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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 11, 2017 16:58:16 GMT -5
Not a Pats thing but I question Shannahan not hiring an offensive coordinator and calling plays himself. First, he hasn't called plays from the sidelines, at least not lately, he's one of those up in the booth wusses. Second, first time head coaches who are in control of personnel have enough other stuff to worry about.
I do see merit in it if he's grooming his guy to take over like Belichick did with Patricia and O'Brien. But Bill was the man by then so he could do it, plus those teams were transitional by Patriots standards... sorta
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Post by costpet on Feb 11, 2017 19:43:48 GMT -5
Pats have never called plays from the booth. They like to talk to the players directly and discuss things first hand. Sticking some guy high up away from everybody is just too isolated from what's going on.
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Post by costpet on Feb 11, 2017 19:48:45 GMT -5
There is no guarantee that your first round pick is going to be great. Or your 7th round pick will suck. It's a crapshoot. Jimmy G. may not be great, but he will be good. I think we'll get a 1st rounder from somebody and maybe more. Let the bidding begin.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Feb 12, 2017 9:48:19 GMT -5
Past trades for young QBs Cutler, Denver got Orton, 2 first round picks(#18) and if I remember right a mid 20s pick, a third rounder and had to send Bears a 5th rounder. Matt Schaub- Falcons switched 1st round pick #10 to #8 and got two top half of 2nd round picks Cassel - Pat's got a high 2nd round pick. I think we should get more than the teams got in Cassel and Schaub trades, but you guys are thinking we get a lot more than what Denver got for Cutler. If you look at a draft chart that assigns points to picks, even the Cutler trade isn't equal to a top 5 pick. You can look at Cutler now and laugh but at the time he was seen as one of the best young QBs in game. It was mind blowing that Denver would trade him. You can also look at Sam Bradford trade, a first and fourth round pick that was thought to be late 20s in each round. That's why I think the top 5 picks are a pipedream and even Clevelands #12 pick would take a bid bidding war to get. That's why I think any trade starts with a high second this year and another 2nd next year, maybe a 1st if those teams really want him. Its not even worth trading him for a second rounder. They'll keep him before they do that. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 12, 2017 9:55:07 GMT -5
Pats have never called plays from the booth. They like to talk to the players directly and discuss things first hand. Sticking some guy high up away from everybody is just too isolated from what's going on. I hate it and think it shouldn't be allowed. That being said I'm glad teams do it because although there are some advantages, I think over the long run it creates a disconnect |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 12, 2017 9:56:40 GMT -5
Agreed that they won't trade him for a second. If the second is the highest coming back there would have to be a lot of other picks and maybe a player or two
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 12, 2017 15:18:14 GMT -5
Past trades for young QBs Cutler, Denver got Orton, 2 first round picks(#18) and if I remember right a mid 20s pick, a third rounder and had to send Bears a 5th rounder. Matt Schaub- Falcons switched 1st round pick #10 to #8 and got two top half of 2nd round picks Cassel - Pat's got a high 2nd round pick. I think we should get more than the teams got in Cassel and Schaub trades, but you guys are thinking we get a lot more than what Denver got for Cutler. If you look at a draft chart that assigns points to picks, even the Cutler trade isn't equal to a top 5 pick. You can look at Cutler now and laugh but at the time he was seen as one of the best young QBs in game. It was mind blowing that Denver would trade him. You can also look at Sam Bradford trade, a first and fourth round pick that was thought to be late 20s in each round. That's why I think the top 5 picks are a pipedream and even Clevelands #12 pick would take a bid bidding war to get. That's why I think any trade starts with a high second this year and another 2nd next year, maybe a 1st if those teams really want him. Its not even worth trading him for a second rounder. They'll keep him before they do that. I clearly said a 2nd this year and a second and maybe a first next year. So two second round picks or a second and first round pick is not trading him for one second round pick. Or are you saying that two second round picks isn't enough? The second round picks were talking about are top 5 in that round. Maybe Cleveland gives you two second rounders this year and a third/fourth next year. You can get hung up on wanting a first round pick or you can look at packages that equal a first round pick. We all know Bill loves 2nd rounders and a ton of picks in general. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 12, 2017 16:23:56 GMT -5
Whereas in the last I think Bill would prefer a high 2 to a low first, I bet the opposite is likely true now due to wage scales and the 5th year option. Those likely outweigh the non-guarantee.. doesn't change the point of him liking second and mid round pick stock piling.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 12, 2017 18:25:19 GMT -5
He'll probably take whatever picks he gets and trades down to get 20 mid round picks so he can use them all on Rutgers players.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 12, 2017 18:26:59 GMT -5
Whereas in the last I think Bill would prefer a high 2 to a low first, I bet the opposite is likely true now due to wage scales and the 5th year option. Those likely outweigh the non-guarantee.. doesn't change the point of him liking second and mid round pick stock piling. You act like wage scale and 5th year options are new things. We traded down for Collins. We were going to trade down the year we drafted Brown. Reports said with like 5 picks to go we agreed to trade pick unless one player dropped to them, which Brown did. So Bill clearly hasn't changed his approach just because of the wage scale and 5th year option. He's all about value and getting a bunch of picks. He knows draft picks are hit or miss, so he would rather have more picks . |
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Post by costpet on Feb 13, 2017 7:39:08 GMT -5
Peter King, in his MMQB story this morning, thinks that Belichick will not trade Jimmy G. No matter what Brady thinks about playing another 5 years, Belichick thinks it probably won't happen and he wants an outstanding QB for the next 10 years. Plus, high draft picks are hit or miss anyway. Even if he's not traded, Jimmy will get his money. Something to think about.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 13, 2017 8:20:08 GMT -5
It's entirely possible they keep him and pay him but if teams come hard at him then they may not have a choice. Unless they have some sort of guarantee that he'd stick around and be a back up for a certain amount of money then they need to deal him should they get offered a huge package. However, the Peter King type reports are why they don't need a bidding war to have massive leverage. If the Bears want him and they think he's the man, then the 3rd pick in a draft is not only reasonable its a starting point.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 13, 2017 9:32:25 GMT -5
Obviously there are big free agent "issues" like who gets resigned or replaced. I'm still holding out hope that Butler, Branch, Hightower, Ryan and Harmon are all back. The rest of them are easily replaceable. Ryan and Harmon will be two major under the radar losses. We've discuss this tho.
A much lessor issue that could turn into a major one if not addressed is the tackle position on the offensive line. Cannon came almost out of no where to become one of the best right tackles in football and is signed to a nice long term contract so that's great. Solder is a free agent after this coming season, seems to get hurt a lot and just had an awful Super Bowl (1 sack allowed, 1 QB hit and 11 pressures). More importantly the 3rd tackle is Fleming. Fleming is ok for a 6th offensive lineman or a spot play here and there but in an ideal world they would be using a second round pick on a left tackle. The problem is this draft sucks as bad for tackles as it does for Quarterbacks... hopefully, they can find a good young tackle that can be groomed as Solder insurance and as a very strong backup.
I don't care how well Brady is playing he's about to be 40.. greater emphasis needs to be put on protecting him and having a more reliable running game.
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 13, 2017 11:58:50 GMT -5
Peter King, in his MMQB story this morning, thinks that Belichick will not trade Jimmy G. No matter what Brady thinks about playing another 5 years, Belichick thinks it probably won't happen and he wants an outstanding QB for the next 10 years. Plus, high draft picks are hit or miss anyway. Even if he's not traded, Jimmy will get his money. Something to think about. If BB thought he had the QB of the future in JG would he have picked Jacoby in the 3rd rd this year? Maybe, maybe it has nothing to do with anything but who can be sure. I still think JG is traded and reports like this one continue to raise the bar. I also think Tom is the QB of this team for a minimum of 3 years. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 13, 2017 17:57:43 GMT -5
Obviously there are big free agent "issues" like who gets resigned or replaced. I'm still holding out hope that Butler, Branch, Hightower, Ryan and Harmon are all back. The rest of them are easily replaceable. Ryan and Harmon will be two major under the radar losses. We've discuss this tho. A much lessor issue that could turn into a major one if not addressed is the tackle position on the offensive line. Cannon came almost out of no where to become one of the best right tackles in football and is signed to a nice long term contract so that's great. Solder is a free agent after this coming season, seems to get hurt a lot and just had an awful Super Bowl (1 sack allowed, 1 QB hit and 11 pressures). More importantly the 3rd tackle is Fleming. Fleming is ok for a 6th offensive lineman or a spot play here and there but in an ideal world they would be using a second round pick on a left tackle. The problem is this draft sucks as bad for tackles as it does for Quarterbacks... hopefully, they can find a good young tackle that can be groomed as Solder insurance and as a very strong backup. I don't care how well Brady is playing he's about to be 40.. greater emphasis needs to be put on protecting him and having a more reliable running game. Your forgetting that Vollmer isn't a free agent because he missed the full year. Reports says he's still under contract for one more year. So for next year depth should be good. Last year seemed like the perfect time to draft a tackle, as there were a bunch of them in 2nd and 3rd rounds but they didn't. Outside of the Superbowl Brady's protection was great. Now I have to wait to get my draft magazines before I can say how this tackle class is. If you don't plan on paying Solder maybe you look tackle in first round. All depends how Pat's view Solder. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 13, 2017 18:03:16 GMT -5
Peter King, in his MMQB story this morning, thinks that Belichick will not trade Jimmy G. No matter what Brady thinks about playing another 5 years, Belichick thinks it probably won't happen and he wants an outstanding QB for the next 10 years. Plus, high draft picks are hit or miss anyway. Even if he's not traded, Jimmy will get his money. Something to think about. If BB thought he had the QB of the future in JG would he have picked Jacoby in the 3rd rd this year? Maybe, maybe it has nothing to do with anything but who can be sure. I still think JG is traded and reports like this one continue to raise the bar. I also think Tom is the QB of this team for a minimum of 3 years. With Brady missing games we needed another QB and Bill Parcel was very on Jacoby. I really think Bill drafted him knowing he might trade Jimmy. |
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Feb 13, 2017 20:08:45 GMT -5
Belichick doesn't have a great track record drafting in the second round.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 13, 2017 20:36:17 GMT -5
Obviously there are big free agent "issues" like who gets resigned or replaced. I'm still holding out hope that Butler, Branch, Hightower, Ryan and Harmon are all back. The rest of them are easily replaceable. Ryan and Harmon will be two major under the radar losses. We've discuss this tho. A much lessor issue that could turn into a major one if not addressed is the tackle position on the offensive line. Cannon came almost out of no where to become one of the best right tackles in football and is signed to a nice long term contract so that's great. Solder is a free agent after this coming season, seems to get hurt a lot and just had an awful Super Bowl (1 sack allowed, 1 QB hit and 11 pressures). More importantly the 3rd tackle is Fleming. Fleming is ok for a 6th offensive lineman or a spot play here and there but in an ideal world they would be using a second round pick on a left tackle. The problem is this draft sucks as bad for tackles as it does for Quarterbacks... hopefully, they can find a good young tackle that can be groomed as Solder insurance and as a very strong backup. I don't care how well Brady is playing he's about to be 40.. greater emphasis needs to be put on protecting him and having a more reliable running game. Your forgetting that Vollmer isn't a free agent because he missed the full year. Reports says he's still under contract for one more year. So for next year depth should be good. Last year seemed like the perfect time to draft a tackle, as there were a bunch of them in 2nd and 3rd rounds but they didn't. Outside of the Superbowl Brady's protection was great. Now I have to wait to get my draft magazines before I can say how this tackle class is. If you don't plan on paying Solder maybe you look tackle in first round. All depends how Pat's view Solder. Volmer is a free agent, he got paid last year. He was injured, you don't lose a year towards free agency. At least I think so... now I'm having doubts but I haven't forgotten that I've never heard of such a thing and it doesn't make sense to me. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 13, 2017 21:26:08 GMT -5
In regards to Volmer I have read that he has lost a lot of weight which could be another sign. No longer keeping the bulk on, he is retiring would be my guess.
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Post by mattpicard on Feb 13, 2017 21:41:25 GMT -5
Vollmer's PUP time caused his contract to toll, so he won't be a free agent despite how he's listed on many outlets. There's widespread speculation that he's going to retire, fueled in part by the significant weight loss. And if he surprised everyone and decides to continue playing, he'll be on the books for a mere $2.25M, which is a pretty sweet value.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 13, 2017 23:24:13 GMT -5
So they can cut him with no dead money?
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Post by mattpicard on Feb 14, 2017 8:46:16 GMT -5
Correct. No dead money, and $2.25M in savings if he's cut/traded/retires.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 14, 2017 9:43:48 GMT -5
Belichick doesn't have a great track record drafting in the second round.  Yeah yeah yeah I know, but just saying. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 14, 2017 10:58:14 GMT -5
I'm not sure on the percentages of what makes doing well with second round picks but Belichick has drafted these players in the second round:
Adrien Klemm
Matt Light
Deion Branch
Eugene Wilson
**Marquis Hill (dies before we could find out)
Patrick Chung
Darius Butler
Sebastian Volmer
Rob Gronkowski
Brandon Spikes
Shane Vereen
Jamie Collins
Jimmy Garrapolo
That's our of 23 selections since 2000...
13 of 23 (call it 12 of 22 taking out Hill) and you can make and argument for Tavon Wilson being useful too.. same with Jordan Richard... he's played in a lot of games just on special teams but that position has been really deep in the 2 years he's been here so I guess we will find out with him next season..
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 14, 2017 13:34:30 GMT -5
Everyone thinks they are money in the first round and not so good in second round. For one they have more than twice as many picks in second round, so your going to get some busts. Second when the first round doesn't have players they like they trade down to second round.
I've seen the draft of Chung, Brace, Butler and Vollmer rated as a C for that round. All because Brace was a total bust. I laugh at that, 3 picks out of 4 are currently quality starters. Sure Pats got rid of Butler too soon. Rare case of Bill the coach letting down Bill the GM. Still how many teams can pick 3 starters in one round out of 4 picks?
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