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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 14, 2018 4:48:40 GMT -5
The results are clear backed up by stats like 40 extra passes a game because of Irving scoring within the offense. These are he comments of where you lose me. It’s the blame Kyrie for the issues and give no credit for the positives. They are passing more because they are playing more 2 point guard lineups. I just can’t get behind the logic that Brown and Hayward are taken off the court but it’s the guy or guys still on the court who were to blame for the other lineup not performing. This is all about your first post. You just think Smart replaced Brown and bam big change. I see Smart taking a ton of Irvings PG duties and Irving playing off the ball at an all-time high as the reason for more passes. So yea if you don't buy that, you won't get this. To touch on your first post I've given Irving credit for this change and heck the fact he looks so much better in that role. I wish the NBA had a time of possession stat for each player. You'd see what I mean. It's not the easiest thing to see watching games live. It's fairly subtle for each possession but by the end of the game it's rather pronounced. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 14, 2018 9:28:46 GMT -5
These are he comments of where you lose me. It’s the blame Kyrie for the issues and give no credit for the positives. They are passing more because they are playing more 2 point guard lineups. I just can’t get behind the logic that Brown and Hayward are taken off the court but it’s the guy or guys still on the court who were to blame for the other lineup not performing. This is all about your first post. You just think Smart replaced Brown and bam big change. I see Smart taking a ton of Irvings PG duties and Irving playing off the ball at an all-time high as the reason for more passes. So yea if you don't buy that, you won't get this. To touch on your first post I've given Irving credit for this change and heck the fact he looks so much better in that role. I wish the NBA had a time of possession stat for each player. You'd see what I mean. It's not the easiest thing to see watching games live. It's fairly subtle for each possession but by the end of the game it's rather pronounced. I think you’re just going too far calling him a SG. His usage is actually up since the change and his assist ratio and assist percentage are largely unchanged. Ones up and ones down a few fractions of a percent. Smarts numbers on the other hand are lower. I will try and track tonight may have to record the game then go back and do it once the wife’s sleeping. |
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Post by unitspin on Dec 14, 2018 9:49:12 GMT -5
Exactly smart is like Jbj easily replaceable and what he does good is overrated by the fans in this city. And what advanced stats are you talking about his per ranks him 7th or 8th on the team behind I believe rozier. So ya he is the 7th most valuable player on this team and fan boys act like he is carrying the team. Its kyries team and it will only go as far as he takes it. If smart was not on this team and semi took the bulk of his minutes there would be very little difference over the course of a season. In fact I'd wager semi would produce a hell of a lot more offense then smart while defending at a good clip. There is something with Celtics fans about over rating players in this city it's the only team in this city that does it. You have ppl saying in the offseason trade kyrie a nd keep Rozier. Then you have the giving crowder and IT up for kyrie was too much how are they doing right now. There was even people that said crowder was a better player then Hayward how is crowder doing? Smart is a role player no more if they had to move him to keep jaylen or Tatum Danny would not blink for a second. You want to see a guy that brings something to this team that doesn't show up on the stat sheets look at hortford guy does whatever the team need night in and out while still putting up numbers. If you want to build a guy up pick one like him not a replaceable bench guy.
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Post by texs31 on Dec 14, 2018 11:56:29 GMT -5
I'm 100% convinced we're being trolled at this point.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 14, 2018 12:50:09 GMT -5
Exactly smart is like Jbj easily replaceable and what he does good is overrated by the fans in this city. And what advanced stats are you talking about his per ranks him 7th or 8th on the team behind I believe rozier. So ya he is the 7th most valuable player on this team and fan boys act like he is carrying the team. Its kyries team and it will only go as far as he takes it. If smart was not on this team and semi took the bulk of his minutes there would be very little difference over the course of a season. In fact I'd wager semi would produce a hell of a lot more offense then smart while defending at a good clip. There is something with Celtics fans about over rating players in this city it's the only team in this city that does it. You have ppl saying in the offseason trade kyrie a nd keep Rozier. Then you have the giving crowder and IT up for kyrie was too much how are they doing right now. There was even people that said crowder was a better player then Hayward how is crowder doing? Smart is a role player no more if they had to move him to keep jaylen or Tatum Danny would not blink for a second. You want to see a guy that brings something to this team that doesn't show up on the stat sheets look at hortford guy does whatever the team need night in and out while still putting up numbers. If you want to build a guy up pick one like him not a replaceable bench guy. I’m obviously a huge Kyrie defender and obviously he’s more valuable than Smart as are other players but that doesn’t mean Smart isn’t a huge piece to the team. He’s 3rd on the team in Net rating behind Tatum and Kyrie for players playing at least 15 mins a night. His +/- is 5th on the team. He’s well ahead of Horford in both those btw. Smart is one of those guys who’s perfect for a team over the Salary cap because you’re right, you wouldn’t want him as one of your “big 3” guys and you don’t want him taking a big chunk of cap space blocking you from one of those guys. NBA salaries are just as much about WHEN they are given as they are about how big they are. Smart is a great glue guy; he’s so good at it that he’s not easily replaced. It’s not easy to find guys to do what he can do and accept that role. Guy is just as happy getting a deflection as he is scoring and that’s super rare in this league. Also, you’re selling him short as an offensive player because he’s not a good outside shooter. He’s very good getting to the hoop and he’s a very good free throw shooter and he can distribute the ball. I do truly appreciate you getting UMass to defend Smart tho. After last years discussions it’s refreshing. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 14, 2018 13:38:10 GMT -5
This is all about your first post. You just think Smart replaced Brown and bam big change. I see Smart taking a ton of Irvings PG duties and Irving playing off the ball at an all-time high as the reason for more passes. So yea if you don't buy that, you won't get this. To touch on your first post I've given Irving credit for this change and heck the fact he looks so much better in that role. I wish the NBA had a time of possession stat for each player. You'd see what I mean. It's not the easiest thing to see watching games live. It's fairly subtle for each possession but by the end of the game it's rather pronounced. I think you’re just going too far calling him a SG. His usage is actually up since the change and his assist ratio and assist percentage are largely unchanged. Ones up and ones down a few fractions of a percent. Smarts numbers on the other hand are lower. I will try and track tonight may have to record the game then go back and do it once the wife’s sleeping. Given what I've seen that makes total sense Irvings usage rate increases and Smart decreases. That's what you would expect to see. That isn't the amount of time a player has his hands on the ball though. I'd expect the opposite on that, Smart increasing, Irving decreasing. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 14, 2018 13:47:54 GMT -5
www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/even-kyrie-cant-stop-watching-marcus-smart-highlightsSome grumbled when the Celtics signed Smart to a four-year, $52 million extension this summer. Smart had found a cool market as a restricted free agent but Boston clearly wasn’t willing to let him play his way into a big payday from somebody else next summer. Boston signed Smart to a deal that, at an average value of $13 million, will almost certainly seem like a bargain as salaries continue to inflate.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 14, 2018 13:56:25 GMT -5
There’s a rumor that Alec Burks is of interest to the Celtics... that’s odd but interesting.
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Post by unitspin on Dec 14, 2018 14:00:41 GMT -5
I never said smart was not a valuable piece to the team just sick of hearing all the green teamers build him into something he is not. He is mearly a bench player nothing more makes a big play every 5 games and guys act like he's an mvp. He is what he is a good 7th or 8th player on this team. If you removed anyone of those 7 players we will call it bcs I put him ahead of rozier even though most metrics do not agree and have him 8th on the team, it would make a bigger impact then losing smart. Semi could fill that roll just fine. Guys like tatum, brown, Morris, hortford, kyrie, and gordon are more valuable to this team, I'm sorry if people do not like hearing it but it's truth. There is not a group of stats you can piece together that will show he is more valuable than those players. In fact you want to see impact remove Morris from this current lineup and see how the team fares with the injuries they are dealing with.
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 14, 2018 14:03:52 GMT -5
There’s a rumor that Alec Burks is of interest to the Celtics... that’s odd but interesting. Hard pass for me. We already have too many wings and he doesn't offer anything that we're missing. If we're not talking superstar here but role player, I'd love to get a solid shooting big like Dario Saric. A stretch 4-5 that isn't terrible with the ball. Like Dario Saric, can we just get him already? |
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Post by texs31 on Dec 14, 2018 14:47:47 GMT -5
I will stand next to Danny on this hill no matter what:
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,048
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Post by mobaz on Dec 14, 2018 15:34:03 GMT -5
There’s a rumor that Alec Burks is of interest to the Celtics... that’s odd but interesting. Hard pass for me. We already have too many wings and he doesn't offer anything that we're missing. If we're not talking superstar here but role player, I'd love to get a solid shooting big like Dario Saric. A stretch 4-5 that isn't terrible with the ball. Like Dario Saric, can we just get him already? I hoped the Celtics could get Embiid and Saric in that draft and then Philly went and got each 3 picks earlier. Saric would be a solid fit on this team. I think he can't be traded again till close to the deadline since he was already traded this year. Is that a thing? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 14, 2018 15:53:56 GMT -5
Lol that is about the dumbest thing ever considering the way the NBA is today. Everyone switching like crazy, you normally don't guard just one player or position.
For Irving your saying he's a SG based on the position he defends. Last game he was on Beal a lot, so that makes him a SG. Yet Wall was defending Irving, so does that make him a SG? It makes like zero sense, people switch on D, hide guys etc.
Pg is the guy that runs the offense, be it LeBron, Harden, Pippen, Irving, Smart, or Rozier. Wall is the PG because he runs the offense not because of who he guards.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 14, 2018 16:05:57 GMT -5
I never said smart was not a valuable piece to the team just sick of hearing all the green teamers build him into something he is not. He is mearly a bench player nothing more makes a big play every 5 games and guys act like he's an mvp. He is what he is a good 7th or 8th player on this team. If you removed anyone of those 7 players we will call it bcs I put him ahead of rozier even though most metrics do not agree and have him 8th on the team, it would make a bigger impact then losing smart. Semi could fill that roll just fine. Guys like tatum, brown, Morris, hortford, kyrie, and gordon are more valuable to this team, I'm sorry if people do not like hearing it but it's truth. There is not a group of stats you can piece together that will show he is more valuable than those players. In fact you want to see impact remove Morris from this current lineup and see how the team fares with the injuries they are dealing with. Based off of what? You talk about speaking the truth, yet this just all sounds like your opinion. What numbers and stats show Smart 7th or 8th? What shows Morris and Hayward are more valuable? If it's the truth you should have no problem backing it up with numbers and stats. Is this Jmei? Haven't heard anything from him and now this. This feels like we are getting trolled hard. Who created a second account ? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 14, 2018 16:15:36 GMT -5
Burks get to the FT line, he would have been tops on the team till Irvings big game. He's a natural SG, do we have one of those? At the sametime he makes big money and would only seem to interest us if he's bought out, which could be a while. If he cost nothing I'd make him the 15th man, the guy can score.
Yes Saric can be traded again right before the deadline.
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Post by unitspin on Dec 14, 2018 22:30:57 GMT -5
I never said smart was not a valuable piece to the team just sick of hearing all the green teamers build him into something he is not. He is mearly a bench player nothing more makes a big play every 5 games and guys act like he's an mvp. He is what he is a good 7th or 8th player on this team. If you removed anyone of those 7 players we will call it bcs I put him ahead of rozier even though most metrics do not agree and have him 8th on the team, it would make a bigger impact then losing smart. Semi could fill that roll just fine. Guys like tatum, brown, Morris, hortford, kyrie, and gordon are more valuable to this team, I'm sorry if people do not like hearing it but it's truth. There is not a group of stats you can piece together that will show he is more valuable than those players. In fact you want to see impact remove Morris from this current lineup and see how the team fares with the injuries they are dealing with. Based off of what? You talk about speaking the truth, yet this just all sounds like your opinion. What numbers and stats show Smart 7th or 8th? What shows Morris and Hayward are more valuable? If it's the truth you should have no problem backing it up with numbers and stats. Is this Jmei? Haven't heard anything from him and now this. This feels like we are getting trolled hard. Who created a second account ? Any stats that prove smart is more then a bench player or are you a troll?? |
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 14, 2018 23:05:30 GMT -5
Yes Saric can be traded again right before the deadline. Then man I really wish Danny would get him. Theis is BALLING right now and just had another great game tonight, Saric would actually complement him really well. You have two do it all athletic(ish) bigs who can shoot the three to throw at fools on top of everyone else. He would be the ultimate situational guy on the roster and someone to take over the Morris role next season since he has another cheap year on his deal. And besides, everyone here probably knows by now that I'm crazy for the recent wave of athletic euro imports. So many great players coming over and Saric is definitely in that group. I agree that Burks as a buyout guy wouldn't be bad and we don't have someone his size on the roster I believe, you're right about that. I still don't like him a lot, he shoots too much. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 14, 2018 23:39:04 GMT -5
Based off of what? You talk about speaking the truth, yet this just all sounds like your opinion. What numbers and stats show Smart 7th or 8th? What shows Morris and Hayward are more valuable? If it's the truth you should have no problem backing it up with numbers and stats. Is this Jmei? Haven't heard anything from him and now this. This feels like we are getting trolled hard. Who created a second account ? Any stats that prove smart is more then a bench player or are you a troll?? Do you get what that stat even is? It's just a counting stat that combines everything points rebounds assists steals etc. www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpmSmart ranks 34th in the whole NBA in Real Plus Minus. 11th among PGs and has the best defensive real plus minus of all point guards. Look at the list, the stars are at the top. Smart might not get you a ton of counting stats but he makes a big impact. Your stat only shows counting stats, mine shows the impact Smart has on the boxscore and his overall impact on the game. Smart drives me crazy, takes bad shots, creates a lot of turnovers because he has to make risky passes and has shown very little improvement on the offensive end. At the same time you can't dismiss his impact overall. This is by far the best Smart we have ever seen. The start of the last game they showed how Smart caused like 9 turnovers in the last game. Whole highlight reel type crap. The team takes off after he becomes a starter. Leading the league in points per game while he's starting over an 8 game win streak and we have injury after injury. You pick now to talk crap about Smart? Using simple counting stats? I'm sorry but that screams troll. I'm sorry if your not, but this board is heavy into advanced stats. There are a bunch of them for the NBA, which are like war for baseball. So when you start talking about points and restricted free agent offers we all think your trolling us. It's like judging a pitcher by ERA only. Nevermind the Celtics have like 8 starting level players. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 14, 2018 23:58:38 GMT -5
Yes Saric can be traded again right before the deadline. Then man I really wish Danny would get him. Theis is BALLING right now and just had another great game tonight, Saric would actually complement him really well. You have two do it all athletic(ish) bigs who can shoot the three to throw at fools on top of everyone else. He would be the ultimate situational guy on the roster and someone to take over the Morris role next season since he has another cheap year on his deal. And besides, everyone here probably knows by now that I'm crazy for the recent wave of athletic euro imports. So many great players coming over and Saric is definitely in that group. I agree that Burks as a buyout guy wouldn't be bad and we don't have someone his size on the roster I believe, you're right about that. I still don't like him a lot, he shoots too much. I'm really against adding anyone that could play big minutes, because we are just starting to figure out that crap. Took forever to get this team to gel. He's not a bad fit, but Minny even in second to last place in the West is 2.5 games out of the 8th seed. Lets assume they drop out, what do you trade them? They want to win next year also, he's under contract plus his restricted year. After what I've seen with Williams he's a guy I want to see play more. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 15, 2018 9:36:37 GMT -5
I do like the run Williams is getting and I want it to continue. It’s a good time to point out he was a minus 14 last night and a minus 5 the night prior. He was a plus 14 in NOLA tho. I only bring this up because people might see his blocks and automatically think the defense is better with him in the game. It’s not, but it will be in the long run if he improves at the nuances of team defense. Scal does a good job of pointing out when he gets caught in between challenging the guy at the point of attack or staying back and letting him come to him. This only comes with experience so it’s not a knock per se. By all accounts he’s been committed to working hard.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 15, 2018 9:38:49 GMT -5
I got home late from the hospital last night so wasn’t able to chart the game and didn’t have it set to record. I watched a good chunk of the game from the end of the first to the end.
Hayward is looking better and better.
Also, love how efficient they are from the line. That’s a key to winning close games, especially in the playoffs.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 15, 2018 10:10:28 GMT -5
Game started out as Smart at PG, even for the tip. He was the guy you tip it to, with Irving on the circle. Smart got the first 2 out of bounds balls. There weren't manny for a while because the Hawks couldn't score. Irving got red hot, then demanded the ball. Then a stretch of just Irving for a few minutes then Rozier. Then you had Rozier, Irving, and Smart playing together. Mostly Rozier at PG. He went out and it was Smart. Hawks made run and Irving told Smart I got this and took over for like the last 3 minutes.
Irving played more SG than PG in the first half when playing with Smart and Rozier. Smart didn't just replace Brown he took over a large amount of Irvings PG duties. The result is Irving playing a lot more off the ball and he looks very good doing it.
It does get a little awkward when the three of them play, because a couple plays they would all go back for the ball. Yet Irving a couple times demanded it, got and then gave it to Smart or Rozier waiting for it.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 15, 2018 10:24:08 GMT -5
I do like the run Williams is getting and I want it to continue. It’s a good time to point out he was a minus 14 last night and a minus 5 the night prior. He was a plus 14 in NOLA tho. I only bring this up because people might see his blocks and automatically think the defense is better with him in the game. It’s not, but it will be in the long run if he improves at the nuances of team defense. Scal does a good job of pointing out when he gets caught in between challenging the guy at the point of attack or staying back and letting him come to him. This only comes with experience so it’s not a knock per se. By all accounts he’s been committed to working hard. He needs to learn how to get physical. Far from a finished product, but the talent is clearly there to be be a rebounding shot blocking monster and great defensive player. Stevens has had nothing but good things to say about him and how hard he works. Given his limited playing time I couldn't have asked for more. He's very active and has a very good motor, which is the important thing. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 15, 2018 11:13:34 GMT -5
I'm really against adding anyone that could play big minutes, because we are just starting to figure out that crap. Took forever to get this team to gel. He's not a bad fit, but Minny even in second to last place in the West is 2.5 games out of the 8th seed. Lets assume they drop out, what do you trade them? They want to win next year also, he's under contract plus his restricted year. After what I've seen with Williams he's a guy I want to see play more. It depends on Horford's health IMO, he missed some games and looked very slow in others so maybe he's dealing with something that could bother him for the season. But yeah you're right, there's a logjam as it is and adding another guy would further those issues. I'd love to get him after the season as a replacement for Morris if we don't bring him back and don't feel good about relying more on Brown or Hayward. Not sure why Minny would move him, I keep forgetting that team isn't rebuilding. They really should though. |
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Post by unitspin on Dec 15, 2018 12:07:08 GMT -5
Do you get what that stat even is? It's just a counting stat that combines everything points rebounds assists steals etc. www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpmSmart ranks 34th in the whole NBA in Real Plus Minus. 11th among PGs and has the best defensive real plus minus of all point guards. Look at the list, the stars are at the top. Smart might not get you a ton of counting stats but he makes a big impact. Your stat only shows counting stats, mine shows the impact Smart has on the boxscore and his overall impact on the game. Smart drives me crazy, takes bad shots, creates a lot of turnovers because he has to make risky passes and has shown very little improvement on the offensive end. At the same time you can't dismiss his impact overall. This is by far the best Smart we have ever seen. The start of the last game they showed how Smart caused like 9 turnovers in the last game. Whole highlight reel type crap. The team takes off after he becomes a starter. Leading the league in points per game while he's starting over an 8 game win streak and we have injury after injury. You pick now to talk crap about Smart? Using simple counting stats? I'm sorry but that screams troll. I'm sorry if your not, but this board is heavy into advanced stats. There are a bunch of them for the NBA, which are like war for baseball. So when you start talking about points and restricted free agent offers we all think your trolling us. It's like judging a pitcher by ERA only. Nevermind the Celtics have like 8 starting level players. Plus and minus for smart is a skewed stat because for the bulk of the season he plays against second line players. And the stat i provided incorporates everything a player contributes to game prob one of the best stat to represent the overall impact of a player on a game. Smart scored zero points on the floor last night in 27 minutes. Last time i checked a game is decided on pts scored unless they recently changed that. Smarts game last night further proves he is nothing more then a role player. Does not make him a bad player he is what he is a role player this whole back and forth was started because people are claiming him as the most important player on the team you would never hear someone claim that about jbj. He is widely overrated by celtics fans and celtics fans only. Smart has never even made the all defensive team so your push of his defensive prowess is not shared by anyone outside of boston. And comparing that stat to an era shows your argument is rubbish, era is based off of two numbers innings and runs scored. The espn stat like per incorporates the most impactful stats in the game of basketball and rates a player on his impact to the game it is the war of basketball. We can use per if you would like would not change anything on making smart seem any more valuable to the celts. Your going to have to show better stats then the useless plus minus stat. |
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