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Post by texs31 on Mar 15, 2017 19:44:54 GMT -5
Does seem crazy. But it was two different contracts. He committed the Lloyd murder while under the terms of the 2012 extension (and they received that credit).
The double homicide was during his rookie deal. They'll receive that credit if he's convicted.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 15, 2017 22:17:12 GMT -5
Does seem crazy. But it was two different contracts. He committed the Lloyd murder while under the terms of the 2012 extension (and they received that credit). The double homicide was during his rookie deal. They'll receive that credit if he's convicted. You should read what Rip posted. This is all about the extension and the guaranteed money he got paid. The Lloyd murder got them to withhold last part of gaurenteed money, double murder will allow them to go after money already paid, but most likely he spent it so they won't get anything. Only get cap savings on what you recover. |
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Post by texs31 on Mar 15, 2017 22:18:18 GMT -5
Yeah I didn't get to the link. 4 month old acting cray tonight.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 16, 2017 6:55:53 GMT -5
So the Hightower contract seems to be even more favorable to the team than expected.
Albert Breer @albertbreer
Patriots LB Dont'a Hightower's deal has a base value of $35.5 million over 4 years. There's $875K in per-game roster bonuses each year.
7:46 AM · Mar 16, 2017 from Massachusetts, USA
That only works out to be about 50k a game but it shows durability was a big part of the contract.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 16, 2017 11:20:24 GMT -5
Patriots current cap space: 27,473,351
Hightower contract details..
Signing Bonus: 10m
Base salaries:
2017: $1.25 million (fully guaranteed)
2018: $5.75 million (fully guaranteed)
2019: $7 million ($2 million guaranteed for injury only, becomes fully guaranteed if on the roster the fifth day of the 2019 league year)
2020: $8 million
Roster bonus: $875,000 per season ($54,687.50 per game active)
Incentives (based on playing time): Up to $2 million each season based on Pro Bowl and first-team All Pro
Salary cap numbers:
2017: $4.46 million
2018: $8.95 million
2019: $10.21 million
2020: $11.21 million
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 16, 2017 15:49:31 GMT -5
So the biggest questions going forward are depth and what we do with Butler and Garoppolo. If you trade either Butler or Garoppolo, you will need another CB or QB.
In a perfect world it makes sense to keep both. I just don't see that happening. Bill traded out of both first and second rounds of draft, I have to believe it's because he thinks there's a great chance he makes a trade to get back into at least one of those rounds. The draft is loaded in CB and QB. There aren't a ton of top QB, but there is great depth. A guy like Chad Kelly in 4th round would be a great player to add to Brissett in my opinion. So I would much rather keep Butler and trade Garrapolo if we get that huge offer everyone thinks Brown's will make. The offer that starts with #12 pick and includes a good amount more.
The only way I don't trade Garrapolo for an offer like that, is if the Patriots believe Brady walks away if he wins another Superbowl next year. For some players I can see that as a worry, but with Brady I think he would just want another one. I truly believe he wants to win as many Superbowls as possible and will play as long as he can play at a high level.
I keep Butler, his agent has already said he won't holdout. Which I don't understand, it takes away leverage. So keep him and franchise him next year and trade him if you don't want to pay him. I just don't see a long-term deal now. It just gives us the best chance at winning next year.
As for depth I would love to see Patriots bring in some more veteran help at DE and LB. Using the draft to fill depth at RB and TE. This draft is so loaded at RB we have to get one, if not two RB. If you bring back Blunt, are you going to keep 5 RB? I don't think so. So I draft one RB to be a top 2 every down RB and a player for the practice squad.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 16, 2017 16:11:12 GMT -5
Not to say I told you so, but I did predict Hightower would end up signing for less than people were expecting he would by a lot. Also mentioned team having per game protection for durability, which is 875k per yr.
I really wish Butler was staying! Losing both starters is a little dicey. Ryan was a tackling machine he will be missed. Pull a Hightower please Butler.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 16, 2017 17:00:32 GMT -5
Who would ever think DH would be signed with a cap hit of under 4.5 million this year. They must have plans for that money or they wouldn't have back ended the deal so much. HMM.... what's coming?
Or do they expect the cap to go up enough to absorb it? I know Hightower at 11.3 in 2020 wont hurt much with a cap of 200.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 16, 2017 17:30:39 GMT -5
We got lucky with Hightower in my opinion. The teams with massive cap space didn't see him as a fit at LB like Mike Reiss said. So he didn't get the big offer almost all experts expected he would. It's just like with Julian, we got lucky. He had more value to us than other teams.
With Butler that's just not the case, a lot of teams value him. Hightower still got a deal that makes him what the 2-3 highest paid ILB in game. Butler wants top 10 CB money and some team will give him close to that. Patriots sure seem to value him more as a top #2 corner, than a top #1 corner.
As to Hightower low cap # that's standard practice. You see that in most contracts. Yes the cap increases should take care of those increases. Knowing the Patriots he most likely never plays at that 2020 cap #.
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Post by texs31 on Mar 17, 2017 8:57:07 GMT -5
I would just caution that the contract they offer a player is not always reflective of how they value him on the field. No matter how good he is on the field, he's a restricted free agent and, in the past, that market doesn't often lead to massive contracts. Most teams don't like to pay huge bucks AND give up picks. So the Pats don't HAVE to pay him top CB money (yet).
If you offer him a top contract, there is only one outcome (you have Butler and Rowe as your top 2 bc I doubt they sign Gilmore - or anyone else of note, especially given the Logan Ryan deal - if they had planned to give Butler his big deal).
If you offer him a low contract (that of a 2nd tier CB or lower) while also assigning the 1st rounder tender, there are multiple palatable outcomes (all include having Gilmore):
1. You get Butler at a discounted long-term contract to pair with Gilmore (Highly unlikely, but possible)
2. You get Butler to play at his tender and you have a pretty great tandem of Gilmore and Butler for a year then revisit (Outside of injury risk for Butler, mathematically, this seems like his best play as his RFA status will likely put a cap on a contract offer that UFA status would not).
3. You lose Butler but get compensation for him (At this point, this seems the most likely. Just HOW palatable this option is depends on the exact compensation).
4. Butler signs an offer sheet for somewhere between your low offer and a Gilmore type contract and you get to match it if you chose or go to option #3 above. (Only slightly more likely, IMO, than option 1 but still not very).
It's just the system and few play it as well (or, at least, as purposefully, as BB). I just don't think he's saying to Butler "you're only a number 2 CB". I just think he's saying your a RFA and that's how the system works.
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Post by texs31 on Mar 17, 2017 9:07:27 GMT -5
I think UMASS nails it on what's next. Given the money they gave Burkhead, I agree he's more than a replacement for Bolden (though he IS a special steams guy as well). Some even think the contract suggests starter-level carries. Still, another back (even if just to compete in training camp) makes sense.
I could see an upgrade at the swing/developmental T position but I don't think this is a great year for it. If someone falls in their laps, sure.
On Butler holding out, I think he can only miss so many games before he would lose his pending UFA status (Is it you can miss 6 or have to play at least 6). Plus, that's some pretty big money he'd be missing out on by losing game checks.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 17, 2017 14:38:47 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 17, 2017 15:24:58 GMT -5
In regards to Butler they just seem to be handling this like they don't want him back.
He a restricted free agent, but talking about trading him shows the player you don't want to keep him. Not talking about a new contract does the same thing. You have a bunch of leverage, but are they using it wisely?
For me if you wanted to keep him either tell him we'll talk contract next year or give him an offer and if he doesn't like it, tell him to find a team that will pay you more and give up a first round pick. That's not likely to happen, but he'll get a good understanding of what his value is as a restricted free agent. Instead they engage in trade talks with Saints. Where they seem to be willing to lower the cost of signing Butler from #11 pick to pick #32 plus a little more. That's if all the reports are right.
I get playing hardball, but they seem to have gone beyond that with Butler. They might not be telling Butler they see him as a top #2 corner to his face, but money talks. Offers of 6 to 7 million is exactly what that says, especially when you look at Gilmore's contract. Brandon Carr just got 4 years 24 million. Logan Ryan is seen as a very good #2 corner and got 3 years 30 million.
Even if you went way low and used Ryan's deal that 4 years 34 million. That's over 8 million a year.
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Post by jmei on Mar 17, 2017 15:35:27 GMT -5
The Patriots often do not make initial contract offers to free agents. They let the free agent scour the market and see what they come up with, and then make a decision about whether or not to make a matching-type offer. That's what they did with Welker, McCourty and Hightower, among others, and that's what they're doing with Butler. They'd rather not negotiate against themselves or offend a guy with a low-ball offer.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 17, 2017 15:57:46 GMT -5
That tactic would be just fine with me. If it's you're a restrictive free agent, go see what's out there and bring that offer back to us. That doesn't include having trade talks with Saints. That sends a totally different message to player. That's what I don't get if you truly want to keep him long-term.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 18, 2017 13:46:33 GMT -5
Butler was offered the 7m a year BEFORE last season that's more than he would have earned than if they just controlled his rights like they can over a 3 year period. How is that disrespectful? He mad under 500k last year, could make under 4 this then the franchise tender. They offered him more than that plus security. That's respect not disrespect.
If a player wants top dollar for his position 2 years before he's an unrestricted free agent then that's his prerogative but a team needs to be dumb to do it. Butler is good but he's not a transcendent player like Gronk.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 18, 2017 14:25:50 GMT -5
Trying/willing to trade a player, says to the player the team doesn't want you long-term. I don't think I used the word disrespectful, just I think they are handling this poorly if they wanted to keep him long-term.
Last year's talk was about an extension that would kick in this year, not last year. So your looking at a slight increase from 4 to 6-7 million for this year. Then if they franchise him, the tag has to be like 14 plus million. That's 18 plus million compared to 12-14 million. You see why he wouldn't sign a deal like that?
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 18, 2017 15:03:21 GMT -5
That's not my understanding of last years extension... you have any references if that? Everything I've heard or read was that it was before last season and it would have paid him 21m over the next 3 years.
And no I don't think we can say they are handling it poorly because we have no clue what Butler has been asking for. I'll let you know if we see contract details with NO.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 18, 2017 15:51:02 GMT -5
That's not my understanding of last years extension... you have any references if that? Everything I've heard or read was that it was before last season and it would have paid him 21m over the next 3 years. And no I don't think we can say they are handling it poorly because we have no clue what Butler has been asking for. I'll let you know if we see contract details with NO. Where did you get your information? The only thing we have is they offered him an extension at 6 to 7 million a year. I've never seen a report saying it was 3 years 21 million. I'm going off how the Patriots do business. As far as I know they have never paid a player more than his rookie contract. They always make players play out there orginal contracts. They do add on years all the time, it's a standard practice for them. So unless I see a report that says it would have increased his salary last year, I'm going to assume the extension would have kicked in this year. If they want to keep Butler long-term it sure does seem they have mishandled the situation. If they don't want to pay him, then they haven't. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 18, 2017 16:36:36 GMT -5
I heard it in a couple different interviews with "reporters", but it can easily be them misconstruing. So we really don't know what was offered when. Regardless, like I said I never begrudge a player for not signing a deal but if you want to sign a contract that's going to guarantee you life time security 2 years before you are an unrestricted free agent you have to expect a pretty steep discount is a trade off. But yes I understand why he wouldn't sign a deal in your scenario or in mine. I also understand why he would in either. There's no right and wrong to it.
From the Patriots side of things they could easily feel like they would rather have Gilmore cooks and a first rd pick than Butler plus a first or Butler plus Cooks and I can't blame them for that thinking either. What people over look sometimes (not saying anyone here) is that the decision for the Patriots wasn't simply Butler vs Gilmore at the same money. By signing Gilmore it allows them to cash in the Butler asset. It's actually quite brilliant, if your cold blooded like Bill.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 18, 2017 16:38:22 GMT -5
By the way I'm still not ruling out that the Patriots end up extending Butler after he negotiated with the Saints or that he plays here under the tender. I might have those odds under 50% but I'm not ready to say it's inevitable he's gone.
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Post by texs31 on Mar 18, 2017 17:37:28 GMT -5
Considering trades and wanting a player long term are not mutually exclusive for the Pats. We want you but only under our terms. If you don't want to be here under those terms, we'll exercise our "power" in the free agency system.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 19, 2017 7:05:05 GMT -5
I think that the Pats actually do look at Gilmore as being a better player, of course I have no way of knowing that outside of the contract they just gave him.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 19, 2017 9:27:36 GMT -5
I really don't think this is a Butler vs Gilmore thing but if you want to compare the players, Gilmore is a bigger faster player who's better at pressman. The Patriots schedule this year is such that they probably want to play a lot of pressman with Rowe and Gilmore. That being said I'm sure they would love to have Butler who's a better overall corner than Gilmore.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 19, 2017 9:28:19 GMT -5
Gilmore also has room for growth in the Patriots eyes. In his 5 years he's had 5 different defensive coordinators.
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