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Post by jmei on Mar 9, 2017 9:36:51 GMT -5
Hightower is a very good player and team leader. But he has his weaknesses (pass coverage and durability), and he's not irreplaceable. The Patriots are rightfully wary of making him the highest-paid off-the-line LB in football.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 9, 2017 9:43:54 GMT -5
Hightower is a very good player and team leader. But he has his weaknesses (pass coverage and durability), and he's not irreplaceable. The Patriots are rightfully wary of making him the highest-paid off-the-line LB in football. I don't disagree but there isn't a current replacement and he's a big game player. I know you tend to discount that stuff but I do believe some guys are better winners than others. I don't over pay too much for that if I'm a GM but as a fan it makes me nervous if they were to lose that without a replacement. I don't consider Hightower an off the line linebacker though. He plays mostly off the line but his versatility as a pass rusher makes him a bit different than the typical off the line backer. He's not great in coverage but he's not asked to lineup one v one in those situations and his intelligence make him good in zone. Point is I agree with you but I think the real weakness and problem with paying him is the durability. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 9, 2017 9:57:22 GMT -5
If this meant we give up Butler and get a 1st, would you guys be okay? It depends on the pick and what the contract is we don't match. Most likely, it's a late first. If Butler signs for 12-13m a year, then I'd rather the Patriots match. "If Gilmore got 14+, there is no way Butler takes less". Yes, there is. He's a restricted free agent so the Patriots or the team giving up a first rd pick should not pay the same market value as if he were unrestricted. It's not entirely unreasonable that a team would commit 26m of its cap to its starting corners. Especially, the Patriots. They may see the value there as a lot better than paying pass rushers, which it's clear they stay out if they market. However, if a team goes nuts and gives him 15-16 then I'd probably let him walk. With the QBs this team is set to play, I don't think it's an accident they are loading up in the secondary this season. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 9, 2017 10:18:21 GMT -5
Some reports are suggesting Butler may be traded to the Saints for Cooks.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on Mar 9, 2017 11:32:05 GMT -5
Some reports are suggesting Butler may be traded to the Saints for Cooks. If it happens, kind of a classic Belichick move. Crazy on the surface, but the more you think through it the more there's logic. IF Malcolm priced himself out or they worry about the age issue (they'd rather pay Gilmore $14M than Butler $13M for next 2/3), then get value for him if he'll be grumpy. Not sure anyone will give up a first since Pats lose leverage by making their choice early. MAYBE they'd get a second, but BCooks for 2 years is comparable to or better than a second. Don't want to see him leave, but didn't want to see CJones leave, or Asante Samuel, or Seymour, or Vrabel, or whomever else. BB makes sure to turn assets turn into assets. It does make you wonder about them slow-rolling Garoppolo trades, since he is an asset whose value will expire on the same timeline as Butler. QB is just that much more important I guess. |
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Post by texs31 on Mar 9, 2017 12:17:06 GMT -5
Rapoport reporting Pats working to bring Harmon back. "It's expected to happen".
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 9, 2017 12:40:20 GMT -5
Harmon... my man... underrated part of the secondary
Yes, trading Butler and replacing him with Gilmore makes sense. Same cash outlay and you add extra talent as a result. It's smart. I really just wanted to see the backfield with them both in it. They need another corner if they trade Butler. Maybe Ryan returns now.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 9, 2017 12:47:02 GMT -5
By the way, if they trade Butler I bet part of it has to do with saving the Franchise for Garoppolo.
And the Saints just signed Tedd Ginn so they added a receiver maybe preparing to trade Cooks.
Another aspect of the trade would be they save on the cap this year about 2.5m from Butler to Cooks plus they will certainly cut Amendola which saved another about 6m.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 9, 2017 13:08:00 GMT -5
Tight end is no longer a need. Allen is 26, but that doesn't mean they won't take one. A pass catcher would be fine, but part of what makes the dual threat they have now is the blocking and receiving ability of both. They get to go big and run it down the defense throat if they stay smaller or spread them out if they go big. We didn't get to see it a lot last year due to Gronks injury. You really think that? If Gronk goes down your OK with Allen? He's nothing like Gronk or Bennett catching the ball, he's more like Daniel Graham. A good player to have, a big target in end zone, but he just won't stretch the field like Gronk and Bennett did. I also remember the Pat's having great success using Hernandez at TE and he wasn't a good blocker. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 9, 2017 13:16:09 GMT -5
By the way, if they trade Butler I bet part of it has to do with saving the Franchise for Garoppolo. And the Saints just signed Tedd Ginn so they added a receiver maybe preparing to trade Cooks. Another aspect of the trade would be they save on the cap this year about 2.5m from Butler to Cooks plus they will certainly cut Amendola which saved another about 6m. No it has everything with not paying two players almost 30 million a year, they just will not do that. They only give out a few market rate deals, they will not give two of them to corners. Butler for Cooks makes a lot of sense. This draft class is loaded at corner also, 6 of the top 32 are currently corners. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 9, 2017 13:26:39 GMT -5
If this meant we give up Butler and get a 1st, would you guys be okay? Yes. As much as I would like Butler to stay for another year on the cheap, that's a great return. Hard to turn that down. We still have Rowe and Gilmore, so while you need to add another corner, we aren't left with nothing. Just goes to show Bills brilliance in getting Rowe last year. Shocked we signed Gilmore, but in Bill's mind Gilmore and a first is better than paying Butler. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 9, 2017 13:27:52 GMT -5
Tight end is no longer a need. Allen is 26, but that doesn't mean they won't take one. A pass catcher would be fine, but part of what makes the dual threat they have now is the blocking and receiving ability of both. They get to go big and run it down the defense throat if they stay smaller or spread them out if they go big. We didn't get to see it a lot last year due to Gronks injury. You really think that? If Gronk goes down your OK with Allen? He's nothing like Gronk or Bennett catching the ball, he's more like Daniel Graham. A good player to have, a big target in end zone, but he just won't stretch the field like Gronk and Bennett did. I also remember the Pat's having great success using Hernandez at TE and he wasn't a good blocker. It's no longer a big need. Is that better? and yea if he's healthy I'd be ok with Allen. He's a better receiver than I think you give him credit for. Plus, we saw what Bennet was the last 6 weeks or so when he was hurt and that was good enough. |
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Post by texs31 on Mar 9, 2017 13:27:56 GMT -5
Giardi reporting Pats finalizing a 2-Yr deal with Alan Branch
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 9, 2017 13:30:18 GMT -5
By the way, if they trade Butler I bet part of it has to do with saving the Franchise for Garoppolo. And the Saints just signed Tedd Ginn so they added a receiver maybe preparing to trade Cooks. Another aspect of the trade would be they save on the cap this year about 2.5m from Butler to Cooks plus they will certainly cut Amendola which saved another about 6m. No it has everything with not paying two players almost 30 million a year, they just will not do that. They only give out a few market rate deals, they will not give two of them to corners. Butler for Cooks makes a lot of sense. This draft class is loaded at corner also, 6 of the top 32 are currently corners. I guess I said that wrong. I said if they trade Butler, because if they trade him I assume it's because their plan before signing Gilmore was to use him to replace Butler so I think part of the bigger reason is they don't want to use the tag on Butler next year. Also, it's Belichick's way of using Butler to get value. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 9, 2017 13:40:40 GMT -5
You really think that? If Gronk goes down your OK with Allen? He's nothing like Gronk or Bennett catching the ball, he's more like Daniel Graham. A good player to have, a big target in end zone, but he just won't stretch the field like Gronk and Bennett did. I also remember the Pat's having great success using Hernandez at TE and he wasn't a good blocker. It's no longer a big need. Is that better? and yea if he's healthy I'd be ok with Allen. He's a better receiver than I think you give him credit for. Plus, we saw what Bennet was the last 6 weeks or so when he was hurt and that was good enough. I don't think I am underrating him as a receiver. A healthy Allen isn't as good as a slightly injured Bennett in my opinion. He's just not that type of vertical pass catching TE, he sounds like a clone of Daniel Graham. Who Bill loved because his blocking was like having another tackle and he could make some catches. If Gronk stays healthy we will be fine, but at this point you almost have to assume Gronk gets injured. I also wonder how long Gronk has left, at some point these injuries are going to affect his on field play. Multiple back surgeries is major. So we have a great blocker, let's go out and get a great receiving TE. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 9, 2017 13:50:28 GMT -5
QB market is going crazy. Cousins wants to be traded, Cutler and Romo have been released. Glennon just got 3 years 45 million with 19 million in guarantees from Bears. 49ers signed Hoyer, but he got backup money.
Could Washington trade Cousins and then get Jimmy?
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Post by texs31 on Mar 9, 2017 13:55:04 GMT -5
I would've thought he is a little more like a MUCH better Hoomanawanui (okay, I just wanted to see if I could spell it right on the first try). A better pass catcher than your pure blocking tight end, line up as a TE or the old H-Back position and be a threat in the red zone.
But Marty and Gronk could both stretch the field and Allen doesn't appear to do that at all.
Again, experts seem to be saying that, athletically, this may be one of the best/deepest TE drafts. Add that to the uncertainty over Gronk's future and I'd be shocked if they don't get one early.
EDIT: Sure, I spell the name correctly but make the classic your/you're blunder. Nice!
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 9, 2017 14:27:12 GMT -5
Patriots love Tight Ends so they will likely draft one but depends on what your idea or early is...
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 9, 2017 14:32:37 GMT -5
Branch's deal is 2 years up to 12 million. Not a bad deal for a guy Bill said was our best DT last year.
That's why I will be shocked if Harmon gets 5-6 million. If they pay him that much, they must plan on really increasing his role over last year.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 9, 2017 14:42:41 GMT -5
As to drafting a TE who knows with Patriots. I wouldn't be shocked if they took one in the first round or top 3 rounds. At the same time they might just try and get a steal in like the 5th round. Heck it wouldn't surprise me if they don't draft a TE at all. Bill just looks at the draft in a different way than most people. You have a better chance at winning the lottery than knowing what Patriots will do on draft day.
It just seems to make sense. We could use a good young TE and this draft is just loaded. But then again years back we needed a young WR in a loaded class and Bill didn't get one till the next year in Dobson.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 9, 2017 15:26:46 GMT -5
Pats still reportedly want to sign Butler long term versus trading him. Want to pair with Gilmore.
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Post by texs31 on Mar 9, 2017 15:38:50 GMT -5
Houston just gave Cleveland a 2018 2nd rounder to convince them to take Osweiler off their books.
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Post by texs31 on Mar 9, 2017 15:50:44 GMT -5
So Cleveland now has 2 '17 1st Rounders (1 and 12), 2 '17 2nd Rounders, 1 '18 1st Rounder and 3 '18 2nd Rounders.
I never thought I'd see the day when BB envied the Browns.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 9, 2017 16:01:17 GMT -5
So Cleveland now has 2 '17 1st Rounders (1 and 12), 2 '17 2nd Rounders, 1 '18 1st Rounder and 3 '18 2nd Rounders. I never thought I'd see the day when BB envied the Browns. The Browns could be loading up for a Jimmy G trade. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 9, 2017 16:08:47 GMT -5
Gilberts contract details-
65 million and 40 million guarenteed. Biggest contract in Patriots history.
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