SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
The Big Bad Mookie Betts Thread
|
Post by grandsalami on Oct 25, 2018 22:53:40 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Canseco on Oct 26, 2018 9:17:00 GMT -5
Bless his heart. There’s a reason this squad has been so good, and it isn’t just about ability. It seems there are some genuinely thoughtful, decent human beings in the clubhouse. Back up the money truck for Mookie, as he’s the type of cornerstone we want.
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,645
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 26, 2018 10:22:32 GMT -5
Mookie is an MVP of a human being as well.
|
|
|
Post by maxwellsdemon on Jan 1, 2019 22:28:34 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on Jan 4, 2019 15:36:32 GMT -5
Bless his heart. There’s a reason this squad has been so good, and it isn’t just about ability. It seems there are some genuinely thoughtful, decent human beings in the clubhouse. Back up the money truck for Mookie, as he’s the type of cornerstone we want. I agree with this in large part. Still, I wonder if the Sox value Trout over Betts. They will be free agents at the same time.
|
|
jimed14
Veteran
Posts: 25,817
Member is Online
|
Post by jimed14 on Jan 4, 2019 16:45:15 GMT -5
Bless his heart. There’s a reason this squad has been so good, and it isn’t just about ability. It seems there are some genuinely thoughtful, decent human beings in the clubhouse. Back up the money truck for Mookie, as he’s the type of cornerstone we want. I agree with this in large part. Still, I wonder if the Sox value Trout over Betts. They will be free agents at the same time. There's just no way that they'd even risk that and wind up with neither.
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on Jan 4, 2019 18:23:54 GMT -5
I agree with this in large part. Still, I wonder if the Sox value Trout over Betts. They will be free agents at the same time. There's just no way that they'd even risk that and wind up with neither. If they don’t extend him that’s excatly what they’re risking. We’ve all been talking about Mookie going to market and Sox having to wait and pay top dollar. That scenario means they are risking exactly what you suggest. In essence, your default is you’re ending up with no Mookie until you can outbid the competition for him, which is the exact same position you’re in with Trout.
|
|
jimed14
Veteran
Posts: 25,817
Member is Online
|
Post by jimed14 on Jan 5, 2019 12:03:49 GMT -5
There's just no way that they'd even risk that and wind up with neither. If they don’t extend him that’s excatly what they’re risking. We’ve all been talking about Mookie going to market and Sox having to wait and pay top dollar. That scenario means they are risking exactly what you suggest. In essence, your default is you’re ending up with no Mookie until you can outbid the competition for him, which is the exact same position you’re in with Trout. It takes two to agree. But they aren't going to not try to extend Mookie just because they'd rather have Trout.
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on Jan 5, 2019 13:04:21 GMT -5
If they don’t extend him that’s excatly what they’re risking. We’ve all been talking about Mookie going to market and Sox having to wait and pay top dollar. That scenario means they are risking exactly what you suggest. In essence, your default is you’re ending up with no Mookie until you can outbid the competition for him, which is the exact same position you’re in with Trout. It takes two to agree. But they aren't going to not try to extend Mookie just because they'd rather have Trout. I agree completely with that. Ijust wonder if there’s an AAV they have pegged for Mookie, and if it is equal or higher for Trout.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 5, 2019 16:09:24 GMT -5
Bless his heart. There’s a reason this squad has been so good, and it isn’t just about ability. It seems there are some genuinely thoughtful, decent human beings in the clubhouse. Back up the money truck for Mookie, as he’s the type of cornerstone we want. I agree with this in large part. Still, I wonder if the Sox value Trout over Betts. They will be free agents at the same time. I doubt it, but if Betts signs elsewhere that offseason, or else signals that he's not interested in returning the Boston, it seems like the Red Sox would almost have no choice but to cut Mike Trout his half-billion dollar check at that point. This might actually be the most likely scenario if Farrell or a Farrell-like substance was still managing.
|
|
jimed14
Veteran
Posts: 25,817
Member is Online
|
Post by jimed14 on Jan 5, 2019 18:07:38 GMT -5
Cafardo mentioned something without naming any sources in one of his recent articles. He said that a lot more players than usual are interested in Boston because of Cora.
As far as Trout goes, I have a hard time believing he'll be anywhere but Philly, given how he is at every single Eagles game and also lives there. You know damn well the Phillies are hoping for that and keeping a blank check in a desk drawer for him.
|
|
gerry
Veteran
Enter your message here...
Posts: 1,664
|
Post by gerry on Jan 5, 2019 19:10:02 GMT -5
Cafardo mentioned something without naming any sources in one of his recent articles. He said that a lot more players than usual are interested in Boston because of Cora. As far as Trout goes, I have a hard time believing he'll be anywhere but Philly, given how he is at every single Eagles game and also lives there. You know damn well the Phillies are hoping for that and keeping a blank check in a desk drawer for him. And they are in the process of building a team that; even without him, can compete. With him, he will be happy to come home.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 5, 2019 20:39:37 GMT -5
Cafardo mentioned something without naming any sources in one of his recent articles. He said that a lot more players than usual are interested in Boston because of Cora. As far as Trout goes, I have a hard time believing he'll be anywhere but Philly, given how he is at every single Eagles game and also lives there. You know damn well the Phillies are hoping for that and keeping a blank check in a desk drawer for him. And they are in the process of building a team that; even without him, can compete. With him, he will be happy to come home. We've already seen Harper/Trout outfield speculation for Philly. Hypothetically, the Phils payroll is such that they could handle a Harper/Trout/Betts outfield and still be under the tax. Imagine that.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Jan 5, 2019 21:39:43 GMT -5
And they are in the process of building a team that; even without him, can compete. With him, he will be happy to come home. We've already seen Harper/Trout outfield speculation for Philly. Hypothetically, the Phils payroll is such that they could handle a Harper/Trout/Betts outfield and still be under the tax. Imagine that. It would be pretty interesting seeing how they’d fill in the other 22 active roster spots. This isn’t the NBA where three top ten players and a bunch of JAGs can carry a team to the championship.
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on Jan 8, 2019 13:47:38 GMT -5
Arb figures have to be submitted soon. If they go to Arb again with Mookie I think he's absolutely gone come free agency. I've heard enough about the process to understand how much resentment it creates with players in general. I can't imagine challenging him twice on it will go over well.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 8, 2019 14:11:32 GMT -5
Arb figures have to be submitted soon. If they go to Arb again with Mookie I think he's absolutely gone come free agency. I've heard enough about the process to understand how much resentment it creates with players in general. I can't imagine challenging him twice on it will go over well. Not necessarily disagreeing because I've heard similar, but counterpoint... if it's the player's decision to go to a trial every time, can he really reasonably blame the team? And we also don't know what is being said in a given hearing. It's quite possible--probable?--that the Red Sox aren't going to go all in on pointing out how awful the reigning AL MVP is, but rather would just point out where the salary for a player of a certain ilk falls historically in a given year of arbitration. Mookie is treating this like he's a businessman. I'm inclined to hope that he's not going to take any of this personally if he's happy playing in Boston and is going to continue being paid handsomely.
|
|
gerry
Veteran
Enter your message here...
Posts: 1,664
|
Post by gerry on Jan 8, 2019 15:10:29 GMT -5
How much Mookie and his family value playing in Boston is a big unknowable. He has certainly built a great career here, enjoys adoring fans, smart and supportive coaches, owners and staff, won awards and championships, appears headed for the HOF from here, became a father here, and will end up financially taking care of his family for generations here. One would think only something egregious could make him want to leave. I doubt an arb contract would be considered egregious. So it comes down to actually wanting to end his career somewhere else, which is unknowable to us.
The other big unknowable about a young man growing up in a system with all his buds is how close he is to his homegrown peers; and now his bash brother JDM, for example. This team is particularly tight, which the players have acknowledged and dearly love. They speak of it as family. On that level alone keeping the band together is a good idea. IMO the integrity of this band may play an unknowable part in his choosing to stay with the Sox.
I remember that he was stung by the trades of his room mate the Mayor of Ding Dong City and others from his own young band of brothers. Yes, this is all part of the maturation process and a big part of baseball all the way back to travel league and high school, but it is an impactful process nonetheless. Playing ball with good friends is a happy thing. It is unknowable, but maybe keeping this band together as much as possible is not only good for contending over the next several years, but good motivation to stay with the Sox.
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,645
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 8, 2019 16:09:45 GMT -5
How much Mookie and his family value playing in Boston is a big unknowable. He has certainly built a great career here, enjoys adoring fans, smart and supportive coaches, owners and staff, won awards and championships, appears headed for the HOF from here, became a father here, and will end up financially taking care of his family for generations here. One would think only something egregious could make him want to leave. I doubt an arb contract would be considered egregious. So it comes down to actually wanting to end his career somewhere else, which is unknowable to us. The other big unknowable about a young man growing up in a system with all his buds is how close he is to his homegrown peers; and now his bash brother JDM, for example. This team is particularly tight, which the players have acknowledged and dearly love. They speak of it as family. On that level alone keeping the band together is a good idea. IMO the integrity of this band may play an unknowable part in his choosing to stay with the Sox. I remember that he was stung by the trades of his room mate the Mayor of Ding Dong City and others from his own young band of brothers. Yes, this is all part of the maturation process and a big part of baseball all the way back to travel league and high school, but it is an impactful process nonetheless. Playing ball with good friends is a happy thing. It is unknowable, but maybe keeping this band together as much as possible is not only good for contending over the next several years, but good motivation to stay with the Sox. A lot of this is unknowable, but when appears to be known is that he's waiting to see how Bryce Harper is getting paid - and I believe Trout is a free agent as well - he'll be keeping an eye on that. If the Sox don't get into that realm for a contract offer then all the above won't matter. The Sox need to seriously pay him - like a contract that will wind up around 350 - 400 million in totality, assuming he keeps playing as he has. If their offer is competitive, they have a legit chance - how much is unknowable though. If they're not in the same ballpark (like in Lester's case) then Betts is a goner. I do think the Sox will put out a huge offer, but will it be good enough? We'll see. It is unknowable at this point. The only thing that's known is if Mookie keeps being Mookie it would take one of the biggest contracts in baseball history.
|
|
|
Post by telson13 on Jan 9, 2019 1:19:53 GMT -5
How much Mookie and his family value playing in Boston is a big unknowable. He has certainly built a great career here, enjoys adoring fans, smart and supportive coaches, owners and staff, won awards and championships, appears headed for the HOF from here, became a father here, and will end up financially taking care of his family for generations here. One would think only something egregious could make him want to leave. I doubt an arb contract would be considered egregious. So it comes down to actually wanting to end his career somewhere else, which is unknowable to us. The other big unknowable about a young man growing up in a system with all his buds is how close he is to his homegrown peers; and now his bash brother JDM, for example. This team is particularly tight, which the players have acknowledged and dearly love. They speak of it as family. On that level alone keeping the band together is a good idea. IMO the integrity of this band may play an unknowable part in his choosing to stay with the Sox. I remember that he was stung by the trades of his room mate the Mayor of Ding Dong City and others from his own young band of brothers. Yes, this is all part of the maturation process and a big part of baseball all the way back to travel league and high school, but it is an impactful process nonetheless. Playing ball with good friends is a happy thing. It is unknowable, but maybe keeping this band together as much as possible is not only good for contending over the next several years, but good motivation to stay with the Sox. I mentioned this earlier in a (this?) thread, but at some point I’ve got to think that the $ just become so ludicrous that the part that really does matter is comfort/happiness/drive to be great and/or legendary. Mookie’s going to be stupefyingly rich. But there are a lot of things that money can’t buy, and at some point we’re going to learn just how much Mookie values those things over the almighty dollar. I mean, looking at it right now, he’s on track to become the Recent-days Sox equivalent of Derek Jeter...a franchise face of multiple WS winners and a universally revered player amongst the fandom. Except, he’s clearly *better* as a player than Jeter was. So he has a real chance of being a 1-team All-Time superstar. I saw that ZIPS had him around 80 career WAR; given his last three years and very real changes last year—including not relying on backspin for his power, and the ton more barreled balls—that could end up *conservative*. Mookie is looking at Brady-Williams-Larry territory should he choose to stay. And unlike all of his lifelong-Sox predecessors (with the possible exception of Pedroia, who’s not in that class), he’s probably got a good chance of being a multi-time WS winner.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 9, 2019 8:55:34 GMT -5
How much Mookie and his family value playing in Boston is a big unknowable. He has certainly built a great career here, enjoys adoring fans, smart and supportive coaches, owners and staff, won awards and championships, appears headed for the HOF from here, became a father here, and will end up financially taking care of his family for generations here. One would think only something egregious could make him want to leave. I doubt an arb contract would be considered egregious. So it comes down to actually wanting to end his career somewhere else, which is unknowable to us. The other big unknowable about a young man growing up in a system with all his buds is how close he is to his homegrown peers; and now his bash brother JDM, for example. This team is particularly tight, which the players have acknowledged and dearly love. They speak of it as family. On that level alone keeping the band together is a good idea. IMO the integrity of this band may play an unknowable part in his choosing to stay with the Sox. I remember that he was stung by the trades of his room mate the Mayor of Ding Dong City and others from his own young band of brothers. Yes, this is all part of the maturation process and a big part of baseball all the way back to travel league and high school, but it is an impactful process nonetheless. Playing ball with good friends is a happy thing. It is unknowable, but maybe keeping this band together as much as possible is not only good for contending over the next several years, but good motivation to stay with the Sox. I mentioned this earlier in a (this?) thread, but at some point I’ve got to think that the $ just become so ludicrous that the part that really does matter is comfort/happiness/drive to be great and/or legendary. Mookie’s going to be stupefyingly rich. But there are a lot of things that money can’t buy, and at some point we’re going to learn just how much Mookie values those things over the almighty dollar. I mean, looking at it right now, he’s on track to become the Recent-days Sox equivalent of Derek Jeter...a franchise face of multiple WS winners and a universally revered player amongst the fandom. Except, he’s clearly *better* as a player than Jeter was. So he has a real chance of being a 1-team All-Time superstar. I saw that ZIPS had him around 80 career WAR; given his last three years and very real changes last year—including not relying on backspin for his power, and the ton more barreled balls—that could end up *conservative*. Mookie is looking at Brady-Williams-Larry territory should he choose to stay. And unlike all of his lifelong-Sox predecessors (with the possible exception of Pedroia, who’s not in that class), he’s probably got a good chance of being a multi-time WS winner. The "he'll be rich no matter what" thing always comes up, and it's just not true. What difference in your life does a $325m dollar contract make over a $300m contract? Well first of all, people are in general incredibly irrational when it comes to money. Secondly, if we do want to try to be rational about it, the difference is $25m. That's a lot of money! It doesn't matter if all you want is a nice house and to send a couple kids to college, but what if you want an ownership stake in a team, or another business venture? What if you want to do some major charitable works? Or less optimistically, you just want more big houses and more fancy cars. Or it's just a pride and ego thing, which are extremely powerful motivators, despite their toxicity. You can want it for good reasons or bad ones, but there's almost never a situation where a person just doesn't care about tens of millions of dollars. Secondly, and I'm not going to expound on this one as much, but I just want people to consider that for Mookie Betts, this is the one time he gets to choose. Yeah he could have turned down the $800k from the Red Sox and gone to college, but that's just a chance to draw a different lotto ticket. In his entire professional baseball career, he's never been able to choose his employer, and if he re-signs with the Red Sox, he likely never will. Just think about that.
|
|
jimed14
Veteran
Posts: 25,817
Member is Online
|
Post by jimed14 on Jan 9, 2019 9:01:27 GMT -5
If he re-signs with the Red Sox, he did choose his employer, no?
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 9, 2019 9:13:45 GMT -5
If he re-signs with the Red Sox, he did choose his employer, no? I guess we could lawyer it up over the phrasing but you see what I'm getting at, right?
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,645
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 9, 2019 9:55:33 GMT -5
If he re-signs with the Red Sox, he did choose his employer, no? Let's just hope the Red Sox give him an offer he can't refuse. I agree with Fenway's point about the thought that the "normal, average" person might use the logic of it's more money than one can spend in a lifetime - which is pretty much literally true unless you're a totally wreckless idiot - but that's not the way a lot of these athletes think. They compare themselves to peers, see what the other peers make, and think to themselves - I'm better than that guy - and they want to be paid accordingly. Ego is a huge thing. And it comes from both sides. It's not like ownership thinks - ok I'm making enough of a profit, more than I could ever spend in a lifetime - time to stop trying to make more. It just doesn't work like that. Creature comfort and all of that does come into play if it's like a case of breaking ties, as in two or three very comparable offers, but that creature comfort mostly takes a back seat if there's enough of a disparity even if it's more money than I could make in many, many lifetimes of my own. The creature comfort thing is more of a fan's wish than a player's reality. They'll usually play anywhere that'll pay them more. Now, that said, you can't say that for everybody. Off the top of my head, I remember Varitek instructing Boras to get him the best deal with the Red Sox only or Wakefield wanting a renewable $4 million option with the Sox just about every year, or Lowell turning down an extra year in Philly to stay with Boston, or Pedroia doing everything in his power to be a one team for his career kind of guy, and I'm sure there are some others too, but the list of those who "love" Boston (and I think they do) but leave for greener pastures are far longer - with Joe Kelly being the latest, and I have no doubt if the Sox' offer had been right where the Dodgers offer was he would have stayed, but it wasn't, so he did the most logical thing a ballplayer would do. He left. So if the Sox are hoping for some kind of hometown discount for Mookie and I doubt they they are naïve enough to think that way in regards to Mookie, it's not going to happen. Mookie knows his place in history and wants to be paid with a status that is on a par with his place in history. If the Sox pony up the dough they have a great chance of retaining him - that's where having the culture that Alex Cora creates can be a difference maker, but if the money isn't there, then Mookie will be elsewhere in 2021, all the other creature comforts not being the deciding factor. At the end of the day a $350 million offer would blow away a $300 million offer regardless if that kind of monopoly money wouldn't make an iota of difference in the quality of one's life.
|
|
|
Post by mredsox89 on Jan 11, 2019 13:52:52 GMT -5
With Betts and the Sox avoiding arbitration at the $20M mark for the 2019, an extension to avoid the 2020 arbitration number seems to make sense. His $ for 2020 might be so crazy high that a long term extension won't even raise his AAV that much, if at all.
It's trending toward him getting more money than Machado or Harper, which three years ago, would have seemed crazy. But now, it's pretty much totally deserving. He's the type of guy you make the commitment to
|
|
mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,770
Member is Online
|
Post by mobaz on Jan 11, 2019 14:17:17 GMT -5
The one thing "Moose" has going against him is that he'll be 28 as a free agent instead of 26. AAV should be at/above Harper and Machado but maybe not total or total length. He can, perception-wise, help himself if he extends in lieu of Arbitration-3 since like you implied he's probably looking at $30M with a similar year.
|
|
|