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10/27 Red Sox vs. Cardinals World Series Game 4 Thread
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 27, 2013 22:59:04 GMT -5
Game 5 - win with Lester and then we have two chances to win at home. Got home field back.
3 game series with 2 at Fenway. Are the odds back in our favor?
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 27, 2013 23:02:04 GMT -5
This team has so much soul. They look flat out tired out there, the Cardinals look fresher and more talented. But the Red Sox are hungry and poised. They might not win, but they will not lose easily.
What a team.
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semperfisox
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Post by semperfisox on Oct 27, 2013 23:04:24 GMT -5
Woot! Hopefully Wainwright gets shelled.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 27, 2013 23:07:18 GMT -5
Footage of Koji's save tonight: ![](http://pilateschattanooga.com/files/7813/4986/9649/indiana-jones-gun-beats-sword-o.gif)
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 27, 2013 23:11:17 GMT -5
I hope Clay Buchholz' fortitude is remembered. He had absolutely nothing. Totally nothing. He still went out there and got 12 outs and kept the Sox in the game. He might not have been bleeding from his ankle, but I hope Schilling will give him credit for this. I certainly do. That was ballsy.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 27, 2013 23:12:10 GMT -5
This team has so much soul. They look flat out tired out there, the Cardinals look fresher and more talented. But the Red Sox are hungry and poised. They might not win, but they will not lose easily. What a team. Another way of looking at it is if Breslow was his old self, we might've swept these guys. Cards are lucky its 2-2 quite frankly.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 27, 2013 23:12:59 GMT -5
Great gutsy win by the Sox. I'm glad Doubront was able to pitch 2.2 innings today and Lackey was gutsy with that one inning. Hope it doesn't affect him in Game 6. I would imagine that Jon Lester is on a 200 pitch count tomorrow. Hope he had one more excellent game left in him and I hope the Sox don't see the real Adam Wainright tomorrow.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 27, 2013 23:15:18 GMT -5
This team has so much soul. They look flat out tired out there, the Cardinals look fresher and more talented. But the Red Sox are hungry and poised. They might not win, but they will not lose easily. What a team. Another way of looking at it is if Breslow was his old self, we might've swept these guys. Cards are lucky its 2-2 quite frankly. Hate to say it but I agree with you on that. Breslow's implosion put pressure on the rest of the pitching staff. They need him to be able to pick up 4 to 5 outs per appearance and they're barely getting any. Lackey shouldn't have had to pitch tonight. Workman shouldn't have had to have pitched late in the game yesterday, and we all know what happened in Game 2. It's too bad because I know the peripherals weren't awe inspiring, but I thought he was great all year and particularly excellent against Tampa and Detroit.
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Post by pedey on Oct 27, 2013 23:21:15 GMT -5
I'll throw out a wild idea. IF the Sox win the game tonight, pitch Dempster and Workman tomorrow. It may give up tomorrow's game, but you go back and throw Lester in game 6, Lackey in game 7. that's actually a pretty good idea. But would that be throwing away game 5?
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 27, 2013 23:26:53 GMT -5
How about we just win game 5 with lester and game 6 with Lackey? Game 7 with Peavy makes me really nervous, even if its at home.
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Post by tizzle on Oct 27, 2013 23:27:21 GMT -5
I hope Clay Buchholz' fortitude is remembered. He had absolutely nothing. Totally nothing. He still went out there and got 12 outs and kept the Sox in the game. He might not have been bleeding from his ankle, but I hope Schilling will give him credit for this. I certainly do. That was ballsy. Absolutely. Gutsy performance. One run because of Elllsbury's misplay, and I'm sure he could have gone one more inning if he din't need to be PH for.
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Post by preston on Oct 27, 2013 23:30:57 GMT -5
I hope Clay Buchholz' fortitude is remembered. He had absolutely nothing. Totally nothing. He still went out there and got 12 outs and kept the Sox in the game. He might not have been bleeding from his ankle, but I hope Schilling will give him credit for this. I certainly do. That was ballsy. I definitely will. Obviously, quite a lot of us were frustrated with the news that he wasn't 100% (and Fox was doing their best to hammer that point), but his velocity was clearly down. Fortunately, he has very good secondary stuff and he was able to get out of some tough spots. And Felix was very good tonight. For a guy that was somewhat vocal about his ability to pitch in a relief role, he has performed well in the biggest stage in baseball. I am very impressed. Gomes is Gomes, I don't know, but that was pretty awesome. Finally, Farrell is an enigma. He's made some questionable decisions, but, on the other hand, well, he's made some decisions that have paid off in a big way. I hope he sticks with Ross, even though he didn't hit well, and, hopefully, he continues to give Nava chances.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Oct 27, 2013 23:34:29 GMT -5
This team has a lot of stones. Incredible win.
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semperfisox
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Post by semperfisox on Oct 27, 2013 23:44:40 GMT -5
We win tomorrow, we're taking this.
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Post by curiousle on Oct 27, 2013 23:51:34 GMT -5
I hope Lester is rested cause he may have to go the full nine. If anything the pressure is back on the cards to use their bullpen and win that game tomorrow. Gotta get Lackey ready for game 6. Can you bring back Doubront for the start in Game 7? You CANNOT go with Peavy for game 7, Cards are hitting .225-.235 against lefties all year....I like our chances tomorrow night...but you have to figure out who starts Game 7, if necessary. (Tongue in cheek-Start Doubront, bring in Britton in the 5th/6th.....but you cannot go with Peavy if you want to win.
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Post by nationinthesouth on Oct 27, 2013 23:51:52 GMT -5
I'll throw out a wild idea. IF the Sox win the game tonight, pitch Dempster and Workman tomorrow. It may give up tomorrow's game, but you go back and throw Lester in game 6, Lackey in game 7. that's actually a pretty good idea. But would that be throwing away game 5? I actually mentioned something similiar but in regards to this game and setting it up for tomorrow so we could at least take one. That being said now I say go for broke tomorrow with Lester on the mound and an off day following. Go back to Boston 3-2 and we can piece together a win at Fenway
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 28, 2013 0:17:11 GMT -5
that's actually a pretty good idea. But would that be throwing away game 5? I actually mentioned something similiar but in regards to this game and setting it up for tomorrow so we could at least take one. That being said now I say go for broke tomorrow with Lester on the mound and an off day following. Go back to Boston 3-2 and we can piece together a win at Fenway I would guess that Lester would have a 200 pitch limit tomorrow given the state of the bullpen. I hope he's sharp tomorrow. That's why I was a little surprised when Lester went back out to pitch the 8th with the Sox up 7-0. With a lefty leading off I thought that was the spot for Morales to pitch in. He might not get the guy out but he can't give up a 7 run homer, although give him time, he'd figure it out. So Lester threw about an extra 10 pitches to get to 112 pitches. Would saving those additional pitches keep him fresher for Game 5? I would think Wainright would revert back to his normal self in St. Louis. He looked a lot better the last two innings he pitched at Fenway, but the one question regarding him is his workload. He's gotta be up around 275 IP this year counting the post-season. Will this affect him? I'm thinking that the workload has affected Breslow and that he's gassed and that's the reason why he can't throw a quality strike to save his life. Even Koji looks very tired. On the other hand, as it's been pointed out, it looks like the time off has restored Felix Doubront.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 28, 2013 0:31:44 GMT -5
I'll throw out a wild idea. IF the Sox win the game tonight, pitch Dempster and Workman tomorrow. It may give up tomorrow's game, but you go back and throw Lester in game 6, Lackey in game 7. that's actually a pretty good idea. But would that be throwing away game 5? How do people feel about Workman? i think he'll probably get serious consideration for either games 5 or 6. It's been quite a ride for him this year, yet he seems unfazed. That said, these games only get bigger as the WS goes on. Example: Bogaerts looked mortified after his throw got away. Luckily nothing came of that. Also, we need to acknowledge Doubront as a few posters have. The Cards aren't as good against lefties, and he's been money in the bank to this point. Hope that lasts. Great ride so far.
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danr
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Post by danr on Oct 28, 2013 2:12:43 GMT -5
As I watch the parade of Cardinal relievers, most of whom seem to be able to throw 96 or better, I think how did they manage to get more RPs onto their roster than the Sox? Then, I remember that the Sox have Dempster and Morales, and Farrell is doing everything possible to avoid using them - which is right. But why did they put them on the roster to begin with?
OK, Dempster is a veteran and deserved enough respect to get a chance to pitch an inning or so, but Morales?
Basically, Farrell is trying to operate with five RPs, and the Sox might have wrapped it up if Breslow had not lost his stuff somewhere between Detroit and the Series. He looks terrible now. Doubront is going to have to become the go-to LHP.
My offseason hope is that the Sox find a way to deal Buchholz, Dempster, and maybe Peavy, along with Middlebrooks, and some minor leaguers, and get another power hitter of note, and a first-line starting pitcher. I now think they should re-sign Drew and make Bogaerts the 3B. Drew is in a terrible batting slump, but his defense is as good as it gets. I think Bogaerts can be a terrific 3B. I don't think Middlebrooks will be.
Does anyone else think Ellsbury may be damaging his FA value? He looks terrible at the plate, just a slap hitter with no power, and mostly popping up. His defense has not been very good, either. The few times he has been on base, he has been a statue at first. He simply isn't a positive factor in these games. If I were a GM of a team looking for a top-notch CF, I would be wary.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Oct 28, 2013 6:47:08 GMT -5
The posts on this last page have really got me thinking.
Here are what I see as facts: The Red Sox have extremely short-staffed themselves by a combination of factors -- Morales untrustworthy; Buchholz hurt; Dempster untrustworthy and not really a reliever; Breslow apparently gassed; Doubront great, but given two consecutive multi-inning relief appearances, what can we reasonably expect to get out of him, and when, in the final 3 games; Peavy unworthy of another start according to some posters, and not a reliever either; Tazawa being short-shifted for whatever reasons (maybe he's reaching the end of his rope too.); and Uehara quite likely wearing down. Against that, the Cardinals have a full staff of what look like very capable and reasonably well rested pitchers. This really feels like the Alamo here, and we aren't the guys outside the walls. Given that we simply cannot outgun the Cardinals pitching-wise in the last 3 games, how do we marshall our forces inside the fort to give ourselves the best chance of winning two of them?
Approach 1: Go for it now. Pitch Lester tonight, Lackey in game 6, and figure out game 7 when it arrives. Who starts game 7 may well depend on who is needed when out of the pen for games 5 and 6. Do you pitch Doubront again in relief in game 5 (gad I hope not) or 6? If so, he can't/shouldn't start game 7. I see two basic arguments for this approach: (1) It keeps your horses in rotation and is your best attempt to win the series in 6, and with the entire roster looking tired to some extent or other, maybe it's best to go out guns blazing, as it were; (2) If Lester starts game 5 he can likely give you something in a game 7 if needed -- maybe an inning, as Lackey did last night. If Lester doesn't start tonight, he has one appearance left in the series. Given the Cardinals' problems with LH, the potential for this can't be overstated. In fact, if the Sox were leading in a game 7, I wouldn't be surprised to see Lester out for the save in the 9th rather than Uehara, depending on the part of the Cards' lineup due out.
Approach 2: Pitch Lester tonight, go with mix and match back at Fenway in game 6, and save Lackey for game 7. The arguments for this approach would seem to be that (1) Lester can still pitch in game 7; (2) A Workman/Dempster/Peavy selection for game 6 would at least be in the supportive confines of Fenway; (3) Lackey gets an extra day of rest to recover from his relief inning last night, and is the kind of personality you like to see on your side in a game 7 -- think Mickey Lolich circa 1968.
Approach 3: Mix and match tonight, then go with Lester and Lackey at Fenway. This approach (1) gives both horses extra rest; and (2) if the Sox truly commit to using the non-business end of their staff tonight, gives Breslow and Uehara extra time to maybe get a 102nd wind as well. If the Sox were to do this I'd start Dempster because Workman at this point is more acclimated to relief, and frankly, if the Sox somehow are actually able to make a competitive game out of this situation I'd rather have Workman pitching in the later stages of the game than Dempster.
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Post by soxcentral on Oct 28, 2013 7:21:10 GMT -5
I don't see any better option than going Lester/Lackey for the next 2 and then figuring out how to navigate a Game 7 if/when it happens. In a theoretical Game 7 you can get what you can from Peavy but you could also try and steal a couple innings from Lester and even Buchholz at that point too. Add in potentially Doubront and Workman if they are available and you can get through 6-7 innings with enough pitching.
Not a strategy that would work for very long, but there are only 2-3 games to go and we are playing for a title.
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Post by ray88h66 on Oct 28, 2013 7:53:42 GMT -5
Great series so far. All the pitchers but Breslow came up big last night. This series has the vibes of a classic.
Gutsy move by the manager going to Lackey. If that blows up he gets roasted.
Have to go all out for it in games 5 and 6. If it gets to 7 it's all hands on deck.
I've never seen two games end(back to back) with such crazy plays ever. Never mind in the World Series.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Oct 28, 2013 8:25:14 GMT -5
I hope Clay Buchholz' fortitude is remembered. He had absolutely nothing. Totally nothing. He still went out there and got 12 outs and kept the Sox in the game. He might not have been bleeding from his ankle, but I hope Schilling will give him credit for this. I certainly do. That was ballsy. Agreed. Felix has been awesome, too. I kinda hope he's the one who gets the call if there is a Game 7.
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Post by jmei on Oct 28, 2013 8:34:17 GMT -5
![](http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/194ljyjrf9hcppng/ku-xlarge.png) I love the way this simple little chart can say so much about the game.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Oct 28, 2013 8:44:25 GMT -5
I hope Clay Buchholz' fortitude is remembered. He had absolutely nothing. Totally nothing. He still went out there and got 12 outs and kept the Sox in the game. He might not have been bleeding from his ankle, but I hope Schilling will give him credit for this. I certainly do. That was ballsy. Agreed. Felix has been awesome, too. I kinda hope he's the one who gets the call if there is a Game 7. But if Felix gets the call in game 7 he isn't going to have any chance of giving a bonafide start (say, 5 innings) unless he doesn't pitch in the next two games. We've got to win one of those next two. The more I think about it, the more I like approach 2 IF the Sox can win tonight. Lackey is going to make one more start and that's it now. Wouldn't it be worth it to have him ready for a game 7 and on extra rest? Should we really burn him in game 6 against Wacha rather than having him ready to go against a Kelly?
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