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Story dislocated left shoulder and placed on IL
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Post by pappyman99 on Apr 7, 2024 10:16:38 GMT -5
This one was a freak injury but the parallels to the Sale mistake are alarming.
Both were signed (story even more so) with concerns already there for each for lingering or evolving arm issues. Both of these issues essentially came to fruition and both lost whole seasons to it
Both then had freak injuries. Yeah you will get labeled injury prone whether it a freak injury or not if it comes off the back of a lost season.
I think the most interesting question is what happens if Meyer is ready and Grissom proves he can hit? Story becomes bit of an albatross contract at that point because he can’t hit to be DH
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 7, 2024 10:17:08 GMT -5
How many players have ever still been the best defensive shortstop in MLB after two straight serious injuries at age 31? Probably not a lot.
As long as he is still a great defender, and there’s no reason for his glove shoulder to affect that too much, the bar he needs to clear offensively to be an MLB caliber player is pretty low. I seriously doubt his career is over and I extra seriously doubt that that was what he was secretly thinking to himself while he said aloud that he might play again this year.
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asm18
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Post by asm18 on Apr 7, 2024 10:19:42 GMT -5
[ I guess I'll put it another way: if Story came back and was productive, it would be unprecedented. I'd love to be wrong and if anyone can show me evidence otherwise, I'm all ears. And for the other comment say there aren't many guys to play in fewer than 100 games period in their thirties...that doesn't really help your argument? I would recommend clarifying your argument. If you want to say, “he may have missed too much time over the last few seasons to be depended on next year or going forwards”, I don’t think that’s crazy at all. I share some of those concerns. But that’s a completely different thing than “his career is over.”
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Post by puzzler on Apr 7, 2024 10:32:05 GMT -5
This one was a freak injury but the parallels to the Sale mistake are alarming. Both were signed (story even more so) with concerns already there for each for lingering or evolving arm issues. Both of these issues essentially came to fruition and both lost whole seasons to it Both then had freak injuries. Yeah you will get labeled injury prone whether it a freak injury or not if it comes off the back of a lost season. I think the most interesting question is what happens if Meyer is ready and Grissom proves he can hit? Story becomes bit of an albatross contract at that point because he can’t hit to be DH I don't think you worry about Mayer or Grissom until they make it a problem. I highly doubt Mayer gets even a cup of coffee until next year, at which point you're looking at 2/$50. I'm not saying I would but if Story plays a full 2025 and is pretty good. It's a moveable contract the same way Sale was.
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Post by ematz1423 on Apr 7, 2024 10:45:44 GMT -5
I wish Mayer was ready to step in now and even be an average MLBer but he's not even in the equation yet in my opinion.
If story is out most the year they really should go out and get someone to cover them this year if there is anyone available out there. Not sure there is at this point in the season so they'll probably have to make due with what they have and maybe try and poach someone off waivers in the coming weeks/months.
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Post by awalkinthepark on Apr 7, 2024 10:49:18 GMT -5
I guess I'll put it another way: if Story came back and was productive, it would be unprecedented. I'd love to be wrong and if anyone can show me evidence otherwise, I'm all ears. And for the other comment say there aren't many guys to play in fewer than 100 games period in their thirties...that doesn't really help your argument?You missed the point on this. You can re-read it and try again if you like, but so far you've made three comments in response to me without addressing my core point.
To asm18's point - Trout is a pretty good comp. He's played in 36, 119, and 82 games in the last three years. How confident would anyone be that he'll play 150 games this season? Not very. Would it be reasonable to assume that his career is essentially over? No, it would make no sense at all.
Mike Trout a. doesn't have the same injury history as Story and b. is one of the ten best position players to ever step on a baseball diamond! Are you seriously going to use Trout as an example of what you can expect from Story? If that isn't cope then I don't know what is.
Again - I would love to be wrong. I want Story to be good. But as far as I can tell there is zero precedent for a player to have an injury history like Story for 3 straight years and then still have another productive season in his thirties. You can't sit out of baseball for that long and expect guys to still be good. You can make all the excuses you want for his bat last year but the fact is your skills deteriorate when you sit out for so long, especially since your skills are already deteriorating in your thirties anyway.
So I'll ask again, provide me with even a single player who has played in <100 games 3 years in a row and came back to have a good season in his thirties. Remove the middle infielder qualification too - name any non-DH position player who has done that. Because I haven't found anyone, which means if he is out for most of this year, the Red Sox need to move on from him heading into 2025.
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Post by soxfan06 on Apr 7, 2024 10:57:12 GMT -5
Man, we could have signed Xander Bogaerts for a little bit more money and at least had a guy who would log a lot of games...instead we have this albatross of a contract for a guy who is unable to stay healthy. What a disasterclass.
Do we think he tops the 162 games played in a Red Sox uniform before 2026 or nah?
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Post by patford on Apr 7, 2024 10:57:42 GMT -5
I wish Mayer was ready to step in now and even be an average MLBer but he's not even in the equation yet in my opinion. If story is out most the year they really should go out and get someone to cover them this year if there is anyone available out there. Not sure there is at this point in the season so they'll probably have to make due with what they have and maybe try and poach someone off waivers in the coming weeks/months. Highly unlikely but within the realm of possibility. Reports from those who have seen him are his fielding is very advanced. If by chance he hits the cover off the ball at AA and then at AAA he could easily force the issue as there is a need at the position. Quite a few teams are promoting their young high end prospects.
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Post by patford on Apr 7, 2024 10:58:28 GMT -5
Man, we could have signed Xander Bogaerts for a little bit more money and at least had a guy who would log a lot of games...instead we have this albatross of a contract for a guy who is unable to stay healthy. What a disasterclass. Do we think he tops the 162 games played in a Red Sox uniform before 2026 or nah? The Red Sox need a SS not a 1B.
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Post by ematz1423 on Apr 7, 2024 11:10:56 GMT -5
I wish Mayer was ready to step in now and even be an average MLBer but he's not even in the equation yet in my opinion. If story is out most the year they really should go out and get someone to cover them this year if there is anyone available out there. Not sure there is at this point in the season so they'll probably have to make due with what they have and maybe try and poach someone off waivers in the coming weeks/months. Highly unlikely but within the realm of possibility. Reports from those who have seen him are his fielding is very advanced. If by chance he hits the cover off the ball at AA and then at AAA he could easily force the issue as there is a need at the position. Quite a few teams are promoting their young high end prospects. It probably would be a disservice to his development but perhaps there's an argument that Mayer would be a better option than anyone else they have in the org other than maybe Rafaela which rafaela at SS opens another can of worms.
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Post by bettsonmookie on Apr 7, 2024 11:12:04 GMT -5
I'm thinking Abreu/Refsnyder end up filling the void.
Rafaela becomes the everyday SS and pairs with Grissom to hold down the MIF.
O'Neill/Duran/Platoon of Abreu/Ref from left to right in the OF.
What's the point of versatility if you aren't going to use it when you need it?
Ceddanne is clearly in another class in CF, but an Abreu/Refsnyder platoon in RF feels like a better option than whatever SS stopgap options they could pursue (Romy, Hamilton, etc.).
It is also in their best interests to give Wilyer every chance to establish himself as a legit MLB player before the Roman Anthony era begins.
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Post by pappyman99 on Apr 7, 2024 11:15:06 GMT -5
To note I wasn’t implying Mayer for this season at all in my post, but he is definitely part of the equation (for now) for 2025 and beyond
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Post by trajanacc on Apr 7, 2024 11:16:53 GMT -5
This one was a freak injury but the parallels to the Sale mistake are alarming. Both were signed (story even more so) with concerns already there for each for lingering or evolving arm issues. Both of these issues essentially came to fruition and both lost whole seasons to it Both then had freak injuries. Yeah you will get labeled injury prone whether it a freak injury or not if it comes off the back of a lost season. I think the most interesting question is what happens if Meyer is ready and Grissom proves he can hit? Story becomes bit of an albatross contract at that point because he can’t hit to be DH whatever injury risk was present at the time of the signing would have been priced in to the deal. You're acting like the front office didn't even consider the possibility that these guys could get hurt. I'm sure they made a risk assessment. Sometimes you get unlucky.
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Post by bosoxnation on Apr 7, 2024 11:20:16 GMT -5
Heartbreaking news. Feel for the guy. We lost our number one SP and best defensive player in the first 10 games of the season. What's even worse is I read a few days ago Devers goes from worst defensive 3rd baseman in baseball without Story to slightly below average with him. So we just got so much worse and this is why I didn't want to pay Devers. I would of rather traded him and paid Bogaerts to play 3rd and backup SS. Dude is a joke defensively. Just another upseting day as a RS fan. I also would rather give Romy or Sogard a shot then Hamilton. Not sure why we would call up a pinch runner. Hamilton has got his chance like Bobby and proved he's a AAA player or bench player at best.
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cdj
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Posts: 14,069
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Post by cdj on Apr 7, 2024 11:31:31 GMT -5
You missed the point on this. You can re-read it and try again if you like, but so far you've made three comments in response to me without addressing my core point.
To asm18's point - Trout is a pretty good comp. He's played in 36, 119, and 82 games in the last three years. How confident would anyone be that he'll play 150 games this season? Not very. Would it be reasonable to assume that his career is essentially over? No, it would make no sense at all.
Mike Trout a. doesn't have the same injury history as Story and b. is one of the ten best position players to ever step on a baseball diamond! Are you seriously going to use Trout as an example of what you can expect from Story? If that isn't cope then I don't know what is.
Again - I would love to be wrong. I want Story to be good. But as far as I can tell there is zero precedent for a player to have an injury history like Story for 3 straight years and then still have another productive season in his thirties. You can't sit out of baseball for that long and expect guys to still be good. You can make all the excuses you want for his bat last year but the fact is your skills deteriorate when you sit out for so long, especially since your skills are already deteriorating in your thirties anyway.
So I'll ask again, provide me with even a single player who has played in <100 games 3 years in a row and came back to have a good season in his thirties. Remove the middle infielder qualification too - name any non-DH position player who has done that. Because I haven't found anyone, which means if he is out for most of this year, the Red Sox need to move on from him heading into 2025.
He’s not at all comparing Story’s talent to Trout’s talent but you know that and are being willfully ignorant.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 7, 2024 11:38:08 GMT -5
Two people on this page are regretting the big contracts the Red Sox signed (Story, Devers) and lamenting instead that we didn't beat San Diego's 11/280 deal for Bogaerts?
The albatross is always greener on the other side, I guess.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Apr 7, 2024 11:48:57 GMT -5
Two people on this page are regretting the big contracts the Red Sox signed (Story, Devers) and lamenting instead that we didn't beat San Diego's 11/280 deal for Bogaerts? The albatross is always greener on the other side, I guess. I'm pretty sure the implication was Bogaerts would have signed the Story contract WHEN Story was signed in lieu of Story. Banking on a Devers/Bogaerts left side for 5 years never felt great for me.
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Post by awalkinthepark on Apr 7, 2024 11:49:04 GMT -5
Mike Trout a. doesn't have the same injury history as Story and b. is one of the ten best position players to ever step on a baseball diamond! Are you seriously going to use Trout as an example of what you can expect from Story? If that isn't cope then I don't know what is.
Again - I would love to be wrong. I want Story to be good. But as far as I can tell there is zero precedent for a player to have an injury history like Story for 3 straight years and then still have another productive season in his thirties. You can't sit out of baseball for that long and expect guys to still be good. You can make all the excuses you want for his bat last year but the fact is your skills deteriorate when you sit out for so long, especially since your skills are already deteriorating in your thirties anyway.
So I'll ask again, provide me with even a single player who has played in <100 games 3 years in a row and came back to have a good season in his thirties. Remove the middle infielder qualification too - name any non-DH position player who has done that. Because I haven't found anyone, which means if he is out for most of this year, the Red Sox need to move on from him heading into 2025.
He’s not at all comparing Story’s talent to Trout’s talent but you know that and are being willfully ignorant. Willfully ignorant? Are you seriously saying that talent should not be taken into consideration here? If Trevor Story had a career 170 wRC+ and put up 75 WAR before the age of 30, okay fine, I will entertain the notion that he might do something that is unprecedented. But using Trout as some sort of example for what's possible is ridiculous. Even with Trout's recent injuries he has vastly outperformed Story: he has a .281/.380/.578 line since 2021, a 162 wRC+, whereas Story in that exact same timeframe has hit .239/.308/.432, a 91 wRC+. Trout played in 40 fewer games and has more than 2x the WAR of Story, all while being a year older by the way. This is just so silly.
It doesn't matter how much of a freak injury this is, it could literally be any injury at all and if it kept him off the field for a significant period of time it would likely be the end of his career. The cause of the injury is almost irrelevant at this point. It has everything to do with routinely facing major league caliber pitching, which Story has not been able to do.
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 7, 2024 11:53:08 GMT -5
You missed the point on this. You can re-read it and try again if you like, but so far you've made three comments in response to me without addressing my core point.
To asm18's point - Trout is a pretty good comp. He's played in 36, 119, and 82 games in the last three years. How confident would anyone be that he'll play 150 games this season? Not very. Would it be reasonable to assume that his career is essentially over? No, it would make no sense at all.
Mike Trout a. doesn't have the same injury history as Story and b. is one of the ten best position players to ever step on a baseball diamond! Are you seriously going to use Trout as an example of what you can expect from Story? If that isn't cope then I don't know what is.
Again - I would love to be wrong. I want Story to be good. But as far as I can tell there is zero precedent for a player to have an injury history like Story for 3 straight years and then still have another productive season in his thirties. You can't sit out of baseball for that long and expect guys to still be good. You can make all the excuses you want for his bat last year but the fact is your skills deteriorate when you sit out for so long, especially since your skills are already deteriorating in your thirties anyway.
So I'll ask again, provide me with even a single player who has played in <100 games 3 years in a row and came back to have a good season in his thirties. Remove the middle infielder qualification too - name any non-DH position player who has done that. Because I haven't found anyone, which means if he is out for most of this year, the Red Sox need to move on from him heading into 2025.
To your last question - many players during WWII. Also Ken Griffey Jr. I’m sure there are others but those were the first to come to my mind
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Apr 7, 2024 11:54:11 GMT -5
He’s not at all comparing Story’s talent to Trout’s talent but you know that and are being willfully ignorant. Willfully ignorant? Are you seriously saying that talent should not be taken into consideration here? If Trevor Story had a career 170 wRC+ and put up 75 WAR before the age of 30, okay fine, I will entertain the notion that he might do something that is unprecedented. But using Trout as some sort of example for what's possible is ridiculous. Even with Trout's recent injuries he has vastly outperformed Story: he has a .281/.380/.578 line since 2021, a 162 wRC+, whereas Story in that exact same timeframe has hit .239/.308/.432, a 91 wRC+. Trout played in 40 fewer games and has more than 2x the WAR of Story, all while being a year older by the way. This is just so silly.
It doesn't matter how much of a freak injury this is, it could literally be any injury at all and if it kept him off the field for a significant period of time it would likely be the end of his career. The cause of the injury is almost irrelevant at this point. It has everything to do with routinely facing major league caliber pitching, which Story has not been able to do.
Yeah again it’s silly if you think people are comparing Story and Trout’s talent levels, which nobody has done. They’re saying his career probably isn’t done and that you can’t find examples of it because the scope you’re suggesting they look under is incredibly narrow. It’s a “we shall see” situation, not a “he’s 100% definitely cooked” situation which you’re trying to make it
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Post by incandenza on Apr 7, 2024 11:56:10 GMT -5
Two people on this page are regretting the big contracts the Red Sox signed (Story, Devers) and lamenting instead that we didn't beat San Diego's 11/280 deal for Bogaerts? The albatross is always greener on the other side, I guess. I'm pretty sure the implication was Bogaerts would have signed the Story contract WHEN Story was signed in lieu of Story. Banking on a Devers/Bogaerts left side for 5 years never felt great for me. I think it's become clear that wasn't on the table; that Bogaerts was going to test free agency regardless.
In any event, Bogaerts on 6/140 for ages 30-35 is hardly a riskless proposition. We'll see how it plays out.
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asm18
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Post by asm18 on Apr 7, 2024 12:08:05 GMT -5
Willfully ignorant? Are you seriously saying that talent should not be taken into consideration here? If Trevor Story had a career 170 wRC+ and put up 75 WAR before the age of 30, okay fine, I will entertain the notion that he might do something that is unprecedented. But using Trout as some sort of example for what's possible is ridiculous. Even with Trout's recent injuries he has vastly outperformed Story: he has a .281/.380/.578 line since 2021, a 162 wRC+, whereas Story in that exact same timeframe has hit .239/.308/.432, a 91 wRC+. Trout played in 40 fewer games and has more than 2x the WAR of Story, all while being a year older by the way. This is just so silly.
It doesn't matter how much of a freak injury this is, it could literally be any injury at all and if it kept him off the field for a significant period of time it would likely be the end of his career. The cause of the injury is almost irrelevant at this point. It has everything to do with routinely facing major league caliber pitching, which Story has not been able to do.
Yeah again it’s silly if you think people are comparing Story and Trout’s talent levels, which nobody has done. They’re saying his career probably isn’t done and that you can’t find examples of it because the scope you’re suggesting they look under is incredibly narrow. It’s a “we shall see” situation, not a “he’s 100% definitely cooked” situation which you’re trying to make it I’ve actually changed my opinion on this thanks to awalkinthepark’s insightful and convincing arguments. I guess Trevor Story will never be able to play baseball at a meaningful level again. Should we just DFA him now to spare ourselves the trouble? Maybe frame him for murder so we get all the money back on his deal? The old ASM18 would have thought those were stupid ideas, but I’ve become enlightened.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Apr 7, 2024 12:13:52 GMT -5
Yeah again it’s silly if you think people are comparing Story and Trout’s talent levels, which nobody has done. They’re saying his career probably isn’t done and that you can’t find examples of it because the scope you’re suggesting they look under is incredibly narrow. It’s a “we shall see” situation, not a “he’s 100% definitely cooked” situation which you’re trying to make it I’ve actually changed my opinion on this thanks to awalkinthepark’s insightful and convincing arguments. I guess Trevor Story will never be able to play baseball at a meaningful level again. Should we just DFA him now to spare ourselves the trouble? Maybe frame him for murder so we get all the money back on his deal? The old ASM18 would have thought those were stupid ideas, but I’ve become enlightened. The new asm18 is thinking outside the box with that framing idea
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Post by awalkinthepark on Apr 7, 2024 12:21:19 GMT -5
Mike Trout a. doesn't have the same injury history as Story and b. is one of the ten best position players to ever step on a baseball diamond! Are you seriously going to use Trout as an example of what you can expect from Story? If that isn't cope then I don't know what is.
Again - I would love to be wrong. I want Story to be good. But as far as I can tell there is zero precedent for a player to have an injury history like Story for 3 straight years and then still have another productive season in his thirties. You can't sit out of baseball for that long and expect guys to still be good. You can make all the excuses you want for his bat last year but the fact is your skills deteriorate when you sit out for so long, especially since your skills are already deteriorating in your thirties anyway.
So I'll ask again, provide me with even a single player who has played in <100 games 3 years in a row and came back to have a good season in his thirties. Remove the middle infielder qualification too - name any non-DH position player who has done that. Because I haven't found anyone, which means if he is out for most of this year, the Red Sox need to move on from him heading into 2025.
To your last question - many players during WWII. Also Ken Griffey Jr. I’m sure there are others but those were the first to come to my mind LOL, Ken Griffey Jr. had a single 2.9 WAR season 20 years ago at age 35, the only time he put up at least .1 WAR in his last 7 seasons, and it's the only example anyone can come up with since WW2. Definitely not unprecedented though!
Anywho I'll stop, I guess this wound is just too fresh.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Apr 7, 2024 12:25:56 GMT -5
To your last question - many players during WWII. Also Ken Griffey Jr. I’m sure there are others but those were the first to come to my mind LOL, Ken Griffey Jr. had a single 2.9 WAR season 20 years ago at age 35, the only time he put up at least .1 WAR in his last 7 seasons, and it's the only example anyone can come up with since WW2. Definitely not unprecedented though!
Anywho I'll stop, I guess this wound is just too fresh.
That’s people who aren’t really trying too hard to find an example in your incredibly limited scope, and by definition him finding Griffey would in fact make it precedented lmao
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