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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 24, 2017 7:14:19 GMT -5
I don't know that he'd be a very good safety. He's never been a physical tackler or a particularly rangy guy, even at his peak. His strength is jamming guys at the line, playing trail coverage, recognizing routes and beating the receiver to the spot. Those skills don't translate well to safety. The route recognition parts of it might, but diagnosing routes when you're looking back towards the line of scrimmage is different from doing so in man coverage. Revis was a pretty bad zone corner, so I'm not sure he'd be a great safety. I actually think he'd make for a decent slot corner. Those guys are rarely burners, and you get away with a lot of grabbing and holding on the interior (which Revis is good at). I like the idea of him coming in and being more of a slot Cb, he strikes me as the type of guy who has too much pride to allow last year to tarnish his legacy. So he should be motivated to go out on top, both with his play and another SB. Not sure why nothing has come to fruition on Butler but with a motivated Revis and Butler I would say this D is loaded. Obviously the O is loaded, looking like a pretty stacked team to defend the SB crown. |
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Mar 24, 2017 7:55:10 GMT -5
It all comes down to the asking price for Butler - the Saints don't want to give up a top 15 AND pay him (understandably), while the Pats know he's worth more for one season than the last pick in the 1st round.
The Pats hold all the leverage here, so unless the Saints give up their own pick, I suspect Butler starts the season in NE. It wouldn't surprise me if they traded him midseason (depending on Cyrus' progression), or if he's just here all next season and walks.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 24, 2017 8:27:18 GMT -5
Or the Saints could sweeten the pot the same way the Pats did for Cook by including another pick. I find it interesting that the deal hasn't been consummated yet, why, what is the hold up if they had previously discussed the deal? Makes me a bit more hopeful that Butler is coming back.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 24, 2017 12:34:38 GMT -5
The Patriots have no reason to rush what they are going to do with Butler. If they can sign Revis than trading Butler makes sense. If not Revis, than maybe someone like Verner. They aren't talking to Revis so he can come in and compete with Rowe for the 3rd and 4th CB position. It would be for the 2nd and 3rd CB position.
Not sure why anyone thinks Butler is worth more than pick #32 for one season. I can certainly see why you might keep him, but that doesn't mean one season of Butler is worth more than pick #32. Cooks a younger player, under team control for two years barely fetched more than that. Chandler Jones only got us a late second, when you look back how the heck didn't they get more? They got a late third round pick for 1/2 a season of Collins.
I want to keep Butler for next year because I want another Title and if he leaves we have a hole at CB. I don't trust Jones right now. That's why getting a player like Revis is huge, it allows you to trade Butler. I wouldn't worry about the CB position with Gilmore, Revis and Rowe.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 24, 2017 18:38:15 GMT -5
Butler is worth the 34 and 43 picks or the number 11th pick because that's what it would take to get Butler as a restricted free agent. That's what the draft value chart has the number 11 pick at. The number 43 and 34 picks.
You can't connect the Cooks and Butler trades because the Cooks trade is already completed.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 24, 2017 21:16:44 GMT -5
Butler is worth the 34 and 43 picks or the number 11th pick because that's what it would take to get Butler as a restricted free agent. That's what the draft value chart has the number 11 pick at. The number 43 and 34 picks. You can't connect the Cooks and Butler trades because the Cooks trade is already completed. No Butler is only worth what a team will give up to trade for him. Per a ton of reports Saints won't trade #11 pick for him, which makes sense. You do know that Saints can trade #11 pick for a lower pick, let's say pick #31 and then sign Butler to offer sheet. Then if Pat's don't match Saints give up pick #31. So your whole logic on this subject is very flawed, it's not nearly what you think. The Cook's trade set the Market. It showed teams love this draft and weren't willing to give up good picks to get Cooks. Who in my opinion is the same caliber player as Butler but is younger and has two years of team control. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 24, 2017 23:04:43 GMT -5
Butler is worth the 34 and 43 picks or the number 11th pick because that's what it would take to get Butler as a restricted free agent. That's what the draft value chart has the number 11 pick at. The number 43 and 34 picks. You can't connect the Cooks and Butler trades because the Cooks trade is already completed. No Butler is only worth what a team will give up to trade for him. Per a ton of reports Saints won't trade #11 pick for him, which makes sense. You do know that Saints can trade #11 pick for a lower pick, let's say pick #31 and then sign Butler to offer sheet. Then if Pat's don't match Saints give up pick #31. So your whole logic on this subject is very flawed, it's not nearly what you think. The Cook's trade set the Market. It showed teams love this draft and weren't willing to give up good picks to get Cooks. Who in my opinion is the same caliber player as Butler but is younger and has two years of team control. What exactly are the Saints going to trade the number 11 pick for exactly? They're not going to trade away a pick for the sake of losing it in a Butler trade. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 25, 2017 0:57:21 GMT -5
No Butler is only worth what a team will give up to trade for him. Per a ton of reports Saints won't trade #11 pick for him, which makes sense. You do know that Saints can trade #11 pick for a lower pick, let's say pick #31 and then sign Butler to offer sheet. Then if Pat's don't match Saints give up pick #31. So your whole logic on this subject is very flawed, it's not nearly what you think. The Cook's trade set the Market. It showed teams love this draft and weren't willing to give up good picks to get Cooks. Who in my opinion is the same caliber player as Butler but is younger and has two years of team control. What exactly are the Saints going to trade the number 11 pick for exactly? They're not going to trade away a pick for the sake of losing it in a Butler trade. The basic idea from the article I read was to trade back from #11 and get a late first plus a couple more picks. Maybe a 2nd and 5th rounders, something like that. While not great value they get Butler and two picks, instead of just giving up pick #11. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 25, 2017 1:23:40 GMT -5
What exactly are the Saints going to trade the number 11 pick for exactly? They're not going to trade away a pick for the sake of losing it in a Butler trade. The basic idea from the article I read was to trade back from #11 and get a late first plus a couple more picks. Maybe a 2nd and 5th rounders, something like that. While not great value they get Butler and two picks, instead of just giving up pick #11. That sounds way less ideal rather than keeping that number 11 pick (with Butler) and trading the 34 and 43 picks. Don't know why they'd do that at all if they're looking for the best talent available. Maybe the Saints could trade down to the number 15 spot or something and get a extra third rounder to offer to BB (that and giving back the 3rd round pick of the Patriots). Still, what it all boils down to is that the Patriots should get more than the Patriots first round pick back because of the leverage they have over Butler and the Saints. Remember, the Patriots hold all the leverage because they can match any offer to Butler and they have the cap space. This trade would be different from the Cooks trade because the Saints didn't want to pay Cooks his roster bonus because they knew they wanted to trade him. His roster bonus wasn't all that high but they didn't want to pay it if they knew they weren't going to keep him. The Patriots simply offered the best package for Cooks or it was a holdover trade until Butler agreed to a contract with the Saints, which has proven to taken a long while now. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 25, 2017 2:58:47 GMT -5
It's not ideal, but in that scenario the Saints force the Patriots hand. Right now the Patriots have the option of keeping Butler for just under 4 million for one year if they want to. If the Saints sign Butler to an offer sheet the Patriots have to match or lose him. Sure they could match, but if it's a big offer that seems unlikely.
I really think the Patriots are looking at options right now. Seeing if they can sign someone like Revis, which would make trading Butler less painful. If they can't they might want to keep him, unless the Saints force there hand.
At the end of the day, I bet the Saints and Patriots workout a trade. That just makes the most sense and Saints keep pick #11.
How do the Patriots have more leverage over Butler than Saints had over Cooks? Sure they can match any contract, but Cooks was already under contract for 2 years. Butler has yet to sign tender, so officially he's not even under contract. The Saints had a ton more leverage in the Cooks trade, than Patriots do in a Butler trade.
Cooks roster bonus played a role, but it was very minor. It was pocket change for NFL teams. If you're going to trade him, it makes sense to do it before the bonus is due. That being said if they thought they could get a lot more by paying the bonus and trading him latter they would have.
When looking at trade value, I see Butler and Cooks as very similar players. Thing is Cooks is way younger and signed for two years at a bargin rate. Your idea about trading #32 and #43 is the Patriots getting almost double what they paid to get Cooks. For an older player that is going to get a big contract. It would a massive overpay based on current market, I hope you're right. I think pick #32 is great value for Butler if you want to trade him.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 25, 2017 7:08:56 GMT -5
UMass I agree with your logic in the Saints thinking but you're giving them more credit than they deserve. Loomis is a terrible GM. He boxed himself into a deadline corner and that never works out in a teams favor. Tend to agree with you on what will likely happen I just think the Saints are a dumb dumb organization and that shouldn't be forgotten here.
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Post by costpet on Mar 25, 2017 7:50:44 GMT -5
The question is are the Pats better off with or without Butler and a bunch of draft choices in 2017. Keeping Butler gives them an outstanding defense to go along with their improved offense. Considering Brady has a limited future, if you want to win another SB, now is the time to do it. Looking at what Bill has done the last month, it seems that he wants to go all in this year and not worry too much about the future. If Butler walks next year, so what? They'll get a comp pick at the very least. That will be a 3rd. So, IMO, they should keep him this year no matter what. And Brady will get his 6th.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 25, 2017 9:03:42 GMT -5
I reject this notion that the Patriots are going "all-in"... it's complete and utter bull**** and it drives me mad every time I hear someone say it (no offense to anyone here). It really needs to stop being mentioned tho. This team has around 26m in cap space left plus more once Danny is restructured or cut. If they were going "all-in" Butler wouldn't even be considered a trade candidate. On top of that, they wouldn't have all this cap space still at their disposal. You don't think Poe at 1 year 8m would have been an upgrade for this team in the front 7? Or countless other players who signed that could have been upgraded in areas. This team is doing the same thing it's always done which is build the best teams they can now within certain confines and looking down the line as well. They don't have clear patterns because they are always adjusting and looking to exploit new ways of building a team. Simple example early on they were a 3-4 defense because very few teams played it and they could identify cheap players who fit that defense with the lower demand for them keeping prices low. Teams started to copy that and it flipped so now they are more of a 4-3 base. Overly simplistic way of showing how they adapt but it makes the point.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Mar 25, 2017 9:51:04 GMT -5
The Patriots have no reason to rush what they are going to do with Butler. If they can sign Revis than trading Butler makes sense. If not Revis, than maybe someone like Verner. They aren't talking to Revis so he can come in and compete with Rowe for the 3rd and 4th CB position. It would be for the 2nd and 3rd CB position. Not sure why anyone thinks Butler is worth more than pick #32 for one season. I can certainly see why you might keep him, but that doesn't mean one season of Butler is worth more than pick #32. Cooks a younger player, under team control for two years barely fetched more than that. Chandler Jones only got us a late second, when you look back how the heck didn't they get more? They got a late third round pick for 1/2 a season of Collins. I want to keep Butler for next year because I want another Title and if he leaves we have a hole at CB. I don't trust Jones right now. That's why getting a player like Revis is huge, it allows you to trade Butler. I wouldn't worry about the CB position with Gilmore, Revis and Rowe. Because people are overrating the value of pick 32. Pick 32 is a bust all the time. I'd rather have one year of Butler plus the right to franchise him in 2018 than pick 32. Thats before you take into account we have a loaded team and are by far Super Bowl favorites, and just letting Butler walk in free agency will net them a third back anyway. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 25, 2017 12:41:05 GMT -5
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Post by telluricrook on Mar 25, 2017 12:55:45 GMT -5
I Blame Dombrowski for the activity on the Celtics, Patriots and Bruins threads lol. Thats what happens when he erases the farm for MLB players.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 25, 2017 14:24:49 GMT -5
The Patriots have no reason to rush what they are going to do with Butler. If they can sign Revis than trading Butler makes sense. If not Revis, than maybe someone like Verner. They aren't talking to Revis so he can come in and compete with Rowe for the 3rd and 4th CB position. It would be for the 2nd and 3rd CB position. Not sure why anyone thinks Butler is worth more than pick #32 for one season. I can certainly see why you might keep him, but that doesn't mean one season of Butler is worth more than pick #32. Cooks a younger player, under team control for two years barely fetched more than that. Chandler Jones only got us a late second, when you look back how the heck didn't they get more? They got a late third round pick for 1/2 a season of Collins. I want to keep Butler for next year because I want another Title and if he leaves we have a hole at CB. I don't trust Jones right now. That's why getting a player like Revis is huge, it allows you to trade Butler. I wouldn't worry about the CB position with Gilmore, Revis and Rowe. Because people are overrating the value of pick 32. Pick 32 is a bust all the time. I'd rather have one year of Butler plus the right to franchise him in 2018 than pick 32. Thats before you take into account we have a loaded team and are by far Super Bowl favorites, and just letting Butler walk in free agency will net them a third back anyway. I don't think so. You should do some research before you say things my friend. Patriots last two picks at #32 were Logan Mankins and Malcom Brown. 5 years of those type of players is better than one year of Butler if can sign a guy like Revis to replace Butler. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 25, 2017 14:35:01 GMT -5
That article says the cost to get Butler will most likely be less than a first round pick. Not sure how that article helps your case of Patriots getting a ton in trade. That article proves my point, we will get less for Butler than we gave up for Cooks! |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 25, 2017 14:52:07 GMT -5
But if they trade Butler it proves the addition of Cooks was not an all in move.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 25, 2017 14:52:50 GMT -5
Rip my comments about the Saints are from an article I read from a Saints beat writer. Was just passing the information along because of Pedro thinking Butler's value was #11 pick. I don't think highly of Saints, they should have got more for Cooks in my opinion.
As to the Patriots going all in, it has merit. This has to be the most aggressive offseason the Patriots have had. Two huge free agent signings and trading a first round pick for a stud WR. Also resigning most of there important free agents. While still making there normal trades for players like Elay and Allen.
For the Patriots this is a going all in type offseason. Have they ever traded a #1 pick for a player before? Nevermind that they also traded out of the second round, that is not the Patriots normal way of doing business.
They didn't do what the Broncos did by just signing a ton of free agents, but that doesn't mean they aren't going all in. They are just doing it in a very smart way. As for Poe I don't think they wanted him. His numbers have declined and there are reports about him not working hard enough. That's not a Patriot type player.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 25, 2017 14:53:47 GMT -5
But if they trade Butler it proves the addition of Cooks was not an all in move. Not if you bring in Revis. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 25, 2017 15:49:59 GMT -5
What are the two huge free agent signing? Gilmore and.... Guy wasn't a a huge signing not sad Burkhead... they still have a ton of cap room.
Being aggressive doesn't mean all in. It's hard to be all in when you have a ton of cap space unused. They've also brought in young players or guys in their primes not older veterans.
Why did they trade 1st and 2nd rd picks? Because they liked Cooks better than what they would draft and while they technically traded out of the second that's very misleading. They got a quality player and moved down 8 spots. Bill doesn't care if it's now an early 3rd it was 8 spots in the draft and minimal cap space to add Ealy.
Perhaps we just disagree with what all-in means.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 25, 2017 15:51:12 GMT -5
But if they trade Butler it proves the addition of Cooks was not an all in move. Not if you bring in Revis. Revis is a down grade and they have plenty of space to keep Butler. All-in means doing everything possible to win this year. All being the key work. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 25, 2017 16:21:00 GMT -5
Hightower wasn't a free agent?
They are giving up future success to win now, that's what the Cooks trade was. 5 years of a good player, versus two years of an impact player now. Again have they ever made a move like that before? I don't remember them ever trading a first round pick for a player. Not once in like 20 years.
You keep getting hung up on cap space, but do we have huge holes that need to be filled? I can also bet they use a good amount of it to add more depth. They aren't done yet. The Patriots always wait out players and get some good depth players this time of year.
So what's better Butler or Revis and let's say pick #32? It's not just Revis vs Butler, we would be able to add another high pick in a loaded draft. We could get an impact player with that pick at RB, LB, CB etc. Think a Thuney type player and impact on team. Also Revis on Patriots vs Butler on Patriots is going to be closer than you think for next year at least. Bill always gets the most out of his players. He wouldn't trade Butler and sign Revis if he thought Butler was twice the player.
Again for the Patriots this is a going all in type offseason. They won't be stupid and just waste money. They traded out of the first two rounds for the first time I can remember. That's giving up future success for impact players now. It's the same thing as DD getting Sale, but staying below luxury tax line. Did they not go all in, just because they could have spent some more money? There's different ways to go all in than just spending money.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 25, 2017 16:57:10 GMT -5
You said "also resigning most of their important free agents" so I was not counting Hightower as a new free agent per your post.
For next year Butler is likely greater than Revis plus the 32nd pick.
We just disagree on the all in part. That's not the way they do things nor do I think they are doing that this year. They are certainly being aggressive but they aren't sacrificing the future for this year.
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