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Post by mattpicard on Feb 17, 2017 17:44:50 GMT -5
Funny that one of the biggest questions about trading JG or not isn't even being discussed. I brought it up once but nobody is talking about it, Jacoby Brissett. Doesn't the thought of trading your backup QB include how you will replace him? Why wouldn't you trade a guy that you hope never plays if you can get real value for him in a trade for at least 1 player who should be a solid contributor? If of course that guy you hope never plays can be replaced by somebody like your current 3rd stringer. I think the Pats like Brissett. Brissett needs a lot of development before he's ready to step in as a starting QB. That was pretty obvious when he was forced into duty this padt season -- he didn't look comfortable throwing the ball at all. So it's not a matter of "do the Pats like him", but rather "is he ready to step into action in 2017-18?" The real question is this: do you trade Jimmy Garoppolo for a first or second round pick, or do you instead hold onto him for the 2017-2018 season, using the rationale that, if TB12 is to suffer an injury, Garoppolo is by far the best option to replace him? Will the return for Garoppolo, which even if encouraging is probably not going to be a QB, and definitely not a 2017-2018-ready QB, provide enough value that you'll be OK with Brissett being the backup? That's an incredibly tough question to answer, given how central Brady is to the Patriots offense. If you decide you're better off trading Garoppolo, you're making a bet that Brady's going to stay healthy. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 17, 2017 18:30:05 GMT -5
You cannot look at the quarterback position like others. If Brady blows out his knee next year like happened before his career is probably over. Then you have no quarterback and you're team is done.
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 17, 2017 18:55:13 GMT -5
The next question would be is JG capable of winning a Super Bowl? If the Pats keep him for a year of backup duty in case Tom gets hurt, can he lead them to another title? Isn't that really all that matters at this point. Because a couple of high picks in this draft will definitely help the team compete for more in the future.
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 17, 2017 19:17:10 GMT -5
You cannot look at the quarterback position like others. If Brady blows out his knee next year like happened before his career is probably over. Then you have no quarterback and you're team is done. Yes the QB position is different. But we are only talking about next year, 1 year of backup duty or a couple great picks. The Pats will not sign him to a big deal as long as Brady is on the team. And as far as Toms age goes he is a better and healthier athlete now than he has ever been, yes I know that sounds stupid but its true. You can tell just by watching him. I will be disappointed if they don't trade him for what the 12th picks value would be. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 17, 2017 19:30:12 GMT -5
I will bet on TB staying healthy.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 17, 2017 20:54:04 GMT -5
I was referring to rams post about trading him for whatever you can get. I wouldn't trade Jimmy just to get s return better than a compensatory pick. I want a big return or I'd keep him.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 17, 2017 22:58:24 GMT -5
Danny should be back for 2-4m... and he's worth it on a one year deal... he's very valuable to this team and now he knows how to stay on the field Yeah if Amendola isn't brought back, that would really upset me. I mean it's one thing if it's a true business decision like Hightower and you don't think the player should be worth that much money on your team, it's another thing to just be cheap and not to give a player like Amendola a 3 million dollar deal just because you wanted to save a couple million. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 17, 2017 23:08:42 GMT -5
Why couldn't the Patriots just sign a veteran QB who's a free agent to backup Brady if you don't think Brisset is ready?
I mean if Tom goes down, you're talking about no superbowl anyways. So why can't you just have a ready made backup replacement level free agent QB and not worry about impeding Brisset's development?
That way you can have it both ways. You're developing the "next potential franchise QB," you have a replacement ready to go if Brady does go down for a little while, and you get good draft picks to help this team win next year.
I don't know who's available in free agency this year for backup QB'S, just talking in general about it.
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Post by Coreno on Feb 18, 2017 0:10:37 GMT -5
I honestly don't think there's that much of a drop-off between 25 year old Jimmy G and 24 year old Brissett. There's also a ton of signs that the Pats really like Jacoby. Also, TB12 has had 1 injury in his 17 year career. There's no reason to hang onto Garoppolo, IMO.
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 18, 2017 6:39:23 GMT -5
Good point on signing somebody else to backup TB but historically don't the Pats usually only carry 2 QB's?
And to the point that Brissett didn't look good throwing the ball that someone made. He didn't look that bad in the first game. I actually thought he looked pretty good. Had a very strong arm, only real criticism was he needed to take something off his short throws as he ate up the receiver. Then he had the torn ligament in his throwing hand thumb but toughed it out and played because JG couldn't.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 18, 2017 7:42:40 GMT -5
They could sign a veteran but won't if hey have Jacoby bc no vet is that good. Who says they can't win a SB with Jimmy? Idk if hey can but I think there is a chance he's that good.
Is it likely Brady gets injured? Probably not, but he's 40 the likelihood is higher but again I don't know what's being lost here... I WOULD TRADE JIMMY. But I don't think a second round pick is enough because it is the QB position and Brady is old.... remember, you can keep him and franchise him then trade him next offseason. That's what they did with Cassell and got a second rd pick as part of the deal so therefor I'm not dumping him for whatever I can get. It's gotta be a big deal. At least one first no lower than he Cleveland pick.
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Post by texs31 on Feb 18, 2017 9:27:31 GMT -5
If they can only get a 2nd rounder this year, would they get more next? His value will be at his highest this year (assuming he doesn't end up playing for Brady next season and crushing it).
Part of his value this offseason comes in that a team can evaluate him on the cheap (contract wise) before tYing him up long term.
Next year, the new team will have to pay him before seeing his fit with their team.
I think they'll get the equivalent of at least a 1st Rd pick. May not actually be a 1st but a package matching that value (think trade value chart equivalent).
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Post by benfromma on Feb 18, 2017 10:38:19 GMT -5
I really don't understand anyone has the feeling that Jacoby Brissett is ready to be our backup in 2017. He may develop and become an excellent NFL QB but right now I am not sure he is ready. ( Buffalo, I know that injury did play into his performance but still looked lost )We know know right now that Garoppolo is @ a different level and the drop off between Brady and him would not be as great. Unless there is an excellent package of picks or players I am not giving up Garoppolo in a trade.
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Post by jmei on Feb 18, 2017 11:13:33 GMT -5
Remember, Cassel started 15 games the year before he was franchised and traded, and Vrabel was part of that package as well. If Brady stays healthy next year, Garoppolo still only has two games of competitive tape, and I don't think they're getting a big return for him on a one-year deal at the QB franchise tag price next year.
Good veteran backup QBs cost a good bit of money. The Josh McCowns of the world get $5M per year. I don't think the Patriots would trade Garoppolo and then turn around and sign one of those guys. If they trade Garoppolo, one significant contributing factor is that they think Brissett is ready to be second in line.
If the value of the package is the equivalent of a late first-round pick or better, I'm fine trading Garoppolo. There's a pretty good chance that this is Garoppolo's peak value, I don't think there's a huge dropoff to Brissett, and I think they're comfortable relying on Brady to stay healthy.
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Post by mattpicard on Feb 18, 2017 12:23:07 GMT -5
Remember, Cassel started 15 games the year before he was franchised and traded, and Vrabel was part of that package as well. If Brady stays healthy next year, Garoppolo still only has two games of competitive tape, and I don't think they're getting a big return for him on a one-year deal at the QB franchise tag price next year. Good veteran backup QBs cost a good bit of money. The Josh McCowns of the world get $5M per year. I don't think the Patriots would trade Garoppolo and then turn around and sign one of those guys. If they trade Garoppolo, one significant contributing factor is that they think Brissett is ready to be second in line. If the value of the package is the equivalent of a late first-round pick or better, I'm fine trading Garoppolo. There's a pretty good chance that this is Garoppolo's peak value, I don't think there's a huge dropoff to Brissett, and I think they're comfortable relying on Brady to stay healthy. Yes, no, and yes. I would categorize the drop off, given where each player is at developmentally, as huge. |
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 18, 2017 12:25:25 GMT -5
The dropoff from Brady to anyone else means no more championships so they should maximize Brady's chances to win while he's still playing. Trading Garrapolo is a no-brainer.
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Post by Coreno on Feb 18, 2017 13:24:00 GMT -5
Lets put it this way, the drop off between JG and JB is almost nonexistent compared to the drop off between TB and JG.
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Post by benfromma on Feb 18, 2017 14:01:45 GMT -5
We were not watching the games this year. I do believe Brady is GOAT but Garoppolo can be a top QB in this league my only question is that can stay healthy We need to understand that Father Time wins and even though Brady has not seemed to have slowed he is not immune. We have an opportunity to keep Garoppolo @ least two more years if we franchise him and then deal either with top or diminished 41 year old or our next QB in Garoppolo and or a capable Jacoby Brissett
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Post by ccheetham0930 on Feb 18, 2017 14:27:42 GMT -5
Sign Butler and Hightower. Let Bennett go. Would love to keep him but there are a few free agent TEs and draft prospects that could replace him. Trade Jimmy G for picks. his value is too high to pass up. Get some picks from the Browns or Bears. Restructure Dola's contract. He wants to stay in NE. Im looking forward to see who we get in Free Agency and the draft. I always trust BB.
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Post by mattpicard on Feb 18, 2017 14:42:34 GMT -5
Lets put it this way, the drop off between JG and JB is almost nonexistent compared to the drop off between TB and JG. I disagree. This is kind of tacky, but here's the value I see from them in terms people on this board may be familiar with: TB12: 8 WAR JG: 3.5 WAR JB: 0.5 WAR JG would be a solid starting quarterback on an NFL team right now. Brady is the best. Brissett isn't yet close to being a solid starting quarterback. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 18, 2017 15:09:10 GMT -5
The dropoff from Brady to anyone else means no more championships so they should maximize Brady's chances to win while he's still playing. Trading Garrapolo is a no-brainer. Exactly, when it comes to next year anyway. I am not going to say they wont win any after Brady is gone but if he is hurt next year the Pats don't win one with JG at the helm. IMO So it should be a no brainer because they will get either a 1st or 2 picks that are almost as good as a 1st in value. |
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Post by jmei on Feb 18, 2017 15:26:32 GMT -5
Lets put it this way, the drop off between JG and JB is almost nonexistent compared to the drop off between TB and JG. I disagree. This is kind of tacky, but here's the value I see from them in terms people on this board may be familiar with: TB12: 8 WAR JG: 3.5 WAR JB: 0.5 WAR JG would be a solid starting quarterback on an NFL team right now. Brady is the best. Brissett isn't yet close to being a solid starting quarterback. You're much higher on Garoppolo than I am. I think that right now, he's at best an average QB (and probable a little worse than that) with upside. That's still super valuable, because slightly below-average QBs are really hard to get, and a team like the Broncos or Texans with just a slightly below-average QB would be a Super Bowl contender. But it's not a 3.5 WAR quarterback. To put it another way-- Garoppolo's backup value is mostly relevant if Brady only misses a few games and they need a guy to hold down the fort while Brady heals. If Brady is out for the year, Garoppolo is probably not good enough to lead the team through the playoffs anyways. In that context, I don't see a big enough gap between Garoppolo and Brissett to make it worth foregoing a trade package on the order of a late first-round pick this year. |
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Post by Coreno on Feb 18, 2017 16:07:34 GMT -5
I disagree. This is kind of tacky, but here's the value I see from them in terms people on this board may be familiar with: TB12: 8 WAR JG: 3.5 WAR JB: 0.5 WAR JG would be a solid starting quarterback on an NFL team right now. Brady is the best. Brissett isn't yet close to being a solid starting quarterback. You're much higher on Garoppolo than I am. I think that right now, he's at best an average QB (and probable a little worse than that) with upside. That's still super valuable, because slightly below-average QBs are really hard to get, and a team like the Broncos or Texans with just a slightly below-average QB would be a Super Bowl contender. But it's not a 3.5 WAR quarterback. To put it another way-- Garoppolo's backup value is mostly relevant if Brady only misses a few games and they need a guy to hold down the fort while Brady heals. If Brady is out for the year, Garoppolo is probably not good enough to lead the team through the playoffs anyways. In that context, I don't see a big enough gap between Garoppolo and Brissett to make it worth foregoing a trade package on the order of a late first-round pick this year. Exactly. And history tells us this is not something we need to make a priority. Brady has made all 16 starts every year since since NE traded Bledsoe, outside of the suspension and Bernard Pollard's first Patriots assassination attempt. He just doesn't miss time. I also don't know how fair it is to compare <2 games of Jimmy to Brissett's time, half of which he was playing with a relatively serious injury. Garoppolo's numbers have a lot to do with them rolling over that young MIA Defense in the first half of that game, while JB got thrown into action late, then had a short week to prepare for his 1st start against a pretty sturdy HOU D. |
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Post by mattpicard on Feb 18, 2017 16:08:37 GMT -5
I disagree. This is kind of tacky, but here's the value I see from them in terms people on this board may be familiar with: TB12: 8 WAR JG: 3.5 WAR JB: 0.5 WAR JG would be a solid starting quarterback on an NFL team right now. Brady is the best. Brissett isn't yet close to being a solid starting quarterback. You're much higher on Garoppolo than I am. I think that right now, he's at best an average QB (and probable a little worse than that) with upside. That's still super valuable, because slightly below-average QBs are really hard to get, and a team like the Broncos or Texans with just a slightly below-average QB would be a Super Bowl contender. But it's not a 3.5 WAR quarterback. To put it another way-- Garoppolo's backup value is mostly relevant if Brady only misses a few games and they need a guy to hold down the fort while Brady heals. If Brady is out for the year, Garoppolo is probably not good enough to lead the team through the playoffs anyways. In that context, I don't see a big enough gap between Garoppolo and Brissett to make it worth foregoing a trade package on the order of a late first-round pick this year. I view Garappolo as at least an average QB, plus the upside. Giving some more thought to those WAR numbers, I probably think of him as more of a 2.5-3.0 QB right now than a 3.5 one (and Brissett probably is closer to actual replacement-level than 0.5). I'm all for trading Garaoppolo for a late first-round pick. But I'm not sure I see the measure of current on field value between him and Brissett -- whether you think it's big or small -- as what makes such a trade worth it. If Garoppolo himself isn't good enough to carry this team during a prolonged Brady absence, then you might as well move him, irrespective of how Brissett compares. If you need a QB to just fill in briefly, it's not so much that Garappolo and Brissett aren't significantly different in value -- they are, in my opinion -- but rather we'll hopefully turn the pick into significant every-game value. That's what should help make the gap between Garappolo and Brissett bearable, but I don't see how you can say that gap isn't there. |
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Post by jmei on Feb 19, 2017 1:30:40 GMT -5
The average QP in the league is someone like Andy Dalton or Alex Smith. I certainly think Garoppolo could be that good at his peak, but I hesitate to call him that good right now.
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