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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 23, 2018 17:00:18 GMT -5
The last year I found data for is last years team. The Celtics were the top pick and role team in the league, with 3 of the top 4 players in the whole league. Smart was second, but Bradley was third in the whole league. Do I need to say more? Are you going to try and tell me Bradley is a good passer? Its the magic that is Brad Stevens. Thomas was 4th but by far the best at creating plays that ended in dunks. He could drive, draw defenders, leaving guys open to get easy dunks. Irving and Rozier can do this way better than Smart. I probably shouldn't have brought pick and roll into a lob discussion because its not really the same thing.
In the playoffs last year Rozier had more plays with Horford resulting in Dunks than Smart did.
2018 playoffs Rozier 26.3% assist rate, 7% turnover rate, 115 offensive rating. Smart 27.7% assist rate, 17.9% turnover rate, and a 94 offensive rating.
I'll take Rozier making the safe passes when creating,over Smart making the risky passes that make up most of his turnovers. Its my main problem with Smart, his increase in assists results in increased turnovers.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 23, 2018 17:06:05 GMT -5
I just had to comment on this because I think its so false. No one on the team created more turnovers on lob passes than Smart. How many lob passes did he throw out of bounds in the playoffs? Not that Smart can't do it, I just think Irving, Rozier and Smart are all about equal at doing it. Still remember Rozier trying to get it into Horford, but it was well guarded. So he gives it to Smart who throws a crazy bad lob into Horford that gets picked off. Its the part of Smarts game that drives me crazy. He can't create well, so he tries riskier passes to make an impact. He can sometimes pull it off, but he crestes a lot of turnovers. I'd pick Irving, Rozier, and then Smart if I wanted to list the best guys at the pick and role. Irving and Rozier can just create more, drawing in the D and getting guys open. See Jmie's answer. He is really good at the lob pass (pick and roll). Probably better than Rozier and might be better than even Irving. Did you read the articles? Pick and roll isn't the same as lobs. We litterally saw Smart making horrible risky lobs during the playoffs. Not that he can't do it, but he's not the best on this team at getting guys easy dunks. Irving, Rozier, then Smart.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 24, 2018 4:37:54 GMT -5
So Indiana and Dallas both drafted guards, I wonder if this will limit their interest in Smart. My guess is that it won’t affect Dallas whereas, Indiana may be slightly less inclined to use their money there. KCP is an unrestricted free agent so he could be a teams primary target if they are looking for a defensive guard.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jun 25, 2018 6:45:08 GMT -5
Lots of good thoughts on here about the C's draft pick.
I am very optimistic that the Celtics culture and coaching will bring out the best in this kid and he will be contributing this season. Stevens always does it and this kid has it in him, IMO. We shall see but he has the natural tools and defensive mindset to excel.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 25, 2018 9:27:12 GMT -5
AND....Danny kept his powder dry...
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 25, 2018 17:19:25 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 25, 2018 17:50:47 GMT -5
He is the new Larkin, I suppose.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 25, 2018 19:39:07 GMT -5
As long as he isn't missing practices or dogging games, I could live with anything else Williams brings. What if he associates with drug dealers - like Hanley? He would probably be released if he was (like Hanley), so it wouldn't matter.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 25, 2018 19:44:58 GMT -5
He is the new Larkin, I suppose. At this time thats not a bad bet. Though I'd rather Larkin. Might be Smart Insurance.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 25, 2018 20:49:58 GMT -5
He is the new Larkin, I suppose. At this time thats not a bad bet. Though I'd rather Larkin. Might be Smart Insurance. It’d be nice if someone had a current scouting report on him. I wonder if they are concerned about Larkins health and ability to stay healthy. He’s so small and he has to play hard and almost reckless to be at his most effective. I did like him last year though.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 25, 2018 21:45:38 GMT -5
At this time thats not a bad bet. Though I'd rather Larkin. Might be Smart Insurance. It’d be nice if someone had a current scouting report on him. I wonder if they are concerned about Larkins health and ability to stay healthy. He’s so small and he has to play hard and almost reckless to be at his most effective. I did like him last year though. Could just be salary. I fully expect this deal to be just like Theis's deal. 2 years minimum deal, 2nd year non-guaranteed. Reports were speculating Larkin could cost more or move on for a better chance at more playing time. I really don't think his scouting report has changed much. He can pass and shoot, but is a bad athlete, yet has a high basketball IQ. Those guys are a perfect fit for the Euro league. He won't be bad as end of the bench depth, I don't think he's Theis though either.
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Post by wskeleton76 on Jun 26, 2018 2:53:28 GMT -5
BRAD WANAMAKER is well known for his defense.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jun 26, 2018 9:57:20 GMT -5
President Stevens didn't win COTY, NBA is rigged and 18-19 is all about revenge.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 26, 2018 12:18:00 GMT -5
President Stevens didn't win COTY, NBA is rigged and 18-19 is all about revenge. The top 3 were all worthy winners. Casey, completely changed his style of play this year and it worked during the regular season. That’s impressive. Not taking away from Stevens just saying.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jun 26, 2018 12:58:37 GMT -5
President Stevens didn't win COTY, NBA is rigged and 18-19 is all about revenge. The top 3 were all worthy winners. Casey, completely changed his style of play this year and it worked during the regular season. That’s impressive. Not taking away from Stevens just saying. Stevens day will come after they win the whole thing next year!
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 26, 2018 13:50:43 GMT -5
The top 3 were all worthy winners. Casey, completely changed his style of play this year and it worked during the regular season. That’s impressive. Not taking away from Stevens just saying. Stevens day will come after they win the whole thing next year! I think it’s voted on after regular season. Also, if the team is healthy it will be hard for him to win.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 26, 2018 14:45:26 GMT -5
With reports saying Baynes is very likely to return. Only two other things to discuss.
Smart what do you do? Whats your limit in signing him?
Do you just hope he gets no offers and signs his QO? Do you sign him short-term like a two year deal or do you go full out giving him 4/5 years?
You are very limited in money if you assume Baynes basically gets the 5.2 he can get using his non-bird right over 2-3 years. Almost anything over his qualifying offer will take you over the luxury tax. Even if a team gave him a full mid-level deal it would be crazy close. Assuming the luxury tax is the red line I think it is. So for me unless your option is hope no one signs him, you would need to make a trade and Morris is the guy. I've always looked at it as Morris or Smart for this year. Looking at the market, after the top guys there isn't a ton of depth after Ariza in that next tier. Morris should have good value with that contract. Maybe that's Dannys plan keep Morris till the market dries up at that position, then make a move. While waiting to see what happens with Smart.
I do this because I'd like to keep Smart given the uncertainty of Irving and Rozier next year. I do feel he gets an offer. Also lets do right by Morris and get some future value for him. So I look at a bunch of contracts all starting at 2 years or more, for around 10 million. As much as I would like to keep him, thats always been about my limit. If he can get more good for him, enjoy your new team. I'd at least step to the table with options that were more than just sign your offer sheet. I get this feeling this is about 51% to 49% him staying compared to leaving.
Nader do you move on and look for an upgrade?
I say yes. Given this market I think you can get a very good player on the cheap.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 26, 2018 15:24:00 GMT -5
I'd be targeting teams like Portland. Has a big need, also has a couple trade exceptions. So they could use those and we clear his full salary. Without a team with trade exceptions or cap space you'll only be able to clear like 25% of his salary plus $100,000. So a little over a million.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 26, 2018 15:49:59 GMT -5
I agree staying under the tax this year is key so they can abuse it down the line. It’s too early to start going over the tax, next year it’s necessary and as fans we should expect it, but the trade off is expecting them to stay under this year.
If you need to dump Morris’s contract to keep Smart then I’m fine with that.
In an ideal world he’s back here this year at the qualifying offer then we give him the extension next year. If tax wasn’t an issue, I’d give him between 12-15m per over 4 years. I think it’s reasonable, he’s valuable in Stevens system. We play better with him around and we can’t use the money else where as we will already be in the tax anyways and you can’t get a replacement for what he brings. Plus, it gives you a contact that isn’t that bad that gives some beef for a trade down the road. This all because of the way they are set up with their stars and because they won’t have cap space. If it was a team giving him that contract into cap space I would call them dumb unless it was a very unique situation.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 26, 2018 20:20:11 GMT -5
Nader, Yabusele and Rozier/Irving are 3 guys right there unless there’s noticeable improvements out of the first two.
I think people need to realize the chances we see a first round pick from the Clippers the next two years aren’t that high. Entirely possible but I’d put odds at under 50%
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 27, 2018 7:18:42 GMT -5
Nader, Yabusele and Rozier/Irving are 3 guys right there unless there’s noticeable improvements out of the first two. I think people need to realize the chances we see a first round pick from the Clippers the next two years aren’t that high. Entirely possible but I’d put odds at under 50% I was thinking more of the expense relative to a comparable player in the draft rather than the literal roster spot. I like Smart but his cap hit seems like it might be prohibitive to the point where he's replaced by a cheaper draft pick, but I'm guessing as I don't really understand the cap and the exceptions. Just assuming that cheaper is better. From the website I'm looking at, we get Sacramento's pick (unprotected), Memphis' pick (protected 1-8), and the Clipper's pick that you mentioned (protected 1-14). So, it seems like if Smart is in fact too expensive that there will be ample opportunity to replace him. It’s really hard to find a guy who brings what Smart does, like extremely hard. Guys with his shooting percentage don’t often survive in the league let alone get talked about as a 12-15m player. Hes special in what he does. Great perimeter defender is easish to get but a guy who can switch to literally any position and not be abused from the perimeter is special. He can guard 5s. Not suggesting he can do it all game long, but when it comes down to it he makes those guys work, he makes it hard on them.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 27, 2018 7:40:44 GMT -5
Nader do you move on and look for an upgrade? I can go either way with this. He was loyal and gave us a draft and stash year, which he didn’t have to do after the way he did in summer league that first year. He also, had very brief flashes of being a back end of the roster rotational guy. I could see him being a second unit guy at his peak and he seems to work hard. I like guys like him who improve their games every year like he did at Iowa. That being said, his ceiling is very low, he’s older and despite very brief flashes hasn’t been impressive and he’s at a position where he won’t get anything but garbage minutes unless injuries strike hard. I would be fine with them trying to upgrade him. I think in all likelihood he’s here another year and if he doesn’t make a big step forward then he’s going to be a roster casualty next year from a new rookie. His contract is fully non-guaranteed next year. This year it’s only 450k dead money so it won’t stop them but they won’t want to replace him with more guaranteed money.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 27, 2018 10:08:04 GMT -5
Stevens day will come after they win the whole thing next year! I think it’s voted on after regular season. Also, if the team is healthy it will be hard for him to win. Nah. It could easily be a "last few years achievement award"-type situation. Although I was very surprised to see how rarely the Coach of the Year comes from the NBA champion - just three times since 1973: Pop twice and Phil Jackson with the Bulls once.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 27, 2018 14:11:29 GMT -5
Can’t link it but there’s a weird rule in the CBA that prevents the Celtics from trading for Anthony Davis with Kyrie on the roster so it’s impossible for the Celtics to have those two on the same team. It’s because they both signed extensions on their rookie deals and now qualify for the Supermax. You are only allowed to trade for one of those guys. They can trade for Leonard because he didn’t sign a rookie contract extension he signed as a restricted free agent.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 27, 2018 14:22:42 GMT -5
Irving can't get the super max because he was traded. His deal next year will be a max level deal, not super max.
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