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10/19 Red Sox vs. Tigers ALCS Game 6 Thread
wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Oct 20, 2013 11:37:59 GMT -5
MacPherson on twitter (I think) made the interesting point that Morales started warming at the top of the sixth, before Hunter had walked and while the game was still relatively low-leverage. The idea is that by the time Hunter walks and Cabrera singles, there's not enough time to warm Breslow and so Farrell has to go with Morales (unless he wants to lose the platoon advantage for Fielder and Martinez (much better hitting lefty) and go with Workman). The problem with this argument is that even at the beginning of the inning, Farrell knows that if Buchholz starts to struggle, he's going to need his relievers to face some of Detroit's best hitters (Fielder, Martinez, Peralta) with runners on base-- a situation where you want one of your better relievers coming in, even if it's earlier in the game. You can then have Workman/Morales face the bottom of the order in the 7th. It has the downside of maybe having to have Breslow warming in the pen unnecessarily if Buchholz gets out of the inning, but even if that happens, you probably have Breslow coming in in the 7th or 8th inning anyways. It was just a lack of creativity from Farrell-- it's the sixth inning, so I'm not going to bring in my top guys. He has to have a little more foresight there. I'm baffled by how many major league managers lack this kind of basic foresight. I mean it's a one-run game, and since you're trying to get another inning out of your starter, you know that if you do have to go to the bullpen it's going to be some massively leveraged situation. You're going to be bringing a reliever into what will almost certainly be a one-run or tie game, probably with runners on base, in the six inning, in a game where if you win you go to the world series. So yeah, sounds like a perfect time to warm up your sixth best reliever. There's a lot of manager-worship going around these days, about all the secret hidden knowledge they posses about the game that we don't know about but that must justify their terrible decisions. And then you watch the games and managers consistently fumble really basic things like this. Jim Leyland, who gets praised up and down, turned his single best reliever into a LOOGY in this series and didn't even get him into the right spots in that roll. I get that Jim Leyland has forgotten more about baseball than I'll ever know, but that doesn't change the fact that he managed his bullpen about as poorly as could be imagined in this series. I get that the job of a manager goes far beyond in-game decisions, but there's something seriously wrong in the industry when so many managers are flatly incompetent when it comes to running a game. Don't you think you're underestimating important things, like intangibles and manager intuition?
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Oct 20, 2013 11:49:04 GMT -5
Can we please get past the rhetoric that Drew needs to sit? His glove will keep him in there against any non-lefty.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Oct 20, 2013 13:12:29 GMT -5
Can we please get past the rhetoric that Drew needs to sit? His glove will keep him in there against any non-lefty. If glove alone was the reason? Drew would have sat down every game vs lefties before the team traded Iglesias. There is more to it than just his defense. This isn't the same as theGomes and Nava situation, it runs deeper IMO.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 20, 2013 14:39:14 GMT -5
Also, the importance of starting pitching in playoff baseball continues to be vastly overrated. Kershaw, Verlander and Price will all be golfing next week. But very solid starters plus a lights out pen > starting pitching with mediocre pen ... any part of any season. Well, let's not pretend that the Sox starting pitching was bad or anything. The team's biggest advantages were probably bullpen, fielding, baserunning in that order, but they were able to leverage those advantages because of Lackey's performance in Game 3 and Buchholz keeping Detroit scoreless for five last night. A bullpen advantage doesn't do you much good against a team with starting pitchers like the Tigers have if you're down 5-0 by the time you get to the bullpen.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Oct 20, 2013 15:16:37 GMT -5
What is missing as much as anything is some love for Workman which is long overdue. Did a very admirable job as a rookie SP, thrust into the BP, with -0- prior experience and has been tough as nails there in very tight situations.
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Post by templeusox on Oct 20, 2013 15:39:47 GMT -5
Xander's playoff share will be a multiple of any money he's made in the majors + his signing bonus. Good for him.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 20, 2013 16:20:51 GMT -5
Xander's playoff share will be a multiple of any money he's made in the majors + his signing bonus. Good for him. Absolutely. Fenway mentioned that he's had a hand in a lot of the team's production and that was true again last night. He's a big reason why the team is advancing. He's worth that share and more. Add: Just watched the second half of the game courtesy of MLB network. Uehara is like some sort of endless magic show. But there was an awful symmetry watching Iglesias as the last batter, given the error he made. I feel bad for the kid.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 20, 2013 18:38:49 GMT -5
I thought Farrell mishandled the LHR situation in August and September, leading to where we are now.
Britton's first 8 outings, July 20 to August 6, were brilliant (11.1 7 1 1 1 10, 488 OPS allowed against a tremendously tough group of hitters). He then had four awful ones, August 9 to August 18 (3 10 5 5 3 4, 1384 OPS allowed), climaxing in the game where he gave up the bases-loaded triple to Gardner.
And then he was simply buried. He pitched just 6 times in the last 6 weeks, only once in anything other than garbage time. And given that he was pitching once a week, he was very good, 553 OPS allowed, albeit clustered into 3 ER in 6.1 IP.
Meanwhile, his exile was accompanied at first by a fabulous run by Morales, 6 games from August 30 to September 14, 5.1 1 0 0 1 4, 170 OPS allowed. At that point, Farrell apparently decided Morales would be the playoff LOOGY. But in his last 5 games, Sept 18 to 28, he was very shaky, 4.2 6 2 2 3 4, 862 OPS allowed.
So Britton was clearly outpitching Morales the last two weeks of the season, and had outpitched him overall, but because Morales had a great 6 games just at the point where Farrell was making his mind up, he got the job. And in the meantime, Morales has been lousy for over a month now.
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Post by mainesox on Oct 20, 2013 18:51:07 GMT -5
I'm a little late to the party, but I really don't think Farrell made the wrong move bringing Morales in in that situation; Morales has been absolutely lights out vs lefties this year (1.74 FIP, 10.97 K/9, 1.69 BB/9) as well as last (2.99 FIP, 8.26 K/9, 2.22 BB/9), it just obviously didn't work out in that particular situation (possibly because Morales had only pitched, what, once all post season? But that's obviously just speculation). If Farrell made a mistake there it was leaving Morales in to face Martinez, despite Martinez's platoon splits, because Morales L/R splits are way more pronounced than Martinez's, and especially given the fact that Morales had already shown that he didn't have any control of his pitches (as he is prone to do).
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 20, 2013 18:58:15 GMT -5
I don't think he should've come n but understand it. Do not understand leaving him in though, like you pointed out.
Someone mentioned Byron Buxon vs Bogaerts for top prospect status. I think it will be interesting to see the lists after the post season. Whether someone is 1, 2, 3 or 4 really doesn't matter, but I'd like to hear sound reasoning for ranking a guy in A ball over a guy who's looked like a star in the making at the major league level in the playoffs. What's most impressive is how he's done this while basically barely playing for a month. Just another credit to him. Bogaerts was already a top 4 prospect when he was in AA/AAA so I'd have to tank his major league success has to give him a push.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 20, 2013 20:10:39 GMT -5
I'm a little late to the party, but I really don't think Farrell made the wrong move bringing Morales in in that situation; Morales has been absolutely lights out vs lefties this year (1.74 FIP, 10.97 K/9, 1.69 BB/9) as well as last (2.99 FIP, 8.26 K/9, 2.22 BB/9), it just obviously didn't work out in that particular situation (possibly because Morales had only pitched, what, once all post season? But that's obviously just speculation). If Farrell made a mistake there it was leaving Morales in to face Martinez, despite Martinez's platoon splits, because Morales L/R splits are way more pronounced than Martinez's, and especially given the fact that Morales had already shown that he didn't have any control of his pitches (as he is prone to do). I'm more or less on board with this. I maintain that the smart, best, outside-the-box approach was to warm Breslow and have him come in to face Fielder if needed. But the conventional plan should have worked: you warm your LOOGY to get out the LHB who's been awful, and your second best RH setup man, who's been good in his last few outings, to get out the RH hitters that are due up after him. So the question comes down, who should face Martinez, the switch-hitter in between? Workman had a SSS reverse split; across the majors and minors, he had an absolutely neutral one, so we'll use his overall MLB numbers. .272 / .331 / .420 at worst, Workman vs. LHB .304 / .443 / .482, Morales vs. RHB, 2013 Farrell has to know this in advance. He has to know that the difference in pitching quality swamps Victor's mild split at the plate. The plan should have been either to have Workman face Martinez no matter what Morales does with Fielder, or have him face him unless Morales absolutely dominated Fielder while pounding the zone. Given that Workman has a GDP skill, given that Morales couldn't even throw a strike to a guy who, if we could measure his slump-iness, had probably a .100 expected OBP against him, given that all things being equal Workman was the better choice to face Martinez by a mile, letting Morales face him is a contender for the stupidest and least defensible managerial move of the post-season for any team. But the thing is, Farrell has shown an ability to learn from his mistakes. Let's hope that if we see Morales in the WS, it's strictly versus LHB.
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Post by mainesox on Oct 20, 2013 21:07:38 GMT -5
...I maintain that the smart, best, outside-the-box approach was to warm Breslow and have him come in to face Fielder if needed... I agree completely with everything you said, but in regards to this, I think it could at least be argued that Morales was actually the better option in that scenario given their respective success vs lefties (over the last two years he's been both more likely to strike lefties out, and more likely to get them to hit the ball on the ground, while being nearly equal in every other regard: link) - at least if not for the fact that Morales hadn't really pitched in weeks.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Oct 21, 2013 8:25:34 GMT -5
It's such a little oddity that in the 7 World Series appearances for the Red Sox since 1918, the Cardinals have been the opponent 4 times. I mean, they've been good, but it's not like they've dominated the National League over the last 100 years ... What has been left out so far? I'm a Tim McCarver fan as a broadcaster, but with Fox carrying to 2013 series.. Expect to get more stories regarding the '67 series that featured Gibby, with Tim behind the plate that you can shake a stick at. Tim will go back in time fairly often, it's what makes him good as an announcer to compare pitchers, hitters to me, but not just players from his own teams (like the putrid Joe Morgan that finally got canned from ESPN who constantly harped about the big dead machine). I really hope that if Wainright is throwing up 0's after.. Say 3 innings, he all of a sudden does not remind him of Gibson in other words.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Oct 21, 2013 8:50:31 GMT -5
Wait, how can anyone be a fan of McCarver as a broadcaster? He's freakin' dreadful.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Oct 21, 2013 10:38:39 GMT -5
Wait, how can anyone be a fan of McCarver as a broadcaster? He's freakin' dreadful. Easy.. Compare him to just about every other announcer most TV stations throw out there recently.. Like TBS for example not named Orsillo/Eck for the PO and especially that dolt sitting at the main desk named Olberman who has been fired from every job he has ever held. McCarver does know baseball. He goes to far on opinions some times is his issue, but he does *not* throw politics into his rants (like some football announcers), doesn't constantly get sidetracked with meaningless issues having -0- to do with baseball either. Guys not working the PO I'd like to see? John Kruk.. Fox should be able to get him. The best should be able to work between networks, rather than fools. Yes.. Kruk is "funny" and jokes about the game, but he's a very knowledgeable announcer. Smoltz isn't bad either, he just keeps quiet too much. Jimmy Kaat wasn't bad a few years back, just think his age is catching up. I'd like to see old hand Dick Enberg doing games for fox. He does some Padres games and used to do MLB way back also. Ditto Dave Sims for Seattle. Fox has choices for main PBP and color. There are many teams who have outstanding announcers, as well as many who have great color announcers, like Boston with Eck and Oakland with Ray Fosse. They don't have to go with the normal cast of idiots they round up.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 21, 2013 10:51:38 GMT -5
Wait, how can anyone be a fan of McCarver as a broadcaster? He's freakin' dreadful. Easy.. Compare him to just about every other announcer most TV stations throw out there recently.. Like TBS for example not named Orsillo/Eck for the PO and especially that dolt sitting at the main desk named Olberman who has been fired from every job he has ever held. McCarver does know baseball. He goes to far on opinions some times is his issue, but he does *not* throw politics into his rants (like some football announcers), doesn't constantly get sidetracked with meaningless issues having -0- to do with baseball either. Guys not working the PO I'd like to see? John Kruk.. Fox should be able to get him. The best should be able to work between networks, rather than fools. Yes.. Kruk is "funny" and jokes about the game, but he's a very knowledgeable announcer. Smoltz isn't bad either, he just keeps quiet too much. Jimmy Kaat wasn't bad a few years back, just think his age is catching up. I'd like to see old hand Dick Enberg doing games for fox. He does some Padres games and used to do MLB way back also. Ditto Dave Sims for Seattle. Fox has choices for main PBP and color. There are many teams who have outstanding announcers, as well as many who have great color announcers, like Boston with Eck and Oakland with Ray Fosse. They don't have to go with the normal cast of idiots they round up. Orsillo really isn't that great.
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 21, 2013 11:14:33 GMT -5
McCarver really isn't that bad. He says silly things and is sometimes condescending, but he's well-prepared and can be very prescient reading players and situations (check out Game 7 of the 2001 World Series - he baseically calls Luis Gonzalez's game winning hit before it happens). In the 1980s he was one of the best. The game has changed, analysis has changed, and he's not as sharp as he was at 50, but I think McCarver gets piled on more because of his position than his skill. And that's fair to a point - they don't let the 12th best team play in the World Series, why is the commentary not someone who is excellent? Orel Hershiser or David Cone or maybe Ron Darling should be out there. But I think McCarver gets too much flak.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Oct 21, 2013 11:15:14 GMT -5
Granted. Just better than the other cast that TBS managed to round up this PO season.
As for Orsillo on another note? He's actually not that bad a PBP announcer for Boston themselves since before Ned Martin started showing his age. Martin was pretty good early on, or when he started doing TV and was really good on Radio. Martin was getting a bit.. Well don't want to use that word, let's just say advanced in age toward the end of his PBP career on TV for Boston and for some reason they kept Bob Montgomery as the color guy far to long. Monty was a decent backup catcher for years, but was never an even passable color commentator. Why the Pawsox let him hang around is a good question.
I always make the sick joke he took too many foul balls off of his head at catcher.. You know he didn't wear a helmet.. just the thin liner and a ball cap back there.
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Post by hammerhead on Oct 21, 2013 12:44:16 GMT -5
McCarver is awful and it's his delivery that makes it so. He will say something that is obviously wrong and repeat it over and over. Or some minute detail he'll overexaggerate the importance of to make it seem game impacting. If I had to hear McCarver talk about how Max Scherzer held his balls one more time , or how great Annibal Sanchez was at reading hitters I was gonna puke. Even Buck seems to get tired of his schtick. McCarver thinks he's the smartest guy in the room and he lets you know it every broadcast. I rather listen to Remy and Orsillo yammer on in a blowout than Tim McCarver in a tie.
WE NEED A WORLD SERIES THREAD YESTERDAY!!!
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 21, 2013 12:51:12 GMT -5
He does repeat stuff over and over, that's for sure. Remember how long he'd go on about Okajima's delivery? Every single game! That's kind of the McCarver paradox, though - Scherzer really is good at holding runners because he screws with his timing, Okajima really did have a funny delivery where he'd be looking away from home plate as he delivered. I appreciate that an announcer notices that and can point it out. But I don't need it pointed out 150 times over the next six innings.
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Post by jrffam05 on Oct 21, 2013 13:14:20 GMT -5
Haven't been following the discussion but I was at this game. It was magical. Great game to be at even if it wasn't the clincher. Everyone thought we lost when Morales gave up those runs, and when Victorino had 2 stikes on him everyone thought we was striking out on another breaker. Watching Breslow and Uehara pitch was amazing.
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Post by elguapo on Oct 21, 2013 13:28:50 GMT -5
McCarver thinks he's the smartest guy in the room To be fair, he's in a room with Joe Buck.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 21, 2013 13:47:11 GMT -5
He does repeat stuff over and over, that's for sure. Remember how long he'd go on about Okajima's delivery? Every single game! That's kind of the McCarver paradox, though - Scherzer really is good at holding runners because he screws with his timing, Okajima really did have a funny delivery where he'd be looking away from home plate as he delivered. I appreciate that an announcer notices that and can point it out. But I don't need it pointed out 150 times over the next six innings. Buck and McCarver do say some silly things, but it's not the quality of their analysis that makes them terrible (or at least it's not the primary thing). What's so painful about them is just how slow and awkward and wooden everything is. There's just no chemistry or rapport between them at all. As much as it annoys me when Don and Jerry are talking about last night's cab ride or whatever, at least when one of them makes the dumb joke he gets a chuckle out of the other. Buck just ignores half of what McCarver says and mostly gives the impression that he'd rather not even be there.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 21, 2013 13:53:52 GMT -5
Re: Orsillo, he's an excellent pbp guy, just not when he's on the NESN yuk-fest. Both he and Remy were great until they dumbed down the broadcast somewhere around 2007(?) or so, after a couple of organically funny moments (I think the pizza toss and Remy falling while playing air guitar were before they started trying to be funny every game). I get why NESN does this (let's face it, the die-hards are watching either way), but still annoying.
Re: starting threads, you guys are allowed to start them y'know. It's not like you're gonna get sent to the principal if you shouldn't have in some instance...
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