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8/8-8/11 Red Sox @ Royals Series Thread
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 9, 2013 7:46:59 GMT -5
Lavarnway is a poor choice as a backup for Saltalamacchia, because their skills overlap too much and Saltalamacchia is simply a better player. He should be backed up by a top-notch defensive catcher. I don't think Farrell is so much "infatuated" with Saltalamacchia as much as he doesn't see a great reason to get Lavarnway into the lineup, and I can't say I blame him. Farrell played Ross a fair bit when Ross was healthy, so it's not like he's unwilling to use his backup - it's that Lavarnway just isn't bringing anything to the table.
Lavarnway was only hitting .259/.367/.388 as the starter at Pawtucket, so I'm not sure it's just playing time that's holding him back. You can't take a backup who isn't performing and say that the answer is to play him more. That's sort of the argument that got Daniel Bard laughed at in these parts during spring training. Lavarnway isn't forcing his way into more playing time.
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Post by hammerhead on Aug 9, 2013 7:57:34 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is saying that Salty shouldn't be the starting catcher, but at this point Farrell is beating him into the ground when there is a viable alternative Vs. Lefthanders on the mound.
What happens if Salty starts to breakdown from overuse? How smart will Farrell's usage pattern look then?
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Post by mainesox on Aug 9, 2013 8:02:04 GMT -5
Farrell's "infatuation" with Salty is based on the pitchers feeling comfortable with him. Apparently he has put a lot of time and work into the pitch calling and handling part of his trade, and even guys like Lackey praise his work. His hitting has become a little consistent. Last year at this time he was fading with the bat. Overall, he seems to be more comfortable and confident this year. He has more work to do on his game, but one step at a time. Lavarnway is not there yet as he is not getting the time. They are in a pennant race, and it is not the place to provide on the job training. At this point the pitcher's comfort and confident with Salty rules, whiffs and all. If Ross was healthy, he would be getting more rest, but that is off the table. You do realize that is the exact same line of excuses some people were laying out for continuing to use varitek game after game when Salty was around don't you? Maybe.. Just Maybe another catcher would have a chance to get better acclimated with pitchers if they had a chance to catch more often rather than only when the leagues best pitchers are on the mound, or someone Salty can't catch, like the knuckleballer Wright so Lavarnway has to tough it out? That comfortable line got old several years back IOW. You do realize that Salty has been one of the better catchers in the game this year don't you (7th best overall, and 8th best offensively with 350+ plate appearances)? Replacing him with someone else - especially a worse defender who doesn't hit nearly as well like Lavarnway - isn't likely to be an upgrade. Basically, if you want to upgrade on Salty this year, you'd have to have a catcher who could step in and be a top 5 overall catcher immediately.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 9, 2013 8:11:25 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is saying that Salty shouldn't be the starting catcher, but at this point Farrell is beating him into the ground when there is a viable alternative Vs. Lefthanders on the mound. What happens if Salty starts to breakdown from overuse? How smart will Farrell's usage pattern look then? I agree with the overuse. I just don't know that Lavarnway is a really viable alternative. Butler or an out-of-organization option would be a better fit on the roster behind Salty.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Aug 9, 2013 9:51:00 GMT -5
Isn't Ross going on a rehab assignment this weekend? If he is healthy, then he will hopefully be available to play by next weekend.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Aug 9, 2013 9:53:18 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is saying that Salty shouldn't be the starting catcher, but at this point Farrell is beating him into the ground when there is a viable alternative Vs. Lefthanders on the mound. What happens if Salty starts to breakdown from overuse? How smart will Farrell's usage pattern look then? I agree with the overuse. I just don't know that Lavarnway is a really viable alternative. Butler or an out-of-organization option would be a better fit on the roster behind Salty. From 1999 through 2008 Jason Varitek played 130+ games per season for 8 of 10 years, during his age 27 through 36 seasons. The two seasons he didn't he had injury issues that prevented it, or he probably would have played that many those years as well. Salty has played in 91 of the Sox's 117 games so far this season. He would need to play in 29 of the 35 remaining games to get to 130. Salty is 28. Is it really so unreasonable to expect him to catch in 130 games this season, especially since it has not been an especially hot summer? Are we saying it is no longer reasonable to expect a starting catcher to carry that workload, even in what is absolutely the physical peak of his career? Yes, he might break down -- but more likely he'd break down a couple of years from now rather than breaking down in the next couple of months.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 9, 2013 10:05:06 GMT -5
I agree with the overuse. I just don't know that Lavarnway is a really viable alternative. Butler or an out-of-organization option would be a better fit on the roster behind Salty. From 1999 through 2008 Jason Varitek played 130+ games per season for 8 of 10 years, during his age 27 through 36 seasons. The two seasons he didn't he had injury issues that prevented it, or he probably would have played that many those years as well. Salty has played in 91 of the Sox's 117 games so far this season. He would need to play in 29 of the 35 remaining games to get to 130. Salty is 28. Is it really so unreasonable to expect him to catch in 130 games this season, especially since it has not been an especially hot summer? Are we saying it is no longer reasonable to expect a starting catcher to carry that workload, even in what is absolutely the physical peak of his career? Yes, he might break down -- but more likely he'd break down a couple of years from now rather than breaking down in the next couple of months. Agree with you about the games played, but July was oppressively hot. Not sure if it broke a record in Boston, but I know it was the hottest on record in Providence and Hartford. August hasn't been bad, fortunately.
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Post by bluechip on Aug 9, 2013 11:57:55 GMT -5
I do not think 130 games is too many, overall, but during Varitek's situation was a little different. Tek was getting rested every fifth game when Wakefield was starting. Salty got a lot of games off early in the season when Ross was healthy. Since Ross got hurt, Salty has been catching pretty much everyday.
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Aug 9, 2013 12:22:56 GMT -5
To say that Lavarnway is not performing is quite unfair. Not only has his playing time been sporadic, but have people noticed the pitchers he has faced when he has actually played?
May 14 vs TB: Matt Moore June 23 vs DET: Justin Verlander July 7 vs LAA: Jered Weaver July 8 vs SEA: Felix Hernandez July 14 vs OAK: Bartolo Colon Jul 22 vs TB: Matt Moore Jul 29 vs TB: David Price Aug1 vs SEA: Felix Hernandez
Cut him some slack.
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Post by mainesox on Aug 9, 2013 13:05:03 GMT -5
To say that Lavarnway is not performing is quite unfair. Not only has his playing time been sporadic, but have people noticed the pitchers he has faced when he has actually played? May 14 vs TB: Matt Moore June 23 vs DET: Justin Verlander July 7 vs LAA: Jered Weaver July 8 vs SEA: Felix Hernandez July 14 vs OAK: Bartolo Colon Jul 22 vs TB: Matt Moore Jul 29 vs TB: David Price Aug1 vs SEA: Felix Hernandez Cut him some slack. Before being called up he was playing every day and had a .755 OPS against AAA pitching.
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Aug 9, 2013 13:54:05 GMT -5
And a .755 OPS from a backup catcher is a bad thing?
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Post by jmei on Aug 9, 2013 14:18:17 GMT -5
And a .755 OPS from a backup catcher is a bad thing? From an alleged bat-first, mediocre defensive backstop in AAA? Yeah, it kinda is.
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Post by mainesox on Aug 9, 2013 14:38:55 GMT -5
And a .755 OPS from a backup catcher is a bad thing? From an alleged bat-first, mediocre defensive backstop in AAA? Yeah, it kinda is. It's also his AAA OPS; the general expectation is that his offense would be even worse than that in the majors.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Aug 9, 2013 14:50:00 GMT -5
Lavarnway put up bigtime numbers in the past and I doubt that he forgot how to hit. He is clearly adjusting to what is being thrown at him and he is hitting .250 against that list of pitchers. What are the chances he could draw a group of pitchers like that to hit against just from random probability. What it looks like to me is they are trying to fatten up Salty for a QO so they can get him a pick because wouldn't you think the starting catcher would be in the lineup against those guys, instead of the sub? It doesn't make sense. 5 out of 8 of those guys are RH pitchers?
They should give the guy more opportunity. Rest Salty more and platoon them more appropriately.
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Post by mattpicard on Aug 9, 2013 14:59:37 GMT -5
Salty is hitting .193/.290/.261/.551 vs. LHP's this season. .585 OPS in his career. So, yeah, I get kind of upset every time I see Salty in the lineup over Lavarnway against a lefty. As for the AAA, this season has been pretty discouraging, as many expected him to bounce back after the issues he had last year that Chris explained. I was hoping for a lot better than a .755 AAA OPS, as he has three years (800 PA's) in AAA, and is moving backwards offensively since he got there. That being said, I'll take my chances with his bat anyday against a lefty, and while the defense is a concern, Salty isn't exactly a gold glover out there himself. Unfortunately, his opportune chance for some playing time went unfulfilled due to Farrell's distrust in him, and with Ross returning soon, it looks like he may not get another legitimate chance in Boston. He's been a disappointment lately, but still, I'm frustrated with them playing Salty's horrific bat against southpaws over him.
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danr
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Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Aug 9, 2013 15:31:53 GMT -5
I think Butler should be brought up with Lavarnway sent back to Pawtucket to get more playing time. Butler should be given a chance as the backup before Vasquez forces the question.
I don't think the Sox have to look outside the organization for catchers.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 9, 2013 16:25:50 GMT -5
Isn't Ross going on a rehab assignment this weekend? If he is healthy, then he will hopefully be available to play by next weekend. Personally I think Ross is a liability at this point. His last concussion came on an typical FB off the mask - certainly not incidental but a play you see almost every day. Yet he went on the DL for an extended period after that (and he was fairly useless at the plate when he came off the DL the first time he went off. The more you have these incidents, the easier they are to get with another knock to the head. And things like timing, depth vision etc seem to come back more slowly each time.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 9, 2013 16:32:47 GMT -5
Ellsbury CF, Victorino RF, Pedroia 2B, Ortiz DH, Nava LF, Napoli 1B, Drew SS, Saltalamacchia C, Holt 3B, Peavy P.
Also, from the match-ups, looks like Butler (34 PAs 400 BA/.471 OBP/.733 SLG) Gordon (26 PAs.360/.385/.440) and Escobar (19 PAs .368/.368/.789) own Peavy.
Amazed Carp is not in Sox line-up as he's had vg OBP vs. Santana (24 PAs .375 with 1 HR and 4 BB). Nava, playing first has a smaller sample 9 PAs and is .111/.111/.111
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Post by bjb406 on Aug 9, 2013 17:03:04 GMT -5
I am going to give myself a concussion slamming my head into the wall over the Brock Holt fiasco. Anyone remember when Middlebrooks and Bradley got sent down for how bad they performed in the beginning of the year? Both have an OPS in the majors higher than Brock Holt. He was also our second worst hitter on our minor league team with significant playing time when he was there (Justin Henry was worse). I wouldn't be so upset if there were a single shred of logical reasoning behind it.. Before I thought it was stupidity, but at this point I don't think that would even explain them still playing him. It can only either be stubbornness, or they just simply don't care about winning baseball games.
There's my one angry Brock Holt post for the day.
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sarasoxer
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 9, 2013 17:06:28 GMT -5
Ellsbury CF, Victorino RF, Pedroia 2B, Ortiz DH, Nava LF, Napoli 1B, Drew SS, Saltalamacchia C, Holt 3B, Peavy P. Also, from the match-ups, looks like Butler (34 PAs 400 BA/.471 OBP/.733 SLG) Gordon (26 PAs.360/.385/.440) and Escobar (19 PAs .368/.368/.789) own Peavy. Amazed Carp is not in Sox line-up as he's had vg OBP vs. Santana (24 PAs .375 with 1 HR and 4 BB). Nava, playing first has a smaller sample 9 PAs and is .111/.111/.111 Is it really true that Dr. Farrell has diagnosed Carp with Leprosy?
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Post by mgoetze on Aug 9, 2013 17:07:05 GMT -5
Also, from the match-ups, looks like Butler (34 PAs 400 BA/.471 OBP/.733 SLG) Gordon (26 PAs.360/.385/.440) and Escobar (19 PAs .368/.368/.789) own Peavy. Amazed Carp is not in Sox line-up as he's had vg OBP vs. Santana (24 PAs .375 with 1 HR and 4 BB). Nava, playing first has a smaller sample 9 PAs and is .111/.111/.111 Sorry to break it to you, but the theory that such statistics are at all meaningful has been thoroughly discredited. (See Chapter 3 of "The Book" by Tango, et al.) But if you like management by such stupid methods, I hear Joe Girardi is really into them.
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Post by godot on Aug 9, 2013 17:48:57 GMT -5
Informative chit chat about Salty and Lavarnway. At one time I was curious as to why Lavarnway was being used very sparingly. Yeah, how is he going to develop, and his power just could not have vanished. But When Ross was health, Salty wasn't used as much as now. Ross is respected defensive catcher, and pitchers respect and feel comfortable with him. Thanks to Varitek, Sallty apparently has focused on this part of the catching game, and his hitting became secondary at one point, I believe. Now pitchers do apparently feel confident with him ( according to Lackey)and he may just be focusing more on is hitting now. I am assuming the pitchers ( and maybe Farrleel) are not all that comfortable or confident with Lavarnway, just as was the case when he was backing up Varitek. Thus Salty gets the call. I would not take it as giving up on Lavarnway. Just that Salty is the better option now.
We shall see whether he does wear down and whether Ross can come back ( something I doubt). I do not know if Butler would be better as a back up now or would it be the same. I just do not know. Maybe they do. Often our decisions are imperfect but they are the best available option at the time.
All this said, watch Salty go into a horrendous slump.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 9, 2013 18:35:03 GMT -5
Also, from the match-ups, looks like Butler (34 PAs 400 BA/.471 OBP/.733 SLG) Gordon (26 PAs.360/.385/.440) and Escobar (19 PAs .368/.368/.789) own Peavy. Amazed Carp is not in Sox line-up as he's had vg OBP vs. Santana (24 PAs .375 with 1 HR and 4 BB). Nava, playing first has a smaller sample 9 PAs and is .111/.111/.111 Sorry to break it to you, but the theory that such statistics are at all meaningful has been thoroughly discredited. (See Chapter 3 of "The Book" by Tango, et al.) But if you like management by such stupid methods, I hear Joe Girardi is really into them. So you don't think certain guys after a certain amount of at bats don't own (or in the inverse aren't owned by) certain pitchers? i think there is a metric to be found that could define how many plate appearances 1 on 1 equal significance. All I know is, since I've been watching baseball, some guys consistently have more success against certain pitchers. I've also seen those pitcher be extra careful with those guys, even though that may be otherwise substandard hitters. I enjoyed "The Book," and I know the chapter on that and other small samples. But I also know the game is played by human beings and sometimes, some guys get in a pitcher's head.
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Post by mgoetze on Aug 9, 2013 18:40:38 GMT -5
Goddamnit Ridley, run faster!
It may well be that some pitchers are particularily good against certain batters or vice versa. But any two-digit sample size is not going to come close to proving it.
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Post by mgoetze on Aug 9, 2013 18:41:32 GMT -5
Touchdown!
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