reliever or two in high leverage who's better than Barnes. I was disappointed when Raisel Iglesias got dealt to the Angels for very little. He could have helped the Red Sox for half of what Kimbrel was making for the Sox. This tells me they want to go cheaper and are not likely to get Hand or Hendriks as I suspect Hand will get somewhere around 7 - 8 million and Hendriks more. I felt given the circumstances Bloom did well to two talented players for a month of Mitch and I think he did very well in the Pillar deal and Whitlock was a really good selection in the Rule 5 draft. If the Sox don't bring back JBJ, then Bloom erred in not trading him. I'm very curious to see what happens next month and see what Bloom does to add to the supporting cast. I'm hoping for two of Kluber, Sugano ,or Happ. And I'd like Kela and a closer (I'd go for Soria if Hand is too expensive). I'm more interested in what Bloom will do to add to the core with Devers, Bogaerts, E-Rod, and Verdugo representing the next serious contending Red Sox team of the future, who are under the age of 30. That's what Bloom is truly here for. That will take more time. It's like Tom Petty said, "The waiting is the hardest part".
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 24, 2020 15:49:17 GMT -5
Wait... did we get Hunter Renfroe AND Matt Andriese in the same off season?!? My god, it’s all coming together! lol. I know you're being facetious but it sure feels like it, doesn't it? I'm looking forward to Jan 4th, when hopefully things will start to move, for most teams. I've watched Chaim Bloom pick at the margins and work the bottom of the roster since he's gotten here. I look forward to a move of substance down the road that can impact the team and no I'm not talking about punting a badly needed 2nd round pick to sign Bauer or Springer which wouldn't make sense. The fact is that the Red Sox have not added a player of significance or impact since signing JD Martinez although you can argue with Pearce and Eovaldi although I see them more as supporting cast members. Bloom did add a core member in Verdugo but given that he's replacing Betts in RF, that's a downgrade, although that's not a swipe at Verdugo who is a legit core member of the team or Bloom, who got 5 plus years of Verdugo for one season of Betts once it was obvious the Sox couldn't or wouldn't sign Betts. I find the Sox core lacking in comparison to most other clubs and the supporting cast woefully short. Bloom is building up the depth so we're not stuck watching the Matt Halls of the world and Andriese helps address that, but what will be interesting is to see how he builds the supporting cast. I suspect that's what January or even early Feb will be about. Two starting pitcher (I would hope), although it might be only be one, which I'd find disappointing. As much as I like Whitlock and know that Andriese is in that almost average category (which is much better than replacement level), at some point they need to do better than signing guys that are mediocre. Mediocre beats replacement level but at some point you can't have an entire team of mediocre either. You obviously need good players, so hopefully we'll see some of that in January. And that goes for the bullpen as well. If the plan is to have Barnes and Brasier head the pen with the hopes that Hernandez and Taylor are ready to shine, and supplement that with mediocrities (as opposed to the AAAA fodder they had last year) then that's still a recipe for problems. They need a reliever or two in high leverage who's better than Barnes. I was disappointed when Raisel Iglesias got dealt to the Angels for very little. He could have helped the Red Sox for half of what Kimbrel was making for the Sox. This tells me they want to go cheaper and are not likely to get Hand or Hendriks as I suspect Hand will get somewhere around 7 - 8 million and Hendriks more. I felt given the circumstances Bloom did well to two talented players for a month of Mitch and I think he did very well in the Pillar deal and Whitlock was a really good selection in the Rule 5 draft. If the Sox don't bring back JBJ, then Bloom erred in not trading him. I'm very curious to see what happens next month and see what Bloom does to add to the supporting cast. I'm hoping for two of Kluber, Sugano ,or Happ. And I'd like Kela and a closer (I'd go for Soria if Hand is too expensive). I'm more interested in what Bloom will do to add to the core with Devers, Bogaerts, E-Rod, and Verdugo representing the next serious contending Red Sox team of the future, who are under the age of 30. That's what Bloom is truly here for. That will take more time. It's like Tom Petty said, "The waiting is the hardest part". Might have chased a couple free agents around but the waiting is the hardest part. I love tom petty, sorry had to make this post, please don't hammer me too much for the bad pun.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Dec 24, 2020 16:21:00 GMT -5
I thought Whitlock was going to be the swingman for this team? Now they have two? Not sure about this signing, but probably goes to the meh category. Stinks to lose the catching depth. Having more than one swingman/bulk inning reliever is a good thing either in case a starter get knocked out in first couple of innings on back-to-back days or in case of injury. These multi inning relievers goes back to the 1970s and 1980s. I like seeing relievers go more than one inning as it saves the bullpen.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Dec 24, 2020 16:48:40 GMT -5
Andriese is not mediocre. I wish. Dude is 1.1 bWAR in 183 career games. But better! He was 1.1 bWAR for the 2016 *season* — 2017-2020 he is -0.3. Last season’s ERA+ of 100 was his first triple-digit ERA+ ever.
I am not saying this is a minus, because it doesn’t rise to that level. It is simply a nothingburger. But let’s not act like Chaim is playing 4D chess with signings like this. Basically, he filled another jersey.
Furthermore, let’s say for the sake of argument Andriese surprises and, I don’t know, hits 1+ WAR. If the Sox suck, I won’t congratulate Bloom for a clever find. I’ll wonder why they are nipping at the edges of a team that is far worse than it was two years ago.... and, by the way, with JBJ unsigned is actually marginally worse now than they were last year!
I’ll be on the Bloom train when he actually does something to make the team better — not just treading water.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 24, 2020 17:00:00 GMT -5
Andriese is not mediocre. I wish. Dude is 1.1 bWAR in 183 career games. But better! He was 1.1 bWAR for the 2016 *season* — 2017-2020 he is -0.3. Last season’s ERA+ of 100 was his first triple-digit ERA+ ever. I am not saying this is a minus, because it doesn’t rise to that level. It is simply a nothingburger. But let’s not act like Chaim is playing 4D chess with signings like this. Basically, he filled another jersey. Furthermore, let’s say for the sake of argument Andriese surprises and, I don’t know, hits 1+ WAR. If the Sox suck, I won’t congratulate Bloom for a clever find. I’ll wonder why they are nipping at the edges of a team that is far worse than it was two years ago.... and, by the way, with JBJ unsigned is actually marginally worse now than they were last year! I’ll be on the Bloom train when he actually does something to make the team better — not just treading water. If all they do is draft Whitlock (which I like), sign Renfroe and Andriese, then sure I'll be annoyed too. I'll pick an arbitrary date in Feb 1st, but why don't we wait and see what they look like then? I'm guessing they'll have added at least one starter (hopefully 2), at least one reliever (hopefully 2 high leverage relievers including a closer) and a CF and a 2b (although one of them will likely be on the cheap). Let's wait and see what happens. Nothing interesting in baseball happens in December anymore. It's always in January into February these days.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 24, 2020 17:34:09 GMT -5
Who is acting like Bloom is playing chess? People are literally only saying it’s a solid depth swingman add with a guy who pitched well in the last month of the season. It beats the hell out of throwing Hart/Hall/Kickham/insert any pitcher from last year
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Dec 24, 2020 17:35:22 GMT -5
I personally have no desire to sign Bauer, Springer, etc. But come on man, Andriese is tough sell. I fail to see the upside in this signing. Point out the downside to a 2 million dollar signing... this won't stop them from accomplishing anything else they may want to do I agree! Andriese is a bulk guy/swingman to eat some innings and the Red Sox still have roughly $38 million that they can spend and stay under the CBT. Like usual many free agents are waiting for the top free agents to sign to set the market price and for teams loosing out to go to options 2 and 3. I believe the Red Sox signed JD in either late February or March and this is still December. The Red Sox are too valuable a franchise to turn themselves into the Pirates. I am confident Bloom will spend on good players who are controllable and have options (the Mazza/Munoz contracts are a stroke of genius if it allows them to past through waivers repeatedly without being taken). Many Red Sox fans are spoiled, but more correctly impatient. That is one thing you can say for DD....he spent BIG (money or in prospects) and he spent FAST (usually got his man before anyone else would). In that regard I am glad Bloom is not DD. I would rather be patient and get a player who is controlable, and who can grow into a solid mlb player than over pay for one who will gone shortly and leave the farm system bare (I am not saying Andriese is one). I am thankful for DD’s 3 years and WS, but IMO Bloom is building a sustainable team, and I am patient for a fifth WS. Twenty of the 30 franchises have never won four WS in their entire existence and the RS have four in 16 years. My first 33 years as a RS fan there were 0 WS. I trust the ownership group and am patient to see the direction they are going. The RS will look different April 1 than they do now as there is still three months to fill holes.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Dec 24, 2020 17:48:57 GMT -5
Grullon's bat (lot's of power, lots of strikeouts) is not good enough to make up for the glove which is nowhere near ready. He's also seriously overweight and would be useless anywhere else on the field. We should be able to easily do better for an emergency taxi catcher but likely no so in terms of prospect status but no major loss here. [ Watching Grullon play brought back too many bad memories of Pedro Sandoval...., but seriously it did not look like his defense was very good. I read on one of the websites in winter ball he was 0/8 in throwing out stolen base attempts, and he had a .216 batting average with 0 BB and 11 strikeouts in 38 AB. Obviously there were some things the front office did not like.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 24, 2020 17:53:54 GMT -5
Looking quickly, of Fangraphs' top 50 free agents, 8 have signed, and two of those accepted qualifying offers and never really hit the market.
Using Kiley McDaniel's list at ESPN, it's 9 of his top 50 and just 13 of his 112-player list.
This isn't a Chaim Bloom sitting around while other teams sign guys problem. It's the market. If you want to complain about the market being slow, then yeah, that's reasonable-ish at least. But this isn't about guys just getting scooped up while Bloom sits on his hands.
Dombrowski used to go out and pay a premium to try to lock up his targets early. The benefit would be that he got his man. The problem is that he'd be outbidding himself, essentially for the benefit of... getting the player signed two months sooner maybe? This is why Eovaldi is on the contract he's on, why Sale is on the extension he's on, why some of the trades might've involved one player too many. (I don't include Price because the reason his deal was significantly higher was to convince him to come to Boston, where he really wasn't interested in signing).
I'm not necessarily defending Bloom. My point is that it's not rational to knock him for being part of a slow market. If you're blase on the Andriese signing, I get it - it's kind of a whatever move that can only be evaluated after seeing what else they're going to do (i.e., if he's being signed to be the fifth starter, that's bad. If he's being signed to be the 13th pitcher, then hey, that's some good depth). But the whining about why isn't Bloom signing anyone is getting really old.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 24, 2020 17:58:18 GMT -5
Grullon's bat (lot's of power, lots of strikeouts) is not good enough to make up for the glove which is nowhere near ready. He's also seriously overweight and would be useless anywhere else on the field. We should be able to easily do better for an emergency taxi catcher but likely no so in terms of prospect status but no major loss here. [ Watching Grullon play brought back too many bad memories of Pedro Sandoval...., but seriously it did not look like his defense was very good. I read on one of the websites in winter ball he was 0/8 in throwing out stolen base attempts, and he had a .216 batting average with 0 BB and 11 strikeouts in 38 AB. Obviously there were some things the front office did not like. Lol. I'm gonna guess "one of the websites" was quoting my tweet. But seriously, thinking more on it, it does seem like the Red Sox had seen enough to have soured on him. Agreed with those who've said it already - having sat on it, I'm willing to defer to their evaluation if they thought he was beyond fixing behind the plate.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Dec 24, 2020 18:32:07 GMT -5
Looking quickly, of Fangraphs' top 50 free agents, 8 have signed, and two of those accepted qualifying offers and never really hit the market. Using Kiley McDaniel's list at ESPN, it's 9 of his top 50 and just 13 of his 112-player list. This isn't a Chaim Bloom sitting around while other teams sign guys problem. It's the market. If you want to complain about the market being slow, then yeah, that's reasonable-ish at least. But this isn't about guys just getting scooped up while Bloom sits on his hands. Dombrowski used to go out and pay a premium to try to lock up his targets early. The benefit would be that he got his man. The problem is that he'd be outbidding himself, essentially for the benefit of... getting the player signed two months sooner maybe? This is why Eovaldi is on the contract he's on, why Sale is on the extension he's on, why some of the trades might've involved one player too many. (I don't include Price because the reason his deal was significantly higher was to convince him to come to Boston, where he really wasn't interested in signing). I'm not necessarily defending Bloom. My point is that it's not rational to knock him for being part of a slow market. If you're blase on the Andriese signing, I get it - it's kind of a whatever move that can only be evaluated after seeing what else they're going to do (i.e., if he's being signed to be the fifth starter, that's bad. If he's being signed to be the 13th pitcher, then hey, that's some good depth). But the whining about why isn't Bloom signing anyone is getting really old. I’m not whining about Bloom not signing anyone. I am on record as saying I’d rather endure another bad year than commit big to this crop of FAs. So I actually will congratulate him on his restraint. My only issue is with people who look at nothing moves like Andriese or slightly less nothing moves like Renfroe and act like Bloom has just demonstrated that he is the Napoleon of MLB. Thus far — and I say this not as a criticism but as an observation — he has not done much of anything to improve the team. He’s been sailing into the wind, so I’m not down on him yet. But the adulation he sometimes seems to get in posts is wishful thinking. If he fields a good team, I’ll like him. The last three GMs got rings. We’ll see with him. This not to mention the head scratcher first pick last year. Sure, let’s wait. But let’s not assume that was a stroke of genius that flew over everyone else’s heads. It might work out. If it doesn’t, then it will be what it looked like at the time... a bad pick.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Dec 24, 2020 18:37:57 GMT -5
Haha! Yeah man, you're right. I'm not sure why I'm not pumped losing a 25 year old catcher to clear a spot for a 31 year old, below average reliever for one year at $1.85MM ($2.1MM AAV). Hell yeah, I'll take Brewer, Walden, Mazza, etc. and keep Grullon any day of the week and put the cash towards something the Sox don't already have. I mean, how many average players do you want on this team? The pitching starved Angels non-tendered this guy for a reason. You’re complaining about them adding pitching depth after a season where they pitched Matt Hall. He’s got a much better track record than any of the guys you mentioned. This team needs pitching. The cost is nothing. They clearly don’t value Grullon a whole lot, and neither did a team with a weaker farm system than the Sox. Cry more about nothing, you can’t If he gives them 40-50 average innings as a swing man that has a lot of value! You would think somebody would understand that after watching this past season. Not to mention it doesn’t prevent them from doing a damn thing, it’s literally just throwing an arm that has 460 innings of pretty average baseball save for his immediate stretch in Arizona into the mix And again he’s got good spin data and seemingly made some adjustments at the end of the season. It’s another arm to look at. I literally don’t know why people are in here complaining. Must be a miserable life to lead. Just complaining for the sake of being able to hear yourself complain Unless you think them spending that money prohibits them from doing anything...which would mean I won’t take you seriously for the rest of time For the record I’m not even saying he will be good- it’s just dumb to complain about. It stops them from doing nothing and if he’s not one of their best swingman options then he won’t be on the team. Pretty simple. They’re paying depth guys 400k to waive them. They’re spending money along the margins of the roster to make sure they won’t be embarrassing at the major league level, which we have seen a lot of lately. You talk about “how many average guys do I want?” Well if they’re replacing all the shitty guys we had then I’ll take as many as we need and then 5 extra. You can never have enough pitching Omg, you said everything I have been saying to the mlbtraderumors site members (most of them do not get it or anything else). The average IQ of the members at Soxprospects.com has to be 100 points higher lol.
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Post by soxaddict on Dec 24, 2020 18:48:12 GMT -5
Looking quickly, of Fangraphs' top 50 free agents, 8 have signed, and two of those accepted qualifying offers and never really hit the market. Using Kiley McDaniel's list at ESPN, it's 9 of his top 50 and just 13 of his 112-player list. This isn't a Chaim Bloom sitting around while other teams sign guys problem. It's the market. If you want to complain about the market being slow, then yeah, that's reasonable-ish at least. But this isn't about guys just getting scooped up while Bloom sits on his hands. Dombrowski used to go out and pay a premium to try to lock up his targets early. The benefit would be that he got his man. The problem is that he'd be outbidding himself, essentially for the benefit of... getting the player signed two months sooner maybe? This is why Eovaldi is on the contract he's on, why Sale is on the extension he's on, why some of the trades might've involved one player too many. (I don't include Price because the reason his deal was significantly higher was to convince him to come to Boston, where he really wasn't interested in signing). I'm not necessarily defending Bloom. My point is that it's not rational to knock him for being part of a slow market. If you're blase on the Andriese signing, I get it - it's kind of a whatever move that can only be evaluated after seeing what else they're going to do (i.e., if he's being signed to be the fifth starter, that's bad. If he's being signed to be the 13th pitcher, then hey, that's some good depth). But the whining about why isn't Bloom signing anyone is getting really old. Whining, complaining, etc. All I have said is the money could have been better spent. Here is a list of relievers that have signed major league deals per mlbtraderumors.com. Andriese is one of the higher paid on the list, but is statistically towards the bottom. Trevor May RP Mets 2 $15.5MM $7.75MM Greg Holland RP Royals 1 $2.75MM $2.75MM Tommy Kahnle RP Dodgers 2 Unknown Matt Andriese RP Red Sox 1 $2.1MM $21MM Club Josh Tomlin RP Braves 1 $1.25MM $1.25MM Club John Brebbia RP Giants 1 $800K $800K Jonathan Holder RP Cubs 1 $750K $750K Keynan Middleton RP Mariners 1 Unknown Jimmy Herget RP Rangers 1 $700K $700K Kendall Graveman RP Mariners 1 $1.25MM $1.25MM Matt Wisler RP Giants 1 $1.15MM $1.15MM Sam Clay RP Nationals 1 $570K $570K Alex Claudio RP Angels 1 $1.125MM $1.13MM
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Dec 24, 2020 18:54:48 GMT -5
Andriese is not mediocre. I wish. Dude is 1.1 bWAR in 183 career games. But better! He was 1.1 bWAR for the 2016 *season* — 2017-2020 he is -0.3. Last season’s ERA+ of 100 was his first triple-digit ERA+ ever. I am not saying this is a minus, because it doesn’t rise to that level. It is simply a nothingburger. But let’s not act like Chaim is playing 4D chess with signings like this. Basically, he filled another jersey. Furthermore, let’s say for the sake of argument Andriese surprises and, I don’t know, hits 1+ WAR. If the Sox suck, I won’t congratulate Bloom for a clever find. I’ll wonder why they are nipping at the edges of a team that is far worse than it was two years ago.... and, by the way, with JBJ unsigned is actually marginally worse now than they were last year! I’ll be on the Bloom train when he actually does something to make the team better — not just treading water. He was worth a good portion of 1.0 WAR last September, when he was the second best pitcher in baseball in terms of results. Your need to see the downside and ignore the actual rationale and hence see the upside is almost disturbing.
With one exception, the only players signed so far are lower-tier players who apparently had their own individual markets, among the minority of teams that saw their upside. The one exception, Trevor May as the first set-up reliever off the market, was money spent by a team newly flush with cash and hoping to outbid everyone, and it was at the least valuable position.
Seriously, dude. We get a GM+ from the organization that got Randy Arozarena for next to nothing, he signs a guy who was meh or below his whole career but who pitched like an elite setup man in September, and you know the GM+ has a horde of guys crunching numbers we can't even conceive of to try to determine whether the breakout was real, and this is your reaction? It's just filling a jersey?
Or are you not bothering to read what anyone else has to say? That's worse, I think.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Dec 24, 2020 19:37:15 GMT -5
[ Watching Grullon play brought back too many bad memories of Pedro Sandoval...., but seriously it did not look like his defense was very good. I read on one of the websites in winter ball he was 0/8 in throwing out stolen base attempts, and he had a .216 batting average with 0 BB and 11 strikeouts in 38 AB. Obviously there were some things the front office did not like. Lol. I'm gonna guess "one of the websites" was quoting my tweet. But seriously, thinking more on it, it does seem like the Red Sox had seen enough to have soured on him. Agreed with those who've said it already - having sat on it, I'm willing to defer to their evaluation if they thought he was beyond fixing behind the plate. Yes, it was Chris. I have been to many Red Sox websites over the years and this one is by far the best, IMO!! Thank you for an informative and enjoyable site!
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Dec 24, 2020 19:47:36 GMT -5
Andriese is not mediocre. I wish. Dude is 1.1 bWAR in 183 career games. But better! He was 1.1 bWAR for the 2016 *season* — 2017-2020 he is -0.3. Last season’s ERA+ of 100 was his first triple-digit ERA+ ever. I am not saying this is a minus, because it doesn’t rise to that level. It is simply a nothingburger. But let’s not act like Chaim is playing 4D chess with signings like this. Basically, he filled another jersey. Furthermore, let’s say for the sake of argument Andriese surprises and, I don’t know, hits 1+ WAR. If the Sox suck, I won’t congratulate Bloom for a clever find. I’ll wonder why they are nipping at the edges of a team that is far worse than it was two years ago.... and, by the way, with JBJ unsigned is actually marginally worse now than they were last year! I’ll be on the Bloom train when he actually does something to make the team better — not just treading water. He was worth a good portion of 1.0 WAR last September, when he was the second best pitcher in baseball in terms of results. Your need to see the downside and ignore the actual rationale and hence see the upside is almost disturbing.
With one exception, the only players signed so far are lower-tier players who apparently had their own individual markets, among the minority of teams that saw their upside. The one exception, Trevor May as the first set-up reliever off the market, was money spent by a team newly flush with cash and hoping to outbid everyone, and it was at the least valuable position.
Seriously, dude. We get a GM+ from the organization that got Randy Arozarena for next to nothing, he signs a guy who was meh or below his whole career but who pitched like an elite setup man in September, and you know the GM+ has a horde of guys crunching numbers we can't even conceive of to try to determine whether the breakout was real, and this is your reaction? It's just filling a jersey?
Or are you not bothering to read what anyone else has to say? That's worse, I think.
I’m reading it, but you are saying a 31-year-old had a great September in a freakish season, but has been not so good since he was 25 otherwise... and thus this is a stroke of genius. That is giving a LOT of credit. If everyone who ever had a great month got paid for it, there’d be some really rich busts out there. It seems like you tend to look at brief performance boosts as signs of some huge adjustment, when more often they are the flukes that are built into baseball. He faced 40 batters in September/October. 8 appearances, of which he was unscored upon in 6. Through last season you were inundating us with numbers about all the scraps in the bullpen. Where are the Stocks, Springs, Coveys, and Godleys now? Again... I’m not attacking Bloom. He signed a filler. Needs to be done. I just think there is a Bloom worship that appears to lead people to think these moves are strokes of genius — the real Andriese was the September one! — when they are meh.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Dec 24, 2020 20:00:32 GMT -5
He was worth a good portion of 1.0 WAR last September, when he was the second best pitcher in baseball in terms of results. Your need to see the downside and ignore the actual rationale and hence see the upside is almost disturbing.
With one exception, the only players signed so far are lower-tier players who apparently had their own individual markets, among the minority of teams that saw their upside. The one exception, Trevor May as the first set-up reliever off the market, was money spent by a team newly flush with cash and hoping to outbid everyone, and it was at the least valuable position.
Seriously, dude. We get a GM+ from the organization that got Randy Arozarena for next to nothing, he signs a guy who was meh or below his whole career but who pitched like an elite setup man in September, and you know the GM+ has a horde of guys crunching numbers we can't even conceive of to try to determine whether the breakout was real, and this is your reaction? It's just filling a jersey?
Or are you not bothering to read what anyone else has to say? That's worse, I think.
I’m reading it, but you are saying a 31-year-old had a great September in a freakish season, but has been not so good since he was 25 otherwise... and thus this is a stroke of genius. That is giving a LOT of credit. If everyone who ever had a great month got paid for it, there’d be some really rich busts out there. It seems like you tend to look at brief performance boosts as signs of some huge adjustment, when more often they are the flukes that are built into baseball. He faced 40 batters in September/October. 8 appearances, of which he was unscored upon in 6. Through last season you were inundating us with numbers about all the scraps in the bullpen. Where are the Stocks, Springs, Coveys, and Godleys now? Again... I’m not attacking Bloom. He signed a filler. Needs to be done. I just think there is a Bloom worship that appears to lead people to think these moves are strokes of genius — the real Andriese was the September one! — when they are meh. I just spent the 2 hours reading posts from three strings while walking 6 miles, and what I see is not giving undue credit, but defending attacks from impatient fans. The market has not moved yet...it is not that Bloom has been inactive. IT IS THAT THE MARKET HAS NOT MOVED. It will not move until the dominoes start to fall (teams primary targets signing elsewhere)...until teams start having to move to 2nd then 3rd contingency plans. The complaining get tiresome, but it is 10 times worse on other sites.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Dec 24, 2020 20:09:35 GMT -5
I’m reading it, but you are saying a 31-year-old had a great September in a freakish season, but has been not so good since he was 25 otherwise... and thus this is a stroke of genius. That is giving a LOT of credit. If everyone who ever had a great month got paid for it, there’d be some really rich busts out there. It seems like you tend to look at brief performance boosts as signs of some huge adjustment, when more often they are the flukes that are built into baseball. He faced 40 batters in September/October. 8 appearances, of which he was unscored upon in 6. Through last season you were inundating us with numbers about all the scraps in the bullpen. Where are the Stocks, Springs, Coveys, and Godleys now? Again... I’m not attacking Bloom. He signed a filler. Needs to be done. I just think there is a Bloom worship that appears to lead people to think these moves are strokes of genius — the real Andriese was the September one! — when they are meh. I just spent the 2 hours reading posts from three strings while walking 6 miles, and what I see is not giving undue credit, but defending attacks from impatient fans. The market has not moved yet...it is not that Bloom has been inactive. IT IS THAT THE MARKET HAS NOT MOVED. It will not move until the dominoes start to fall (teams primary targets signing elsewhere)...until teams start having to move to 2nd then 3rd contingency plans. The complaining get tiresome, but it is 10 times worse on other sites. I’m not complaining about Bloom. He hasn’t done much, which is fine all things considered.... even preferable. I am complaining about the Bloom worship that seems to see in minor moves some hidden brilliance. So dar in his tenure, he’s a cipher. Last year his hands were tied. This off season, it’s early and options are limited. All fine. But pretending the moves he has made are a sign of wizardry is silly. He might be a genius. But he still might be a drooling idiot. There is no evidence to dispel either scenario.
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Post by dcb26 on Dec 24, 2020 20:31:15 GMT -5
I am complaining about the Bloom worship that seems to see in minor moves some hidden brilliance. Is there a single post in this thread where someone is saying this? I agree, claiming that this signing is a true stroke of genius is really stretching things - so I checked, and as far as I can tell, nobody is doing that.
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Post by scottysmalls on Dec 24, 2020 20:34:37 GMT -5
I just spent the 2 hours reading posts from three strings while walking 6 miles, and what I see is not giving undue credit, but defending attacks from impatient fans. The market has not moved yet...it is not that Bloom has been inactive. IT IS THAT THE MARKET HAS NOT MOVED. It will not move until the dominoes start to fall (teams primary targets signing elsewhere)...until teams start having to move to 2nd then 3rd contingency plans. The complaining get tiresome, but it is 10 times worse on other sites. I’m not complaining about Bloom. He hasn’t done much, which is fine all things considered.... even preferable. I am complaining about the Bloom worship that seems to see in minor moves some hidden brilliance. So dar in his tenure, he’s a cipher. Last year his hands were tied. This off season, it’s early and options are limited. All fine. But pretending the moves he has made are a sign of wizardry is silly. He might be a genius. But he still might be a drooling idiot. There is no evidence to dispel either scenario. Well there's his entire career history before the Red Sox. He oversaw player development at the team arguably most successful at that. He consistently demonstrated an ability to identify and develop quality pitchers and was one of the earliest users of strategies like openers and going extremely heavy on shifts. If we want to pretend that his history started when he signed with the Red Sox then sure, although I'd contend a drooling idiot would have already screwed things up much more than he has.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Dec 24, 2020 21:37:53 GMT -5
I am complaining about the Bloom worship that seems to see in minor moves some hidden brilliance. Is there a single post in this thread where someone is saying this? I agree, claiming that this signing is a true stroke of genius is really stretching things - so I checked, and as far as I can tell, nobody is doing that. Not a single person is doing that and it’s that “complaining for the sake of hearing yourself complain” thing I alluded go earlier. But I mean Bloom added a quality depth piece so let’s get the torches out and start criticizing people for ball-washing this move when they’re doing nothing of the sort. I just don’t understand it a season after we pitched Kyle Hart but whatever at this point
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 24, 2020 21:48:37 GMT -5
Andriese is about a league average pitcher who can start if need be and pitch out of the pen if need be. Compared to some of the guys they threw out there last year ill gladly take average from a pitcher to be honest.
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Post by soxaddict on Dec 24, 2020 22:13:03 GMT -5
I just spent the 2 hours reading posts from three strings while walking 6 miles, and what I see is not giving undue credit, but defending attacks from impatient fans. The market has not moved yet...it is not that Bloom has been inactive. IT IS THAT THE MARKET HAS NOT MOVED. It will not move until the dominoes start to fall (teams primary targets signing elsewhere)...until teams start having to move to 2nd then 3rd contingency plans. The complaining get tiresome, but it is 10 times worse on other sites. I’m not complaining about Bloom. He hasn’t done much, which is fine all things considered.... even preferable. I am complaining about the Bloom worship that seems to see in minor moves some hidden brilliance. So dar in his tenure, he’s a cipher. Last year his hands were tied. This off season, it’s early and options are limited. All fine. But pretending the moves he has made are a sign of wizardry is silly. He might be a genius. But he still might be a drooling idiot. There is no evidence to dispel either scenario. Is it wrong to debate signings or trades? I have only stated that I thought the Sox overpaid for Andriese. I actually made this comment about two signings on the 21st. The replies were. Brebbia, 30. 3 yrs, 175 IP, ERA+ 132, FIP 3.39, WAR 2.4, one year $800K(1st year of Arb, three years of control). Claudio, 29. 7 yrs, 311 IP, ERA+ 135, FIP 3.70, WAR 6.1, one year $1.125MMAndriese, 31. 6 yrs, 460 IP, ERA+ 91, FIP 4.23, WAR 1.2 one year $1.85MM ($250K Buy Out) $2.1MM Both Brebbia and Claudio will make a combined $1.925MM, while Andriese will make $2.1MM. So, I stand by my comments. The Sox overpaid and could have done better, IMO. That's all I have to say. It's in the past now, lets move on.
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