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9/2-9/4 Red Sox vs. Tigers Series Thread
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Sept 3, 2013 21:41:40 GMT -5
We'll see who is right when he gets back. Either way, I'm flattered by your insightful response. Dude, if he pitches a full season, like, EVER, maybe we'll talk. Pitching like an ace for a couple months out of every six does not an ace make. He is going to be fine. They've just been extra careful with him. You're going to be glad I'm right. The Red Sox invested a lot of money in him and didn't trade him despite countless offers in the past for a very good reason. |
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Post by jmei on Sept 3, 2013 21:43:06 GMT -5
I desperately need a Koji Uehara jersey.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,833
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Post by wcp3 on Sept 3, 2013 21:53:44 GMT -5
That doesn't negate the fact that he's never pitched a full season in the majors. Ever.
Clay is a better pitcher than Lester when healthy, but that "when healthy" part is a big if. Tough to be a true ace when it's questionable if you'll even be able to take the mound.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 3, 2013 22:27:05 GMT -5
That was a great win by the Sox. Lester was excellent. I'm hoping that's the Lester we see in October. He looked like he had it all figured out in April into May, and then fell apart before reverting back to a very good pitcher again after the All-Star break. If a rest was what he needed, I hope the Sox can afford to give him another rest before October.
Meanwhile (scared to jinx him here) Koji Uehara has been totally unbelievable. This is the first time I can remember in quite a long time where if the Sox are up 1 in the 9th I actually don't feel nervous, don't feel like I'm about to get on a roller coaster - I feel calm as can be. Is this what it's like to be a Yankees fan and watch Rivera pitch year after year? Wow.
And not intending to reignite the knee-jerk debate, but there has been nothing like knowing the Sox are up entering the 9th even if only by 1 run, victory is in their grasp, and it's Koji taking the ball. I'm sure Koji could douse most fires in the 7th, but if the game is still a one run affair in the 9th I'd also want Koji around to nail down the game at the point where once the outs are recorded the lead can't be reversed. Koji can't do that if he's coming in during the 6th or 7th inning. If the Sox had two Kojis then they could do that relief ace and closer thing, but you it's impossible to have two guys on the same staff that are so automatic (Melancon maybe could have been that second guy) but my point is I'm so glad he's our closer. It's one thing to blow a 2-1 lead in the 7th, but it's quite another thing to blow a 2-1 lead in the 9th, just 3 outs from victory - I'm so glad this guy is pitching the 9th. Makes me feel very calm. I'm sure he'll get some points in the Cy Young voting. It's almost like he's our MVP this year. I think of his signing and contrast it with the Crawford deal. It's amazing how you can spend so little money but get such great value and then spend a ton of money and get practically nothing.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 3, 2013 22:32:20 GMT -5
By the way, this game puts the lie to the "Sox can't win in the playoffs without a TRUE ACE". Lester has been an utterly average pitcher this year and Scherzer has been the best in the league. But here we are. Because the best pitcher in baseball can lose 2-1 game as well as anyone, and an average starter can have a night. Lester's been an average pitcher this year the way Bernie Madoff has had average net worth over his life. He (Lester, not Madoff) had a 2.72 ERA and .207 estimated EqA allowed in his first 9 starts. (Not citing FIP or K% through laziness...) A 6.27 ERA and .304 EqA allowed in his next 11, up to the ASB. A 2.41 ERA and .229 EqA allowed in his 9 post-ASB starts (coincidentally, also 59.2 IP). He now ranks 22nd in ERA among 40 qualifying starters, indeed, as you say, utterly average ... but the 2.56 ERA he's had at start and end would rank #1, and the 6.27 he had in between would rank #40. (There may be others with similar split seasons, so we don't know whether the Good Lester is actually the best pitcher in the league. But he's certainly in the running.) |
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Sept 3, 2013 22:35:27 GMT -5
That doesn't negate the fact that he's never pitched a full season in the majors. Ever. Clay is a better pitcher than Lester when healthy, but that "when healthy" part is a big if. Tough to be a true ace when it's questionable if you'll even be able to take the mound. He would be the number 1 pitcher on like 20 of 30 ball clubs in the MLB right now. We've been spoiled a bit with guys like Clemens, Pedro, Beckett and Schilling in the past. Guys get hurt. Guys also bounce back from being hurt. We're lucky none of his injuries have been career threatening. Its not like he needs TJ or anything... and even then, guys have bounced back from that OK. |
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 3, 2013 22:49:59 GMT -5
That doesn't negate the fact that he's never pitched a full season in the majors. Ever. Clay is a better pitcher than Lester when healthy, but that "when healthy" part is a big if. Tough to be a true ace when it's questionable if you'll even be able to take the mound. We've been spoiled a bit with guys like Clemens, Pedro, Beckett and Schilling in the past. Guys get hurt. Guys also bounce back from being hurt. We're lucky none of his injuries have been career threatening. Its not like he needs TJ or anything... and even then, guys have bounced back from that OK. He'd be the #1 on exactly zero teams right now because he's not pitching right now. Yeah, pitchers get hurt. Aces don't. When they do, they're not aces anymore. Being able to stay on the field is a skill, and Clay has never shown it. Consistency is also a skill, and Clay is suspect there as well. We'd all like to be judged by our best performances while our weaknesses are ignored, but that's not how the world works. |
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 3, 2013 22:54:50 GMT -5
By the way, this game puts the lie to the "Sox can't win in the playoffs without a TRUE ACE". Lester has been an utterly average pitcher this year and Scherzer has been the best in the league. But here we are. Because the best pitcher in baseball can lose 2-1 game as well as anyone, and an average starter can have a night. Lester's been an average pitcher this year the way Bernie Madoff has had average net worth over his life. He (Lester, not Madoff) had a 2.72 ERA and .207 estimated EqA allowed in his first 9 starts. (Not citing FIP or K% through laziness...) A 6.27 ERA and .304 EqA allowed in his next 11, up to the ASB. A 2.41 ERA and .229 EqA allowed in his 9 post-ASB starts (coincidentally, also 59.2 IP). He now ranks 22nd in ERA among 40 qualifying starters, indeed, as you say, utterly average ... but the 2.56 ERA he's had at start and end would rank #1, and the 6.27 he had in between would rank #40. (There may be others with similar split seasons, so we don't know whether the Good Lester is actually the best pitcher in the league. But he's certainly in the running.) Lester's particular streakyness aside, average pitchers produce outstanding starts from time to time. Usually resulting in a massive tantrum by this board when they do it against the Red Sox. |
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Sept 3, 2013 23:14:17 GMT -5
He would be the number 1 pitcher on like 20 of 30 ball clubs in the MLB right now. We've been spoiled a bit with guys like Clemens, Pedro, Beckett and Schilling in the past. Guys get hurt. Guys also bounce back from being hurt. We're lucky none of his injuries have been career threatening. Its not like he needs TJ or anything... and even then, guys have bounced back from that OK. He'd be the #1 on exactly zero teams right now because he's not pitching right now. Yeah, pitchers get hurt. Aces don't. When they do, they're not aces anymore. Being able to stay on the field is a skill, and Clay has never shown it. Consistency is also a skill, and Clay is suspect there as well. We'd all like to be judged by our best performances while our weaknesses are ignored, but that's not how the world works. He's coming back on Tuesday. Even Pedro got injured fairly often. No need to debate this furhther really but I guess we'll see what happens. |
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Post by nationinthesouth on Sept 3, 2013 23:27:38 GMT -5
He'd be the #1 on exactly zero teams right now because he's not pitching right now. Yeah, pitchers get hurt. Aces don't. When they do, they're not aces anymore. Being able to stay on the field is a skill, and Clay has never shown it. Consistency is also a skill, and Clay is suspect there as well. We'd all like to be judged by our best performances while our weaknesses are ignored, but that's not how the world works. He's coming back on Tuesday. Even Pedro got injured fairly often. No need to debate this furhther really but I guess we'll see what happens.
Think you lost your arguement on that |
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 4, 2013 0:04:33 GMT -5
Pedro was with the Red Sox for seven years and started less than 29 games only once in that time. Clay has reached 29 starts one season, 28 in another, and 16 or less in all others. There's no comparison.
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Post by godot on Sept 4, 2013 0:05:09 GMT -5
Talk about steroids. They are going to take Koji apart one of these days and discover he is a robot. Robotics are a big thing in the Far East, you know.
Color me stupid, but why don't they bring up Bradley to relief Ells and Shane once in a while. They are the two that Farrell may wear to the bone. The kid can play defense and run, get a few hits and maybe walk some. Sure he may need more polish as a hitter but gee. I really do not understand it. Can someone explain why they do not bring him up for this month.
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Post by bigpupp on Sept 4, 2013 0:09:27 GMT -5
Talk about steroids. They are going to take Koji apart one of these days and discover he is a robot. Robotics are a big thing in the Far East, you know. Color me stupid, but why don't they bring up Bradley to relief Ells and Shane once in a while. They are the two that Farrell may wear to the bone. The kid can play defense and run, get a few hits and maybe walk some. Sure he may need more polish as a hitter but gee. I really do not understand it. Can someone explain why they do not bring him up for this month. Pawtucket is in the playoffs. He'll be up when they are finished. |
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Post by godot on Sept 4, 2013 2:29:49 GMT -5
Yeah, know they are in the playoffs and a call up will occur, but who knows how long they could last. They could use a little relief now. Oh well.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Sept 4, 2013 8:00:24 GMT -5
Talk about steroids. They are going to take Koji apart one of these days and discover he is a robot. Robotics are a big thing in the Far East, you know. Color me stupid, but why don't they bring up Bradley to relief Ells and Shane once in a while. They are the two that Farrell may wear to the bone. The kid can play defense and run, get a few hits and maybe walk some. Sure he may need more polish as a hitter but gee. I really do not understand it. Can someone explain why they do not bring him up for this month. Or why they don't pinch run Quentin berry for Nava when that is pretty much the reason they acquired him. |
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Sept 4, 2013 8:32:38 GMT -5
Pedro was with the Red Sox for seven years and started less than 29 games only once in that time. Clay has reached 29 starts one season, 28 in another, and 16 or less in all others. There's no comparison. Maybe if you throw out the window Pedro's years with the Mets, yeah. |
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Post by bluechip on Sept 4, 2013 8:47:55 GMT -5
Pedro was with the Red Sox for seven years and started less than 29 games only once in that time. Clay has reached 29 starts one season, 28 in another, and 16 or less in all others. There's no comparison. Maybe if you throw out the window Pedro's years with the Mets, yeah. His first year with the Mets was his last as an ace. Pitchers stop being aces at some point, and that was when Pedro stopped being an ace. You are comparing a guy in his late 20s, who has never managed 190 ip, to a guy who consistently pitched 190 ip until he was in his mid 30s. |
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2013 9:10:04 GMT -5
Yeah, know they are in the playoffs and a call up will occur, but who knows how long they could last. They could use a little relief now. Oh well. I agree. I'm frankly shocked that Bradley isn't up yet. His defensive replacement value in LF alone should be worth it, considering how bad Gomes/Nava/Carp are defensively. Now that Ellsbury and Victorino are banged up, they could really use him. The Tigers never really used Berry in CF (plus, he's far worse at the plate), so he's not the answer. |
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Sept 4, 2013 9:12:19 GMT -5
We'lll see who is right here about Clay these next 2 months.
I'll leave it at that.
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2013 9:32:49 GMT -5
We'lll see who is right here about Clay these next 2 months. I'll leave it at that. Dude, noone in this thread has argued that Clay Buchholz is a bad pitcher. Even if he's the second coming of Pedro in the playoffs, he's still not consistent or injury-free enough to be a dependable top-of-the-line pitcher. |
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Post by mgoetze on Sept 4, 2013 10:02:11 GMT -5
It's one thing to blow a 2-1 lead in the 7th, but it's quite another thing to blow a 2-1 lead in the 9th, just 3 outs from victory So, you promise not to whine on this board if the Red Sox lose a game 2-3 (with Uehara not entering the game at any point) after entering the 7th inning with a 2-1 lead and blowing it therein? Me, I don't see the difference at all. |
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Post by mgoetze on Sept 4, 2013 10:03:37 GMT -5
I am empathetic with the concept of bringing in the guy who's been lights-out to face the meat of the order. But that isn't the way the current world works. "Bullpen by Committee" has no more chance of being resurrected at this point than Lance has of getting his trophies back. What's the world got to do with it? Is climate change preventing Uehara from pitching in the 7th? |
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Post by ray88h66 on Sept 4, 2013 10:05:49 GMT -5
I think they should bring up Bradley and another catcher now. The big club is beat up. I don't think the minor league playoffs should matter when the club that pays the bills is fighting to stay out of a one game play in.
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Post by rangoon82 on Sept 4, 2013 11:20:37 GMT -5
Ryan Dempster vs. the #1 offense in baseball tonight. Sox are gonna need to score a bunch of runs and cross their fingers that Dempster can keep them in it through 5.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 4, 2013 13:58:14 GMT -5
Ellsbury CF, Victorino RF, Pedroia 2B, Ortiz DH, Nava LF, Napoli 1B, Drew SS, Ross C, Middlebrooks 3B + Dempster
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