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Post by incandenza on Apr 4, 2022 16:41:09 GMT -5
On the completely different question of whether they had a good offseason, I'd call it decent but not great, assuming no further moves. (I see that you've phrased the issue, though, in such a way as to exclude their big headlining addition, who is an infielder.)
But what we were discussing was whether it was the case that the Red Sox' main rivals improved more than the Red Sox did. I don't think that is the case.
Well, I’m not playing games, but I’m also not writing books. Story is a big addition. But I thought their OF was a weakness *last* year, so that off season failure is glaring. We can agree to disagree on the rest. I think the Jays and Yanks are better. There you go. 🤷♂️ Setting the previous discussion aside... I'd be crossing my fingers pretty hard if I were a Yankee fan. In a vacuum I think that Donalson trade was pretty smart, but if he goes down to injury - or Judge, Stanton, or Cole - they're in a tough spot. He made them more, rather than less, vulnerable in that sense. They just seem quite top-heavy and it's not hard to imagine scenarios where they start dipping into replacement level guys pretty quick. And it's not like they haven't been killed by injuries in recent years...
One thing about the Story addition for the Red Sox is that they could lose Bogaerts or Devers for a while and be able to absorb it. Likewise with their bullpen depth. The outfield maybe not so much.
ADD: Speaking of the Yankees I just came across a pretty crazy stat from Joe Posnanski in his AL East preview:
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 4, 2022 18:07:13 GMT -5
I saw the Fellowship of the Ring at Chunky's in Pelham with my friend and our moms. I most likely ordered the Pacino Parmesan with waffle fries because of course I did. Anyway, my buddy's mom was (somehow) unaware that the Lord of the Rings was a trilogy and the movie wouldn't really have an ending. As a result, she kind of hated the movie - she came in expecting a complete movie and didn't get one.
That's how I feel about this offseason. Bloom is clearly comfortable with the roster not being fully dead set on April 7. Maybe part of that was the lockout, but who knows? The 40-man is in a really weird place and as the offseason ends, I don't get the feeling I just watched a full movie with an ending, but rather an episode in a longer story, one in which we're not getting a satisfying ending right now. I hate that as a fan, but have to acknowledge it CAN work, if done right.
Anyway, I don't love the rotation, I don't love JBJ as the full-time starting RF, and the bullpen is a bit of a mess. That said, I'm fine with the net of Story and JBJ on, Renfroe and Schwarber off, especially if it nets two more top-30 prospects in the process. For grading purposes, I'd really like to know if ERod was just dead-set on leaving and didn't really give them an opportunity to match, because that's probably a full letter grade difference to me.
I'll go with a C for now. Would trend C- if we got pluses and minuses. I'm not satisfied, but get the payoff might require more patience.
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Post by jaffinator on Apr 4, 2022 18:14:47 GMT -5
Small quibble, but I don't know that the letter grades match the "definitions" next to them. Like it seems like it's trying to suggest that a "C" is treading water so to speak, such that A is big improvement, B is small improvement, C is steady, D is small loss, F is big loss, but the actual definition of B sort of muddies that?
Anyways, C. There's clearly a lot of low-downsides risks on the roster, especially when it comes to SP. If more than one of them pay off, that C might look silly but for now that's where we are.
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Post by iakovos11 on Apr 4, 2022 19:06:23 GMT -5
I saw the Fellowship of the Ring at Chunky's in Pelham with my friend and our moms. I most likely ordered the Pacino Parmesan with waffle fries because of course I did. Anyway, my buddy's mom was (somehow) unaware that the Lord of the Rings was a trilogy and the movie wouldn't really have an ending. As a result, she kind of hated the movie - she came in expecting a complete movie and didn't get one. That's how I feel about this offseason. Bloom is clearly comfortable with the roster not being fully dead set on April 7. Maybe part of that was the lockout, but who knows? The 40-man is in a really weird place and as the offseason ends, I don't get the feeling I just watched a full movie with an ending, but rather an episode in a longer story, one in which we're not getting a satisfying ending right now. I hate that as a fan, but have to acknowledge it CAN work, if done right. Anyway, I don't love the rotation, I don't love JBJ as the full-time starting RF, and the bullpen is a bit of a mess. That said, I'm fine with the net of Story and JBJ on, Renfroe and Schwarber off, especially if it nets two more top-30 prospects in the process. For grading purposes, I'd really like to know if ERod was just dead-set on leaving and didn't really give them an opportunity to match, because that's probably a full letter grade difference to me. I'll go with a C for now. Would trend C- if we got pluses and minuses. I'm not satisfied, but get the payoff might require more patience. I have the same feeling/question about ERod. The vibe (to me) just seems to be that he was dead set on leaving for some reason. Would love get some info on that sometime.
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Post by awalkinthepark on Apr 4, 2022 20:30:08 GMT -5
I saw the Fellowship of the Ring at Chunky's in Pelham with my friend and our moms. I most likely ordered the Pacino Parmesan with waffle fries because of course I did. Anyway, my buddy's mom was (somehow) unaware that the Lord of the Rings was a trilogy and the movie wouldn't really have an ending. As a result, she kind of hated the movie - she came in expecting a complete movie and didn't get one. That's how I feel about this offseason. Bloom is clearly comfortable with the roster not being fully dead set on April 7. Maybe part of that was the lockout, but who knows? The 40-man is in a really weird place and as the offseason ends, I don't get the feeling I just watched a full movie with an ending, but rather an episode in a longer story, one in which we're not getting a satisfying ending right now. I hate that as a fan, but have to acknowledge it CAN work, if done right. Anyway, I don't love the rotation, I don't love JBJ as the full-time starting RF, and the bullpen is a bit of a mess. That said, I'm fine with the net of Story and JBJ on, Renfroe and Schwarber off, especially if it nets two more top-30 prospects in the process. For grading purposes, I'd really like to know if ERod was just dead-set on leaving and didn't really give them an opportunity to match, because that's probably a full letter grade difference to me. I'll go with a C for now. Would trend C- if we got pluses and minuses. I'm not satisfied, but get the payoff might require more patience. I have the same feeling/question about ERod. The vibe (to me) just seems to be that he was dead set on leaving for some reason. Would love get some info on that sometime. I wonder if it had anything to do with the poor infield D. He got burned pretty bad the last few years. The highest BABIP in baseball last year among pitchers with at least 150 IP and the third largest difference between xBA and actual BA.
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 5, 2022 4:57:17 GMT -5
I give the offseason a B still.
Just some thoughts on ERod. I agree that based on how it all went down he wanted to leave and the IF D could have had something to do with it. And I know this will be an unpopular opinion but how can we not look at Rich Hill as an upgrade over ERod? Don't just look at FIP, look at runs and hits allowed. Based on last season Hill is an upgrade for this season as crazy as that sounds. It might not be totally true but statistically he has been a better pitcher not just last yr but the entirety of ERods career. Perception and reality don't always align and this is a good case of that. I know the injury thing is a factor but ERod has pitched over 150 innings only twice. This is me saying the rotation is going to be fine.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 5, 2022 7:01:23 GMT -5
I have the same feeling/question about ERod. The vibe (to me) just seems to be that he was dead set on leaving for some reason. Would love get some info on that sometime. Considering how fast E-Rod signed elsewhere, I would say that he was dead set on leaving! The media environment, the fans, the weather, or maybe the infield defense may have aided E-Rod’s decision to leave, but the end result was E-Rod leaving asap once he got the chance. IMO Bloom should not be graded down for E-Rod leaving, but for how Bloom replaced ERod. An objective was also to improve the defense and JBJ is an upgrade over Renfroe as well as Story at 2nd. Most fans would have liked to see more pitching added (me as well), but with the addition of Whitlock and Paxton to the rotation at some point as well as Sale, IMO the pitching will be better than last year. That is why I think a B- is appropriate. Yes, ERod was dead set on leaving, but it's also possible he had tried to get an extension with the Red Sox during the season and was either rebuffed or low balled and then during the exclusive negotiating window, he could have been lowballed again and could have said, "The hell with these guys. I'm not shooting for the moon but they won't even meet me halfway. I'm going with the first acceptable team that gives me a reasonable offer." It'll be interesting when it finally comes out what happened with ERod and negotiations. I suspect ERod will have a good year on an emerging Tigers team and I suspect that the Sox won't get much out of the money they spent in 2022 to replace ERod as they deal with severe age/performance risk with Hill, a guy who hasn't had a successful season in 5 years, and a guy who is injured and might not provide much in 2022 in Paxton. We'll see what happens.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 5, 2022 9:10:36 GMT -5
I'm happy with the off season and I'd rate it as a B+ relative to my expectations.
If we get a year #4 starter combined from Hill, Wacha and Paxton, I'll be more than happy with that part.
If we had signed Schwarber and traded JDM for prospects, I'd have given it an A+. I expect Kyle to outperform JDM significantly (although, JDM is still good).
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Post by Guidas on Apr 5, 2022 9:34:26 GMT -5
UPDATED: Looks like they've been talking, and Xander is clear he is willing to consider through the season so hope for him. This, however, seems less than encouraging about Devers: However, major league sources suggested that the door hasn’t been closed to more discussions between Devers and the team prior to the season. Still, those sources acknowledged, the size of the gap is such that the likelihood of a deal before the season kicks off Thursday in New York is remote.The longer this goes on, the more history shows us that players want a market-value deal and are not keen on home-town discounts. There are exceptions but in Boston they seem to be rare (Bogaerts, Varitek - both Boras clients, btw, and now Xander is rethinking that strategy). However, if they can't get a deal done soon, I don't know what incentive beyond "I'd like to stay in Boston" Devers would have to sign a team-friendly extension after, say, the All-Star break. And Bloom does not seem to be the kind of guy who would offer full market value, which has likely been adjusted upward over, say, last year given the new luxury tax threshold. And you can bet Raffy's agent will be urging his most valuable client to go to the open market if not now, then once this year is done for sure (and prob after spring training officially ends). Smart politics to "keep talking" but this is the business side of the business. Why should Raffy take less than top dollar? www.bostonglobe.com/2022/04/04/sports/how-long-can-red-sox-keep-rafael-devers-xander-bogaerts-together-left-side/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2022 9:51:41 GMT -5
Considering how fast E-Rod signed elsewhere, I would say that he was dead set on leaving! The media environment, the fans, the weather, or maybe the infield defense may have aided E-Rod’s decision to leave, but the end result was E-Rod leaving asap once he got the chance. IMO Bloom should not be graded down for E-Rod leaving, but for how Bloom replaced ERod. An objective was also to improve the defense and JBJ is an upgrade over Renfroe as well as Story at 2nd. Most fans would have liked to see more pitching added (me as well), but with the addition of Whitlock and Paxton to the rotation at some point as well as Sale, IMO the pitching will be better than last year. That is why I think a B- is appropriate. Yes, ERod was dead set on leaving, but it's also possible he had tried to get an extension with the Red Sox during the season and was either rebuffed or low balled and then during the exclusive negotiating window, he could have been lowballed again and could have said, "The hell with these guys. I'm not shooting for the moon but they won't even meet me halfway. I'm going with the first acceptable team that gives me a reasonable offer." It'll be interesting when it finally comes out what happened with ERod and negotiations. I suspect ERod will have a good year on an emerging Tigers team and I suspect that the Sox won't get much out of the money they spent in 2022 to replace ERod as they deal with severe age/performance risk with Hill, a guy who hasn't had a successful season in 5 years, and a guy who is injured and might not provide much in 2022 in Paxton. We'll see what happens. IMO fan disappointment with the rotation has more to do with Sale being injured. Sale, Eovaldi, Pivetta, and Houck would have been a pretty good front 4. With Hill and Wacha competing for the 5th starting spot on one year contracts, it leaves open a spot for the recovered James Paxton or Whitlock to start next year. Bloom obviously wants rotation spots available for the soon to be graduating Crawford, Bello, Whitlock and whoever is the first non high priced FA since E-Rod, Buchholz, and Lester. I would much rather see young prospects with 7 years of controllability at league minimum who are starting into their prime years than another Sale re-signing complete with injuries and declining years immediately ahead.
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zoot
Rookie
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Post by zoot on Apr 5, 2022 10:11:48 GMT -5
UPDATED: Looks like they've been talking, and Xander is clear he is willing to consider through the season so hope for him. This, however, seems less than encouraging about Devers: However, major league sources suggested that the door hasn’t been closed to more discussions between Devers and the team prior to the season. Still, those sources acknowledged, the size of the gap is such that the likelihood of a deal before the season kicks off Thursday in New York is remote.The longer this goes on, the more history shows us that players want a market-value deal and are not keen on home-town discounts. There are exceptions but in Boston they seem to be rare (Bogaerts, Varitek - both Boras clients, btw, and now Xander is rethinking that strategy). However, if they can't get a deal done soon, I don't know what incentive beyond "I'd like to stay in Boston" Devers would have to sign a team-friendly extension after, say, the All-Star break. And Bloom does not seem to be the kind of guy who would offer full market value, which has likely been adjusted upward over, say, last year given the new luxury tax threshold. And you can bet Raffy's agent will be urging his most valuable client to go to the open market if not now, then once this year is done for sure (and prob after spring training officially ends). Smart politics to "keep talking" but this is the business side of the business. Why should Raffy take less than top dollar? www.bostonglobe.com/2022/04/04/sports/how-long-can-red-sox-keep-rafael-devers-xander-bogaerts-together-left-side/I'm more concerned about Devers than Bogey. Bogey has been a great team-mate and a great contributor, but Boras is going to be looking for top dollar for years well past X's prime, and will hold his cards till the very end of the process. That means there will be other opportunities passed up while waiting for him to declare, and even if we get him to reup, it will cost us in term of years. It seems to me that Bloom has hedged that with the Story signing and should be a clear enough message to X that we either have to reach a deal quickly or the RS will move on. If he goes, and esp if he winds up with the NYY, that will sting but we can be prepared for that, and more rational fans will understand we can't commit to him well into his 30s. Devers is another story. In the next few years, there will be plenty of room to pay him full market price. He's always hit, he's just entering his prime and this year he seems to have arrived in better shape physically, which should translate into better defense. What are we hoarding our dollars for if not to pay full mrket for a home grown standout? We'll never know what's actually going on, because Bloom clearly runs a very tight ship, and its possible Devers will go Mookie's path, but indications so far are that he's open to discussion. There's no next Devers in the system, and the optics of seeing both him and Bogey walk are terrible - there's no rational explanation for that with a big market team.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2022 10:12:18 GMT -5
“Why should Raffy take less than top dollar?” The common line players use is, “….for the security of my family….”. If those bs lines were true then those players would sign an extension as in this case Devers has 2 season before FA and career ending injuries do occasionally happen all be it not often, but they do happen. If a player truly wants to stay somewhere then he can take $250,000,000 instead of $275,000,000 as unless he is a total fool he will never live long enough to spend all the money. Most players now are simply mercenaries….playing for the highest $. I was glad to hear Story signed in Boston for less money than Colorado offered. It shows he has principles. Money is not always the number one most important reason for doing something.
Lol, southern Californians will work 7-10 years longer on average to live in a much higher cost of living area (I am a CFP and consult corporate and state employees). Everyone’s priority are different, so if a player wants to be a mercenary then fine, and I am not sorry to see them leave! For the record I really, really hope Devers stays, but if he pulls a Mookie then whatever. This is my opinion and you all are entitled to your own.
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zoot
Rookie
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Post by zoot on Apr 5, 2022 10:40:38 GMT -5
“Why should Raffy take less than top dollar?” The common line players use is, “….for the security of my family….”. If those bs lines were true then those players would sign an extension as in this case Devers has 2 season before FA and career ending injuries do occasionally happen all be it not often, but they do happen. If a player truly wants to stay somewhere then he can take $250,000,000 instead of $275,000,000 as unless he is a total fool he will never live long enough to spend all the money. Most players now are simply mercenaries….playing for the highest $. I was glad to hear Story signed in Boston for less money than Colorado offered. It shows he has principles. Money is not always the number one most important reason for doing something. Lol, southern Californians will work 7-10 years longer on average to live in a much higher cost of living area (I am a CFP and consult corporate and state employees). Everyone’s priority are different, so if a player wants to be a mercenary then fine, and I am not sorry to see them leave! For the record I really, really hope Devers stays, but if he pulls a Mookie then whatever. This is my opinion and you all are entitled to your own. I think you're ignoring ego factors. These people are relentlessly competitive in a way that few of us here are. Compensation and to a lesser extent tenure are objective, market-driven factors for weighing comparative value. Sure, they'll never remotely spend all of that money (and hopefully some of it will be allocated for charitable causes) but that's not the only thing at work. If we're offering Devers 2XXX - insert as many zeroes as you want - and the NYY are offering 3XXX, the message is we don't value him as highly. Think respect. BTW, you may not intend it but the tone of your last sentence is rather confrontational.
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Post by awalkinthepark on Apr 5, 2022 10:43:36 GMT -5
“Why should Raffy take less than top dollar?” The common line players use is, “….for the security of my family….”. If those bs lines were true then those players would sign an extension as in this case Devers has 2 season before FA and career ending injuries do occasionally happen all be it not often, but they do happen. If a player truly wants to stay somewhere then he can take $250,000,000 instead of $275,000,000 as unless he is a total fool he will never live long enough to spend all the money. Most players now are simply mercenaries….playing for the highest $. I was glad to hear Story signed in Boston for less money than Colorado offered. It shows he has principles. Money is not always the number one most important reason for doing something. Lol, southern Californians will work 7-10 years longer on average to live in a much higher cost of living area (I am a CFP and consult corporate and state employees). Everyone’s priority are different, so if a player wants to be a mercenary then fine, and I am not sorry to see them leave! For the record I really, really hope Devers stays, but if he pulls a Mookie then whatever. This is my opinion and you all are entitled to your own. There is nothing wrong with a player waiting for and accepting the best offer they can get. That doesn't make them a 'mercenary', that is them getting paid the market rate for their skills. Baseball owners do what is best for them, the players should do the same. And if another team values Devers more than the Red Sox do, the way the Dodgers valued Mookie more than the Red Sox did, the why shouldn't he go play for the team that values him more?
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Post by Guidas on Apr 5, 2022 11:04:48 GMT -5
“Why should Raffy take less than top dollar?” The common line players use is, “….for the security of my family….”. If those bs lines were true then those players would sign an extension as in this case Devers has 2 season before FA and career ending injuries do occasionally happen all be it not often, but they do happen. If a player truly wants to stay somewhere then he can take $250,000,000 instead of $275,000,000 as unless he is a total fool he will never live long enough to spend all the money. Most players now are simply mercenaries….playing for the highest $. I was glad to hear Story signed in Boston for less money than Colorado offered. It shows he has principles. Money is not always the number one most important reason for doing something. Lol, southern Californians will work 7-10 years longer on average to live in a much higher cost of living area (I am a CFP and consult corporate and state employees). Everyone’s priority are different, so if a player wants to be a mercenary then fine, and I am not sorry to see them leave! For the record I really, really hope Devers stays, but if he pulls a Mookie then whatever. This is my opinion and you all are entitled to your own. I think you're ignoring ego factors. These people are relentlessly competitive in a way that few of us here are. Compensation and to a lesser extent tenure are objective, market-driven factors for weighing comparative value. Sure, they'll never remotely spend all of that money (and hopefully some of it will be allocated for charitable causes) but that's not the only thing at work. If we're offering Devers 2XXX - insert as many zeroes as you want - and the NYY are offering 3XXX, the message is we don't value him as highly. Think respect. BTW, you may not intend it but the tone of your last sentence is rather confrontational. I have spoken to agents and front office people over the years and all have said that the majority of players measure themselves against others by how much they make. Or, more clearly, in 2004 when a reporter asked Pedro Martinez how much he was looking to make in free agency, he said, "One more dollar than Curt Schilling."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2022 11:11:14 GMT -5
“Why should Raffy take less than top dollar?” The common line players use is, “….for the security of my family….”. If those bs lines were true then those players would sign an extension as in this case Devers has 2 season before FA and career ending injuries do occasionally happen all be it not often, but they do happen. If a player truly wants to stay somewhere then he can take $250,000,000 instead of $275,000,000 as unless he is a total fool he will never live long enough to spend all the money. Most players now are simply mercenaries….playing for the highest $. I was glad to hear Story signed in Boston for less money than Colorado offered. It shows he has principles. Money is not always the number one most important reason for doing something. Lol, southern Californians will work 7-10 years longer on average to live in a much higher cost of living area (I am a CFP and consult corporate and state employees). Everyone’s priority are different, so if a player wants to be a mercenary then fine, and I am not sorry to see them leave! For the record I really, really hope Devers stays, but if he pulls a Mookie then whatever. This is my opinion and you all are entitled to your own. I think you're ignoring ego factors. These people are relentlessly competitive in a way that few of us here are. Compensation and to a lesser extent tenure are objective, market-driven factors for weighing comparative value. Sure, they'll never remotely spend all of that money (and hopefully some of it will be allocated for charitable causes) but that's not the only thing at work. If we're offering Devers 2XXX - insert as many zeroes as you want - and the NYY are offering 3XXX, the message is we don't value him as highly. Think respect. BTW, you may not intend it but the tone of your last sentence is rather confrontational. lol, I would NOT live or play in New York for a billion dollar contract! $1,000,000,000. I guess that means I am not an arrogant mercenary.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 5, 2022 13:07:26 GMT -5
I think you're ignoring ego factors. These people are relentlessly competitive in a way that few of us here are. Compensation and to a lesser extent tenure are objective, market-driven factors for weighing comparative value. Sure, they'll never remotely spend all of that money (and hopefully some of it will be allocated for charitable causes) but that's not the only thing at work. If we're offering Devers 2XXX - insert as many zeroes as you want - and the NYY are offering 3XXX, the message is we don't value him as highly. Think respect. BTW, you may not intend it but the tone of your last sentence is rather confrontational. I have spoken to agents and front office people over the years and all have said that the majority of players measure themselves against others by how much they make. Or, more clearly, in 2004 when a reporter asked Pedro Martinez how much he was looking to make in free agency, he said, "One more dollar than Curt Schilling." I would encourage these players to measure their salaries against those of the median American. It would do wonders for their self-esteem!
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Post by awalkinthepark on Apr 5, 2022 13:26:00 GMT -5
I have spoken to agents and front office people over the years and all have said that the majority of players measure themselves against others by how much they make. Or, more clearly, in 2004 when a reporter asked Pedro Martinez how much he was looking to make in free agency, he said, "One more dollar than Curt Schilling." I would encourage these players to measure their salaries against those of the median American. It would do wonders for their self-esteem! This is the sort of thing that is an unfair comparison. A baseball park seats what, 35K fans? When sold out, at $50/ticket that comes to $1.5 million dollars. If Pedro pitches 31 games, and he draws in more fans because he was great, that is a significant amount of money. Even if only half the seats are filled for those 31 starts, that is over $23 million dollars in tickets sales alone from the games he pitched in, to say nothing from ad revenue or merchandise. The media American does nothing to generate that sort of revenue. Nothing I do is drawing millions of dollars from hundreds of thousands of people in a given year. If people are willing to part with money they had to work for in order to watch Pedro pitch and buy his jersey, why shouldn't he get the money? Who should get it then? Star players draw in massive amounts of revenue for their teams in a given year. We are talking tens of millions of dollars, maybe even in the hundreds of millions in some exceptional cases. It is enormous. I don't see why they shouldn't get the majority of that money, considering they are the ones the fans want to see. The alternative is that it goes in the owner's pocket anyway.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 5, 2022 13:41:05 GMT -5
I would encourage these players to measure their salaries against those of the median American. It would do wonders for their self-esteem! This is the sort of thing that is an unfair comparison. A baseball park seats what, 35K fans? When sold out, at $50/ticket that comes to $1.5 million dollars. If Pedro pitches 31 games, and he draws in more fans because he was great, that is a significant amount of money. Even if only half the seats are filled for those 31 starts, that is over $23 million dollars in tickets sales alone from the games he pitched in, to say nothing from ad revenue or merchandise. The media American does nothing to generate that sort of revenue. Nothing I do is drawing millions of dollars from hundreds of thousands of people in a given year. If people are willing to part with money they had to work for in order to watch Pedro pitch and buy his jersey, why shouldn't he get the money? Who should get it then? Star players draw in massive amounts of revenue for their teams in a given year. We are talking tens of millions of dollars, maybe even in the hundreds of millions in some exceptional cases. It is enormous. I don't see why they shouldn't get the majority of that money, considering they are the ones the fans want to see. The alternative is that it goes in the owner's pocket anyway. Yes, that's why they should feel good about themselves! Star players are all phenomenally wealthy be any reasonable standard!
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Post by Guidas on Apr 5, 2022 17:37:51 GMT -5
I have spoken to agents and front office people over the years and all have said that the majority of players measure themselves against others by how much they make. Or, more clearly, in 2004 when a reporter asked Pedro Martinez how much he was looking to make in free agency, he said, "One more dollar than Curt Schilling." I would encourage these players to measure their salaries against those of the median American. It would do wonders for their self-esteem! I get your thoughts, and intellectually I agree. But every business I've been in on the profit and nonprofit side, everyone wants the right package of salary and benefits. Part of the great resignation is a (relatively) new demand: people want this on their terms or they will find someone else to provide those terms or just step back for a while (if they can afford that). At their core, humans are incentive-driven animals. It just depend on what incentives they prize most. Every once in a while, you get a ballplayer who values staying in the same place where they feel comfortable over top dollar. But that's rare. These are, by nature, hyper-competitive individuals. This doesn't mean they're any less grateful for their opportunities or what they can do for their families, their church, their favorite charities, etc. But more often than not it does mean they are not willing to settle. Settling doesn't fit into their work ethic - which has gotten them this far. For most of these guys, who will by design retire at ages when most other people are just entering their peak earning years or even younger, they want as much as they can get while they can get it. It's part of the landscape of the game. I can't say any of us would be different at ages 26-30 given the same choice.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Apr 5, 2022 18:01:04 GMT -5
Considering how fast E-Rod signed elsewhere, I would say that he was dead set on leaving! The media environment, the fans, the weather, or maybe the infield defense may have aided E-Rod’s decision to leave, but the end result was E-Rod leaving asap once he got the chance. IMO Bloom should not be graded down for E-Rod leaving, but for how Bloom replaced ERod. Yes, ERod was dead set on leaving, but it's also possible he had tried to get an extension with the Red Sox during the season and was either rebuffed or low balled and then during the exclusive negotiating window, he could have been lowballed again and could have said, "The hell with these guys. I'm not shooting for the moon but they won't even meet me halfway. I'm going with the first acceptable team that gives me a reasonable offer."I seem to recall E-Rod saying a few times during his time with the RS that he wanted to stay. My impression is that CB just didn't want make the commitment the Tigers made. When E-Rod commented after signing with Detroit that it was time for him to leave Boston, my first reaction was that he was doing the ol' "You didn't break up with me. I broke up with you." The fact that the RS apparently didn't match the modest contract he got from the Tigers supports this POV, I think. CB seemed to have no interest. Just my opinion. YMMV.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Apr 5, 2022 21:15:41 GMT -5
I have spoken to agents and front office people over the years and all have said that the majority of players measure themselves against others by how much they make. Or, more clearly, in 2004 when a reporter asked Pedro Martinez how much he was looking to make in free agency, he said, "One more dollar than Curt Schilling." I would encourage these players to measure their salaries against those of the median American. It would do wonders for their self-esteem! I think you missed the point. Why would they do that. Do you think you should be compared to a kid working part time at McDonalds.
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 6, 2022 1:21:01 GMT -5
Considering how fast E-Rod signed elsewhere, I would say that he was dead set on leaving! The media environment, the fans, the weather, or maybe the infield defense may have aided E-Rod’s decision to leave, but the end result was E-Rod leaving asap once he got the chance. IMO Bloom should not be graded down for E-Rod leaving, but for how Bloom replaced ERod. An objective was also to improve the defense and JBJ is an upgrade over Renfroe as well as Story at 2nd. Most fans would have liked to see more pitching added (me as well), but with the addition of Whitlock and Paxton to the rotation at some point as well as Sale, IMO the pitching will be better than last year. That is why I think a B- is appropriate. Yes, ERod was dead set on leaving, but it's also possible he had tried to get an extension with the Red Sox during the season and was either rebuffed or low balled and then during the exclusive negotiating window, he could have been lowballed again and could have said, "The hell with these guys. I'm not shooting for the moon but they won't even meet me halfway. I'm going with the first acceptable team that gives me a reasonable offer." It'll be interesting when it finally comes out what happened with ERod and negotiations. I suspect ERod will have a good year on an emerging Tigers team and I suspect that the Sox won't get much out of the money they spent in 2022 to replace ERod as they deal with severe age/performance risk with Hill, a guy who hasn't had a successful season in 5 years, and a guy who is injured and might not provide much in 2022 in Paxton. We'll see what happens. Hill hasn't had a successful season in 5 years? What are you smoking? Based on what? edit. My apologies, you were talking about Wacha. I guess I am just a bit protective of Hill as he has been an after thought for years and yet he always produces quality innings. I wish the Sox had kept him thru the years. He reminds me of Jamie Moyer, a guy that just kept going and producing.
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zoot
Rookie
Posts: 50
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Post by zoot on Apr 6, 2022 4:38:39 GMT -5
We don't have the same conversation about Beyoncé or Springsteen.
These people are endowed with unusual and sometimes unique talent. Part of the package is intense drive for recognition and competition with their peers. We're all aware of societal inequities, and the kid working at McDonalds may (unfairly) not have avenues for self-improvement for a whole bunch of reasons, but that's another discussion. We're not going to solve those problems by capping compensation for the Xs and Devers of this world. We're not going back to the days when Gil Hodges was scuffling for off season gigs to keep the lights on.
There are a whole lot of reasons why the RS might have maxed out on what they're willing to do with Bogaerts. The notion that he's already wealthy enough isn't one of them.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 6, 2022 8:45:44 GMT -5
Yes, ERod was dead set on leaving, but it's also possible he had tried to get an extension with the Red Sox during the season and was either rebuffed or low balled and then during the exclusive negotiating window, he could have been lowballed again and could have said, "The hell with these guys. I'm not shooting for the moon but they won't even meet me halfway. I'm going with the first acceptable team that gives me a reasonable offer." It'll be interesting when it finally comes out what happened with ERod and negotiations. I suspect ERod will have a good year on an emerging Tigers team and I suspect that the Sox won't get much out of the money they spent in 2022 to replace ERod as they deal with severe age/performance risk with Hill, a guy who hasn't had a successful season in 5 years, and a guy who is injured and might not provide much in 2022 in Paxton. We'll see what happens. Hill hasn't had a successful season in 5 years? What are you smoking? Based on what? edit. My apologies, you were talking about Wacha. I guess I am just a bit protective of Hill as he has been an after thought for years and yet he always produces quality innings. I wish the Sox had kept him thru the years. He reminds me of Jamie Moyer, a guy that just kept going and producing. No problem, VOR. I've always liked Hill. I remember that leaping grab over the bullpen wall that Mookie made to preserve Hill's shutout in - 2015 was it? Was disappointed when Oakland signed him and the Sox didn't. And to this day, I still think if the Roberts/Hill confusion didn't happen in Game 4 of the World Series, the Sox wouldn't have won Game 4 and who knows what happens after that? The Sox weren't hitting Rich Hill that day. He's been a real good pitcher, although I do worry (because that's what I do) that he might not have a lot left in the tank. The fact that the Sox see him as a #5 battling to keep his job from Whitlock and Wacha is the surefire #4 is a little strange to me as Wacha, other than having 40 nice innings because he stopped throwing one pitch, has been quite bad for the past four years or so. I suspect Hill might finally show his age, but I have trouble believing that we'll see the best Wacha since his Cardinal days. I think Wacha will kind of be this year's Garret Richards. Just hope Paxton comes back and shows his health. He kind of reminds me a little of Red Sox version of Bret Saberhagen. Good pitcher when healthy...when healthy.
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