|
Post by jimed14 on Feb 25, 2015 15:34:05 GMT -5
Yep, and an opportunity for Lee to get hurt again. Or not be good. I predict he waits on both until they're worthless. We are talking about a worst case scenario of paying Lee $37.5 million for 5 starts and then pay for his TJS. I doubt the Phillies kick in any money. The risk of course is that he gets hurt. But if you trade him now for second tier guys that's almost the same as getting nothing. You aren't getting players who will likely move your team forward. Saving money really doesn't help the Phillies any because there aren't players they can spend the savings on. If I were them, I'd wait as opposed to trading him now. Before last year, he had an excellent track record of health. ' That's what they'll do, yes. And then never trade them.
|
|
|
Post by moonstone2 on Feb 25, 2015 15:59:46 GMT -5
The risk of course is that he gets hurt. But if you trade him now for second tier guys that's almost the same as getting nothing. You aren't getting players who will likely move your team forward. Saving money really doesn't help the Phillies any because there aren't players they can spend the savings on. If I were them, I'd wait as opposed to trading him now. Before last year, he had an excellent track record of health. ' That's what they'll do, yes. And then never trade them. We can laugh all we want at Amaro but the real problem is that they have absolutely failed at drafting talent. They took some big chances on some high upside raw players like Greene and Hewitt and ended up with nothing. The last couple of years they have done pretty well. They got three solid pitching prospects for Byrd and Rollins and a nice lottery ticket for a fungible reliever. They have also added Nola, Crawford. By holding on to Lee and Hammels they are doing the right thing.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Feb 26, 2015 10:51:27 GMT -5
I'll just assume that RAJ will value Lee as an ace while ignoring the money owed and injury risk when he's being approached to make a trade. Lol I don't understand why this is funny? When has Lee not been a top of the rotation starter if healthy? People here are intrigued by him because of this. He's a Lefty control guy, these guys age well. If he's healthy everything here is true. I mean, maybe the Phillies won't have much success but that's got nothing to do with Lee
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Feb 26, 2015 11:04:39 GMT -5
I don't understand why this is funny? When has Lee not been a top of the rotation starter if healthy? People here are intrigued by him because of this. He's a Lefty control guy, these guys age well. If he's healthy everything here is true. I mean, maybe the Phillies won't have much success but that's got nothing to do with Lee If you were a Phillies fan, would you be happy to hear your GM state that Lee is a big part of the Phillies' current and future success? He's a big part of neither. You can say that he's just trying to drive the trade price up, but you also can't help wondering if he believes it.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Feb 26, 2015 11:06:07 GMT -5
I think trading these guys for volume and ridding the full salaries is the way to go. Let's just pretend sox would take both guys and their salaries bc I know their system and can use it as an example:
Oh by the wY this isn't what Boston should do it's an example of how the Phillies would be way better off doing something like this:
Lee and all his money traded for:
Jackie Bradkey, Jr. Teddy Stankiewicz Simon Mercedes
Hamels and all his money traded for:
Johnson Barnes Marrero Cecchini Sam Travis Nick Longhi
The Phillies would restock a depleted farm system with young cost controlled players with a combination of upside and high floors and free up about 45m AAV to spend next year in FA. I'd rather the money and depth than one higher level RL guy and less money.
It gives the more support for the major league team or ammunition to make trades.
If I'm amaro, I wait closer to the deadline and if I can't get something better then I go this route. Big market team can spend should free up the cash and build farm depth.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Feb 26, 2015 11:19:47 GMT -5
Yep, and an opportunity for Lee to get hurt again. Or not be good. I predict he waits on both until they're worthless. We are talking about a worst case scenario of paying Lee $37.5 million for 5 starts and then pay for his TJS. I doubt the Phillies kick in any money. The risk of course is that he gets hurt. But if you trade him now for second tier guys that's almost the same as getting nothing. You aren't getting players who will likely move your team forward. Saving money really doesn't help the Phillies any because there aren't players they can spend the savings on. If I were them, I'd wait as opposed to trading him now. Before last year, he had an excellent track record of health. I wouldn't dismiss the value of so-called second tier guys. Kiley McDaniel gives Cecchini a low-risk 50 FV, which would rank him fourth in the Phillies system, and I'd imagine Bradley would rank similarly if he still had prospect status. I think getting six+ cheap years of team control of a prospect of that caliber (one who projects to be a league averagish player) absolutely moves the Phillies forward and you're undervaluing them if you think it'd be "almost the same as getting nothing." Honestly, if the Phillies aren't kicking in any money, I'd hesitate to give up either one of those guys for Lee at this juncture of the season (though I'd probably do so if Lee looked really good in his first few starts and his medicals were clean enough), and I don't think they could do much better elsewhere. There are reports that they'd be willing to eat money to get a better prospect, though, and if they do so, they would rightfully hold out for a better package (though I still think they'd be hard-pressed to get much better of a headliner). Either way, I doubt there will be much movement until Lee throws in games, so we'll have to wait until then at the very least.
|
|
|
Cliff Lee
Feb 26, 2015 22:19:00 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by moonstone2 on Feb 26, 2015 22:19:00 GMT -5
It's doubtful they could do much better than Checchini or Bradley today, which is why they should wait for him to build his value. If he's healthy and pitches like Cliff Lee they will do better at the trade deadline.
Checchini doesn't make sense for a team with a young 3b and the Phillies have that. Bradley might be only a fourth OF which wouldn't help them either. Unless there is a mandate to cut payroll you don't trade a player of Lee's stature if you think he has a reasonable chance of recovery.
|
|
|
Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Feb 27, 2015 17:35:17 GMT -5
It's doubtful they could do much better than Checchini or Bradley today, which is why they should wait for him to build his value. If he's healthy and pitches like Cliff Lee they will do better at the trade deadline. Checchini doesn't make sense for a team with a young 3b and the Phillies have that. Bradley might be only a fourth OF which wouldn't help them either. Unless there is a mandate to cut payroll you don't trade a player of Lee's stature if you think he has a reasonable chance of recovery. Franco will move to first as soon as they remove Howard and Asche isn't anything special. Gillick and Manuel both really like Cecchini. I also feel Moncada was the nail in the coffin for Cecchini on this team long term unfortunately. I feel the same about Bradley Jr. but his Hit tool has a track record of being AA-+ in the minors and college and with his defense/arm i wouldn't give up on him just yet. He's just got to stop swinging for the fences; when he does his swing gets really long and pitchers abuse the lower inside corner.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Feb 27, 2015 20:23:34 GMT -5
Franco is a better defensive third baseman than Cecchini.
|
|
sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
|
Post by sdl on Feb 28, 2015 8:53:22 GMT -5
I do not want Cliff Lee ANYWHERE near a Red Sox uniform.
I live near the Phillies complex (a 10-15 minute drive) and I go to see friends who are Phillies fans and to get some of my own stuff signed. Lee treats fans like crap. It's one thing to not sign stuff but when Lee tells a woman in a wheelchair that he'd rather vomit than sign an autograph for her....do you want somebody to bring that attitude into the clubhouse? I sure don't.
|
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
Member is Online
|
Cliff Lee
Feb 28, 2015 11:55:44 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by nomar on Feb 28, 2015 11:55:44 GMT -5
I do not want Cliff Lee ANYWHERE near a Red Sox uniform. I live near the Phillies complex (a 10-15 minute drive) and I go to see friends who are Phillies fans and to get some of my own stuff signed. Lee treats fans like crap. It's one thing to not sign stuff but when Lee tells a woman in a wheelchair that he'd rather vomit than sign an autograph for her....do you want somebody to bring that attitude into the clubhouse? I sure don't. I'd love to see any sort of proof of that last part
|
|
|
Cliff Lee
Feb 28, 2015 16:37:14 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by larrycook on Feb 28, 2015 16:37:14 GMT -5
I think bc would only trade players off the lower end of the major league roster for someone like lee.
But I think it is a mistake to trade for lee. He is the ultimate breakdown candidate.
Bc has been pretty consistent about pitchers over 30 years old.
|
|
sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
|
Post by sdl on Feb 28, 2015 19:24:44 GMT -5
I do not want Cliff Lee ANYWHERE near a Red Sox uniform. I live near the Phillies complex (a 10-15 minute drive) and I go to see friends who are Phillies fans and to get some of my own stuff signed. Lee treats fans like crap. It's one thing to not sign stuff but when Lee tells a woman in a wheelchair that he'd rather vomit than sign an autograph for her....do you want somebody to bring that attitude into the clubhouse? I sure don't. I'd love to see any sort of proof of that last part I know at least five people who witnessed that little incident. They don't lie.
|
|
|
Cliff Lee
Feb 28, 2015 21:41:16 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by moonstone2 on Feb 28, 2015 21:41:16 GMT -5
It's doubtful they could do much better than Checchini or Bradley today, which is why they should wait for him to build his value. If he's healthy and pitches like Cliff Lee they will do better at the trade deadline. Checchini doesn't make sense for a team with a young 3b and the Phillies have that. Bradley might be only a fourth OF which wouldn't help them either. Unless there is a mandate to cut payroll you don't trade a player of Lee's stature if you think he has a reasonable chance of recovery. Franco will move to first as soon as they remove Howard and Asche isn't anything special. Gillick and Manuel both really like Cecchini. I also feel Moncada was the nail in the coffin for Cecchini on this team long term unfortunately. I feel the same about Bradley Jr. but his Hit tool has a track record of being AA-+ in the minors and college and with his defense/arm i wouldn't give up on him just yet. He's just got to stop swinging for the fences; when he does his swing gets really long and pitchers abuse the lower inside corner. [ Garrin Checchini is not a special player and not the type of prospect that would be acceptable in a trade for a perennial Cy Young candidate even after a down year. If he's really that good then why exactly did the Red Sox spend a lot of money on a veteran who plays his position? If he was really that good he'd be the starting 3b. The Phillies are under no obligation to trade Lee today so let's stop being homers and suggest that Amaro is stupid if he doesn't trade Lee for a player who isn't good enough to start for Boston. If you were a Phillies fan and Lee helped the Sox win the World Series you'd be outraged at that type of return and rightfully so.
|
|
|
Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Feb 28, 2015 23:10:44 GMT -5
I think your really over valuing Lee who is 36, owed 37.5 mil. next year(if you want it to be a one year deal), and coming off a shoulder injury while also under valuing Cecchini. Philly needs to cut ties with Lee, Hamels, Howard, and Papelbon and haven't so because of there asking prices and their lack of willingness to eat money. Asche is a 4A player and Franco is worse than Cecchini on D, who is nothing special to begin with, and is said to move to first once they move Howard. If they want to eat money I would give up Cecchini or a Bradley who doesn't have a spot on the Sox team for a while, if not I would take him on for a salary dump.
|
|
|
Cliff Lee
Mar 1, 2015 9:06:06 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by jmei on Mar 1, 2015 9:06:06 GMT -5
Lee only has a lot of trade value if the Phillies eat a significant chunk of his salary. Otherwise, even if he does stay healthy and look like the Lee of old, his current salary/buy-out means that (a) there's not much surplus value there and (b) only a handful of teams can fit him into their salary.
Now, the Phillies have shown a willingness to eat a big chunk of Howard's salary, but that's because they can't move him any other way. They ate $4m of Marlon Byrd's contract in trading him to the Reds to get a better prospect return. But, on the other hand, their unwillingness to cover more of Papelbon's contract is reportedly why trade talks with Milwaukee broke down. How much of Lee's salary are they willing to eat to get a better prospect? If ownership is willing to cover a lot of his salary to effectively buy prospects, the Red Sox are much less likely to win the bidding. But if they mostly just want to move his salary, the Red Sox become a much more likely destination.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 1, 2015 21:18:43 GMT -5
|
|
sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
|
Post by sdl on Mar 7, 2015 17:30:16 GMT -5
My friend from Philly proposes Lee for Joe Kelly straight up.
|
|
|
Post by wcsoxfan on Mar 7, 2015 23:08:24 GMT -5
My friend from Philly proposes Lee for Joe Kelly straight up. How much $$$ is he proposing the Phillies kick in to make it fair?
|
|
|
Cliff Lee
Mar 8, 2015 1:48:09 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by larrycook on Mar 8, 2015 1:48:09 GMT -5
I think the Phillies need mlb ready or near ready offense.
And even though we have an extra outfielder or two, we just do not have the offense to spare.
|
|
|
Post by ctfisher on Mar 8, 2015 8:56:14 GMT -5
I think the Phillies need mlb ready or near ready offense. And even though we have an extra outfielder or two, we just do not have the offense to spare. I don't think they care about "MLB-ready" given that they have very little chance to compete for at least the next 2-3 seasons, short of a very successful free agent shopping spree. My guess is they're mostly just looking for young talent, they don't have a whole lot of it. Also, how do we not have the offense to spare? We've been buying bats since last trade deadline, there's a pretty good argument to be made that we have 6 starting quality outfielders on this team, more if you include some of the AAA guys. I'm not so sure that helps us get Cliff Lee, because I doubt Nava or Craig are particularly appealing to Philly, and there's obviously no way we'd include Castillo or Betts. I'd cap my offer at Bradley and maybe a low minors arm with some upside if the Phils ate a significant chunk of his contract, but even then, I'd rather stand pat and try to make a move at the deadline if it seems like we need to. I'd actually like to give the current rotation a shot, I think Buchholz and Masterson are good bounce-back candidates, Porcello's coming off a breakout and is 26, Miley is solid, and Kelly has a ton of upside given his stuff. Don't think we should be in such a hurry to change things up until someone gets hurt or shows that they're not going to contribute anything of value.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 8, 2015 10:26:44 GMT -5
Sounds like Lee is hurting again. I wouldn't give up much of anything for Lee, if at all. He has a sore elbow, and it's hard to know if it's going to get any better.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Mar 8, 2015 10:44:46 GMT -5
|
|
sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
|
Post by sdl on Mar 8, 2015 14:45:29 GMT -5
Well...scratch him off the list....
|
|
|
Cliff Lee
Mar 8, 2015 23:46:48 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by larrycook on Mar 8, 2015 23:46:48 GMT -5
Very tough break for lee as well as darvish.
Can not help but wonder if the same fate is in store for tanaka???
|
|