2017 Patriots Off-season

Where does it clearly say Saints might not have to give up 11 pick? It says he would be very surprised if they had to part with a first round pick. As in neither pick # 11 or #32. It says nothing about trading the equivalent of pick #11. Again your just making stuff up!

Again where does it say Saints need to meet Patriots asking price? It's talking about Butler agreeing to the Saints contract. Then trade talks can take off.

Oh course the Saints will have to work out a trade that Patriots agree to, that's not the Saints meeting the Patriots asking price that you think is pick #11. If they can't they would need to sign him to an offer sheet. Per report's thats not what they want to do. Show me some proof that Patriots asking price is pick #11 or picks that equal that. The article is very clear, but it doesn't even come close to saying what you think it does.

patriotswire.usatoday.com/2017/03/20/malcolm-butler-saints-playing-high-stakes-game-of-chicken/

You really don't  know how this works.  He can sign tender and then get traded or Saints can sign him to an offer sheet which Patriots can match.  It's a one or the other, not one leads to the other.  If he signs an offer sheet with Saints there is no signing the tender afterwards.  The offer sheet is his new contract.  He would play under offer sheet for Saints or Patriots if they match.

The Saints won't sign him to offer sheet right now because if Patriots didn't match, they give up pick #11.  That's why if they go the offer sheet route, they would trade down from pick #11 first.  That's why a likely Butler trade will happen after he signs his tender, with the knowledge that Saints and Patriots have a deal in place.

Of course Bill's going all in. Brady has a short time line, so he needs to do something now, not wait for the future. He's doing things now that he's never done before. Unless Butler's offer sheet is way out of line, he will match it to have the best cornerback tandem in the league. Then there's Jimmy G. If the Browns truly want a franchise type QB, it's there for the asking. But, they'll have to part with at least a number 1, perhaps two number 1s. There's no DE or OT that will take them to the Promised Land. Only a great QB can do that. Bill wants to crush the league while Brady is still standing. He has the cap space and the players to do it.

So, I think Butler stays and Jimmy G. gets the big trade to give the Pats some great draft choices. I've already preordered my SB Champs hat for next year.

Guys the Patriots are always doing things they've "never done before". That's why they are so good. The only thing that is remotely something they've never done before is trade the 32nd pick for a 23 year old WR that they have for 2 more years. Signing Gilmore is similar to when they signed Thomas. It's really no different. They've really done nothing to sacrifice the future. Going all-in does not equal trying to win. Going all in means putting ALL your chips in the basket to win now. Their abundant Cap Space, Allen being here instead of Bennett and the Hightower negotiations all pretty much show it's business as usual in a general sense.

The thing is Rip it's about the degree you put all your chips in, no team has ever put all there chips in.  No football team has maxed cap and traded all there draft picks.  Sure we have signed Thomas and done trades for players like Welker.  It's the fact we did it all in one offseason.

Do you think Red Sox have gone all in?

By your definition sports teams can't ever go all in, because they could have done more.

Per NFL rules Saints and Patriots can't talk Butler trade because he hasn't signed tender, but we all know they have.

Teams do it all the time because they don't get in trouble for it.  Just look at Jets and Revis.  What did they get a fine?  He made those comments in public and it was easy to prove.

It proves exactly what I said before, Saints can trade down and get Butler plus more, rather than just giving up the #11 pick.  These are not my words, but from a sports writer.  We are not getting the #11 pick or multiple picks that equal pick #11 for Butler like Pedro thinks.

I agree the Cubs went all in.  Thing is they didn't put all there chips in, so by Rips definition they didn't go all in.
They could have done more, but they didn't need to do that.

The fact that the Patriots hold all the leverage is why they would get the equivalent value of the 11 pick.

That's my whole point, they wouldn't.  Same reason Patriots aren't just going to blow money to fill needs that aren't there.  

No, we don't know they have. Your article and what you're putting blind faith into is based on -speculation-. There is not one thing factual in there, and you cannot claim 'we all know they have', because that same article quite specifically says the Patriots and the Saints cannot talk trade because Butler -is not under contract-.

Pedrofan45 over there is dealing with an absolute reality:

The Saints cannot -make- an offer sheet without that 11 pick. Period.

Which means the Patriots are within every right they have to demand at least that 11 pick if the Saints make an offer sheet right now.

You're relying on 'speculation that the Patriots have talked' here. And to be frank, that is stupid as git, because if 'everyone knows the Patriots and Saints have talked', you can bet that the NFL would know, and they would have like, zero compunctions about punishing / suspending Belichick for doing -something- they weren't supposed to do.

And if you think 'everyone does it' is a perfectly safe excuse, let me remind you of Deflategate and Spygate, then tell you you're absolutely nuts for thinking the NFL'd allow this sort of 'agreement'.  That sort of 'nothing to see' treatment applies to the Jets and the Giants. NOT the Patriots.

Also, Belichick has been on the record as saying they cannot discuss trade with Butler when Butler is NOT under contract and have NOT been talking contract, which is something more concrete than any 'we know they've been talking'.

And really, honestly, while I agree with umassgrad that Butler is not being traded for the number 11 pick or equal picks, the reality is Pedro is correct on that the Saints -cannot- acquire Butler by trading down picks.

The realistic scenarios, putting aside media speculations, under the current rules for RFA:

1) The Saints: have to give up an offer sheet -and- the number 11 pick (or better) to acquire him right now. At that point, the Patriots can match the contract offer OR accept the 11 pick.

The Saints would have to be stupid to do that. And even if they managed a contract that was low enough to account for the value of the number 11 pick, the Patriots could just match the contract and KEEP Butler.

2) Butler signs the tender offer. At that point, the Saints -could- make an offer that's definitely lower than what the Patriots would expect.

But at that point, the Patriots can do -anything- they want, including keeping Butler at the tender offer of 3.49 million. And I think that's what they would do. I think they're extremely malleable, though, in that they're just waiting to see what will happen with Butler before they decide, not pre-determine a path of 'trade him NOW' when they have a) no idea what the contract they'd have to match is and b) whether the Saints are actually silly enough to offer a contract -right now-.


What the Saints cannot do right -now- as long as Butler remains unsigned, because of how the RFA rules work:

1) Trade down the number 11 pick and then offer Butler a contract. At that point, they're disqualified from making a contract offer because they do not have their original 1st round pick to offer.

2) Ask another team to sign Butler, then trade picks for Butler's new contract.  (To say nothing of what happens to that trade if the Patriots simply match the other team's contract.)


You need to have Butler -signed- by the Patriots in order to have the Saints work out a deal with lower picks. And at that point, the Patriots are going to do whatever they want.

Gilmore got paid 4 million more than Ryan.  Gilmore is someone they projected to be a #1 CB, Ryan an #2 CB.

As to who would've been better? Let's see... Ealy was available in the first place because Carolina signed Julius Peppers. Someone who, you know, would have been a lot more -reasonable- to sign because he at least had proven productions. A LOT more proven last year too, as Ealy slumped. Hell, they could simply have signed Sheard -instead- of Ealy, since Sheard -actually- was a better player last year.

And if you're actually arguing 'putting all their chips in' means including trading chips, then I don't see it with the Patriots either.  They got younger, they got better, and they didn't really give up anything major other than their first round pick, which I'd argue is fairly common with most teams, and they got a -twenty-three years old WR- they could keep for a while.

The Patriots still have what, SEVEN picks in this year's draft?  They aren't going all-in.
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