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Post by beasleyrockah on May 12, 2015 11:05:21 GMT -5
When the Saints had "Bountygate" they suspended Sean Payton for a year over "lack of institutional control", as if he should've known what was going on. The Patriots draft pick loss and fine are for the same infraction.
My question is how the league office doesn't hold itself to this same standard. How is it that Grigson sent an email to the league office before the game about deflated balls and it never reached Goodell? This entire situation was handled so poorly before the game even started that you could easily say the NFL had lack of institutional control over the entire process (both in handling the footballs and handling the "sting" operation or whatever you want to call it). The fact that Goodell wouldn't have known about the Colts concerns before the game began suggests either people in the league office took it upon themselves to do something without the commissioner's knowledge, or Goodell knew and just lied about it.
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Post by jimed14 on May 12, 2015 11:07:06 GMT -5
The NFL could have stopped teams from handling the balls at all. Why didn't they? Do they think this is good for the league?
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on May 12, 2015 11:13:26 GMT -5
All this allegory about the NFL procedures is just a smokescreen. Tom Brady was the protagonist that set in motion all that has followed. The NFL couldn't let this go and has set it's own standard on punishment. Everyone knows it had no effect on the outcome of the games..but that is incidental to the actions of purposefully deflating the ball to get an advantage. He directed it and he joins the rest of us in the unfair world of punitive measures.
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Post by jimed14 on May 12, 2015 11:15:15 GMT -5
All this allegory about the NFL procedures is just a smokescreen. Tom Brady was the protagonist that set in motion all that has followed. The NFL couldn't let this go and has set it's own standard on punishment. Everyone knows it had no effect on the outcome of the games..but that is incidental to the actions of purposefully deflating the ball to get an advantage. He directed it and he joins the rest of us in the unfair world of punitive measures. And also the world of selective prosecution. |
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Post by beasleyrockah on May 12, 2015 11:49:43 GMT -5
All this allegory about the NFL procedures is just a smokescreen. Tom Brady was the protagonist that set in motion all that has followed. The NFL couldn't let this go and has set it's own standard on punishment. Everyone knows it had no effect on the outcome of the games..but that is incidental to the actions of purposefully deflating the ball to get an advantage. He directed it and he joins the rest of us in the unfair world of punitive measures. The NFL's own refs and own gauge's had conflicting PSI measurements, so actually there are issues with the NFL procedures in this regard. The fact is the NFL had two different gauges available to measure footballs before the game, and each gauge had a difference between .3-.45 PSI per reading. That's only part of the issue, but again, when the NFL can't get consistent/accurate gauges to measure footballs it's hard to not look at their process as anything but flawed and sloppy. And again, the league says this is a serious offense, yet the league was notified before the game of this potential situation and the word never reached the commissioner...if that's not "lack of institutional control" what is? |
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Post by jimed14 on May 12, 2015 11:55:56 GMT -5
All this allegory about the NFL procedures is just a smokescreen. Tom Brady was the protagonist that set in motion all that has followed. The NFL couldn't let this go and has set it's own standard on punishment. Everyone knows it had no effect on the outcome of the games..but that is incidental to the actions of purposefully deflating the ball to get an advantage. He directed it and he joins the rest of us in the unfair world of punitive measures. The NFL's own refs and own gauge's had conflicting PSI measurements, so actually there are issues with the NFL procedures in this regard. The fact is the NFL had two different gauges available to measure footballs before the game, and each gauge had a difference between .3-.45 PSI per reading. That's only part of the issue, but again, when the NFL can't get consistent/accurate gauges to measure footballs it's hard to not look at their process as anything but flawed and sloppy. And again, the league says this is a serious offense, yet the league was notified before the game of this potential situation and the word never reached the commissioner...if that's not "lack of institutional control" what is? This is proof that the NFL didn't think it was a big deal and then decided it was because they could punish the Patriots for probably doing something. |
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Post by pasadenasox on May 13, 2015 9:40:54 GMT -5
Shockingly, John Tomase thinks most defenses of the Patriots are without merit.
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on May 13, 2015 9:59:51 GMT -5
Tomase and Borges are being paid to troll. Just ignore the dweebs.
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Post by jimed14 on May 14, 2015 11:11:25 GMT -5
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on May 14, 2015 11:36:19 GMT -5
The Patriots come out firing with a rebutall to the Wells' report... This is going to real ugly real fast and Gooddell is not going to last much longer as the NFL Commissioner.. check out page 2 of the Daniel Goldberg letter (Patriots' cooperation memo) where he sites information provided by the Patriots about evidence the Colts' ball boys were observed by Jacksonville personnel with needles under their long sleeve shirts in a prior year (hmmm, no wonder Peyton Manning has been relatively silent), as well as Patriots' balls from the October 16, 2014 game against the Jets being significantly over-inflated. wellsreportcontext.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/3427_0011.pdf |
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Post by jmei on May 14, 2015 12:12:54 GMT -5
The attempts at explaining away the texts and calls are kind of a joke. Like this passage:
Like, seriously? THAT'S the excuse? The right approach was to say (as others in this thread have done so) that Brady likes his balls deflated to the legal minimum and was annoyed at the staff when they weren't inflated to his liking, but never told them to deflate the balls after the refs had cleared them and the evidence that suggests that they did so is weak. Instead, we get nonsense like the above.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 14, 2015 12:44:14 GMT -5
The attempts at explaining away the texts and calls are kind of a joke. Like this passage: Like, seriously? THAT'S the excuse? The right approach was to say (as others in this thread have done so) that Brady likes his balls deflated to the legal minimum and was annoyed at the staff when they weren't inflated to his liking, but never told them to deflate the balls after the refs had cleared them and the evidence that suggests that they did so is weak. Instead, we get nonsense like the above. Seriously, that's one of those things that, even if true, you just don't write unless you have an email from him from like three years explaining that's his nickname and why in detail. Yikes. |
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Post by scottysmalls on May 14, 2015 13:19:50 GMT -5
Everyone against the Patriots is focusing on that single aspect of the website and ignoring the rest of the points made throughout, which essentially debunk the Wells report without even needing that part. Yes it sounds a little farfetched, although it is supported by the text referring to him deflating his body, but this is an essay written up by lawyers more than anything to establish a legal basis and declare their argument. Whether you believe it or not, this clearly establishes reasonable doubt, and with the context of the rest of the Patriots report effectively demolishes any hope Wells has of showing that his report effectively proved even preponderance of the evidence, which it absolutely did not.
If the Patriots argue their stance in front of a neutral arbitrator there is a zero percent chance they lose. Of course, it is very unlikely they get a neutral arbitrator from the NFL, but once they do take this to court it could look very ugly for Wells and the shield, just as it currently looks ugly for the Pats.
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Post by jmei on May 14, 2015 13:24:25 GMT -5
Whether you believe it or not, this clearly establishes reasonable doubt This is not really how reasonable doubt works. You have to believe at least some of it, and probably a big chunk of it. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 14, 2015 13:37:42 GMT -5
Also, reasonable doubt isn't the standard here anyway. I don't even know what it would be in front of a judge/court. What would the legal basis be? It's not like it's a wrongful employment action like Brady's might be, right?
I'm going to read the Wells report and this rebuttal this weekend. I was ready to just let all of this slide but it just won't die.
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on May 14, 2015 13:57:49 GMT -5
Honestly, this entire thing is making me less and less enthusiastic about the Pats and the NFL. It's a gigantic clown show.
I really don't want to sound like I'm letting the Pats off the hook here - especially since the deflator excuse is laughably stupid - but this whole thing never would have been a story if the NFL didn't leak fake PSI readings (or if they had issued a statement debunking the leak).
The NFL has taken the philosophy that "there's no such thing as a bad headline" and reinforced it times 1,000. They saw an opportunity to create controversy in the two weeks leading up to the Super Bowl and pounced on it...and they saw an even better opportunity to keep themselves at the top of the headlines after the NFL Draft news starting getting stale.
There's a reason no other league would ever try to paint one of their best teams or QBs in a negative light just for some short-term headlines. It's pathetic and obvious what the NFL is doing, and ultimately I think it will have a poor long-term effect.
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Post by jimed14 on May 14, 2015 14:55:12 GMT -5
This would have happened anyway, but I bet there will be far fewer Pats fans after Brady/Belichik are gone now. I'd compare it to me and many others completely losing interest in the NBA after Larry Bird retired. I kept holding on while he was around even though I was sick of the NBA just because I was such a huge Bird fan.
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Post by scottysmalls on May 14, 2015 16:01:24 GMT -5
Whether you believe it or not, this clearly establishes reasonable doubt This is not really how reasonable doubt works. You have to believe at least some of it, and probably a big chunk of it. There is one text clearly showing that he refers to himself deflating in the context of his own body, and there are no texts blatantly showing him referring to himself as the "deflator" in terms of footballs. |
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Post by chavopepe2 on May 16, 2015 15:34:55 GMT -5
I just wanted to take a few minutes to bullet point my thoughts on deflategate. I'm curious to hear what others think:
1. I firmly believe that it is inconclusive at any truly scientific level as to whether the balls were inflated below 12.5 psi to start the AFC Championship game.
2. I believe there is zero evidence that anyone was ever told or ever tried to deflate the balls below 12.5 psi.
3. I do not believe the Patriots rebuttal to the "deflator" text. I think it is quite likely that McNally did take air out of the footballs.
4. I do not see any real evidence that Tom Brady in anyway told anyone to take air out of the footballs or even knew that air was being taken out of the footballs. I don't think the evidence that he paid off McNally to do this is strong at all.
5. I believe the setting of pressures prior to games was not done with any level of consistency or reliability. I believe this frustrated Brady and he made it very apparent that he was not happy about it. This includes sending the rules to officials and telling team personnel to make sure the officials were setting them to 12.5. I think this was the impetus for McNally and Jastremski to deflate the balls.
Based on those facts I believe the team should have been fined (for McNally and Jastremski's actions). I do not believe any of that warrants any penalty at all for Brady.
6. I very much believe the Wells report sought to find guilt. I don't think there was any attempt to weigh all the evidence impartially.
7. I believe the NFL grossly mishandled the situation from day one. NFL policy should be that when a team reports a potential infraction by another team, the league should issue a memo to all teams reminding them of the rule and they should be prepared to ensure the rule is followed.
8. The NFL without question should have done more to squash this when the Mortenson report came out. Allowing an inaccurate rumor to be the story didn't help anyone.
9. Well I'm somewhat critical of the way the Patriots handled this between the AFC Championship and the Superbowl, it is easy to forget that some people were calling for them to be disqualified from playing in the Super Bowl. Sure, it was the minority, but I have a hard time believing the Patriots ever really had the option of doing anything but denying it unless the league first came out and clarified the violation (including the various pressure readings relative to what the expected pressures would be.)
10. The initial penalty is wildly disproportionate to the crime. There is no way draft picks should have ever been a part of this.
11. I believe Goodell was involved in the initial punishment and had it come from Vincent knowing it would be appealed and knowing ahead of time he would hear the appeal.
12. On that note, I believe Goodell already knows he is planning to reduce it to 2 games
13. I don't think Brady or the NFLPA will allow it to end there. I think the precedent for allowing a suspension that is at least partially based on the refusal to hand over personal information is significant on the part of the NFLPA. I believe this ends up in court and if it does I suspect the suspension is overturned.
14. I have no idea what the process is for the Patriots. Can anyone clarify this? What is the process? Appeal? Do they sue the NFL? Do they just take the punishment?
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Post by pasadenasox on May 17, 2015 0:32:44 GMT -5
I agree with pretty much all of this.
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Post by rangoon82 on May 18, 2015 9:10:02 GMT -5
Pats released Chekwa. CB depth is comical
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Post by texs31 on May 18, 2015 9:41:44 GMT -5
Pats sign Brandon Spikes
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Post by texs31 on May 19, 2015 12:31:03 GMT -5
Pats will not fight penalties.
I'm hoping this is part of a deal but not just reducing Brady's suspension. Not likely, but I'd like to see RG say that the penalty to Brady has been dropped outright bc there is no PROOF of wrongdoing and that the Pats penalties are due to their "behavior" during the investigation.
I'm going to be disappointed, however, as it's likely just going to be a reduction in Brady's suspension.
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Post by mgoetze on May 19, 2015 12:36:24 GMT -5
I'm not worried at all about the Brady suspension given the division the Pats play in, the 1st round pick is a much bigger deal IMHO.
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Post by benjaminbuttons on May 19, 2015 12:43:10 GMT -5
Will be shocked if Brady's suspension isnt reduced now.
I assume Goodell said to Kraft "put down your guns and we'll reduce the Golden Boys ridiculous suspension"
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