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Post by soxfansince67 on Jan 2, 2019 22:35:55 GMT -5
Fascinating post game discussion on ESPN...this is 2 teams...one when Kyrie plays, a different one when he doesn't. The Stevens system is active without Kyrie, the Kyrie system when he does...fascinating conundrum.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 2, 2019 22:56:10 GMT -5
Fascinating post game discussion on ESPN...this is 2 teams...one when Kyrie plays, a different one when he doesn't. The Stevens system is active without Kyrie, the Kyrie system when he does...fascinating conundrum. To be fair, Hayward largely played the Kyrie role tonight as he went one on one a lot. |
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jan 2, 2019 23:22:35 GMT -5
Fascinating post game discussion on ESPN...this is 2 teams...one when Kyrie plays, a different one when he doesn't. The Stevens system is active without Kyrie, the Kyrie system when he does...fascinating conundrum. To be fair, Hayward largely played the Kyrie role tonight as he went one on one a lot. Not quite, to my eyes - far less stopping the tempo with long dribbles - he got himself into some great shooting positions quickly. I love Kyrie as a player...but his impact on this team is kind of odd right now. And I was pretty surprised at how "in between" Tatum looked tonight (and often this year) - youth showing, I suspect. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 2, 2019 23:42:39 GMT -5
Yea the way Hayward and Irving score is very different. Hayward scored within the offense by taking what the defense gave him. I can't remember a single clear out a side and let him work type play all game.
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Post by bcpatsox18 on Jan 3, 2019 1:47:51 GMT -5
I’m biased because I never liked kyrie, mostly as a person but also as a player. He’s too concerned with being great himself that he doesn’t care about making the team around him better. He’s lebron 2.0. I loved Isaiah, and If he stayed healthy I’d still rather have him than kyrie. But since he’s all we have now, he needs to accept that to be a champion again he needs to listen to brad, understand that the whole can be better than the sum of its parts. The Celtics have the talent and parts to beat the warriors, but I seriously doubt that with kyrie as the leader they’ll ever get there. I think that for them to really be a contender for the championship they need Hayward or Tatum to step up and take the reigns of the team, because kyrie is much better as a Robin than a superman
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 3, 2019 6:55:57 GMT -5
The reactions are great here. Best a bad Minnesota team at home without Kyrie and people think they are better without him again. Classic. They’ve been playing this way since late November.
Hayward had another good game so that’s nice, hopefully there isn’t a long time between them like the last time.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 3, 2019 8:35:23 GMT -5
Not quite, to my eyes - far less stopping the tempo with long dribbles - he got himself into some great shooting positions quickly. I love Kyrie as a player...but his impact on this team is kind of odd right now. And I was pretty surprised at how "in between" Tatum looked tonight (and often this year) - youth showing, I suspect. Yeah I agree they're different players. I still don't think you can look at last night game and say that this team is better without an alpha scorer. If Hayward doesn't put them on his back during chunks of it they probably lose it since everyone forgot that hey you can double KAT. Not to mention the general atrocity that was the Wolves second quarter really helped as well. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 3, 2019 9:23:38 GMT -5
Not quite, to my eyes - far less stopping the tempo with long dribbles - he got himself into some great shooting positions quickly. I love Kyrie as a player...but his impact on this team is kind of odd right now. And I was pretty surprised at how "in between" Tatum looked tonight (and often this year) - youth showing, I suspect. Yeah I agree they're different players. I still don't think you can look at last night game and say that this team is better without an alpha scorer. If Hayward doesn't put them on his back during chunks of it they probably lose it since everyone forgot that hey you can double KAT. Not to mention the general atrocity that was the Wolves second quarter really helped as well. You can’t win an NBA title without a go to scorer; the last team to do it was the Pistons and that was both a different NBA and there’s no Ben Wallace’s anymore |
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 3, 2019 10:58:28 GMT -5
You can’t win an NBA title without a go to scorer; the last team to do it was the Pistons and that was both a different NBA and there’s no Ben Wallace’s anymore Absolutely and we saw that last night when the Wolves upped the pressure on defense and shots were tough to come by. Hayward happened and that opened up shots for others. You need a guy that keeps the defense honest otherwise you have a lot of sideway passes and Tatum trying to beat a perfectly positioned defense off the dribble. This discussion is so weird because they play team ball with Kyrie as well. Yeah he goes one on one a lot but he's also a highly effective scorer. It's not like we're playing Steve Francis out there. And they have improved a lot on offense. They're a top 10 unit out there. Consistency and lack of size are the issue, not how they run their offense. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 3, 2019 15:20:41 GMT -5
Playing around with trades; I’m a little unsure of the offseason rules on trades. Can Rozier even be part of an offseason trade for Anthony Davis? I don’t think sign and trades are possible in the Celtics cap situation and I’m not sure they could package him in a sign and trade. Assuming he can’t be a trade asset maybe they can deal him now for a player who could be.
A Saric and Jones for Rozier will work once Saric is eligible to be traded after January 11. Gets us a stretch 4 who can rebound and a backup point guard.
Orrr what about Rozier for Sabonis? He doesn’t have the range Stevens likes for his bigs, but he’s a rebounder, good scorer and strong defender. Indiana may not have any interest in acquiring Rozier for the long term if they really like Holiday but it’d be an interesting deal for the C’s. Trade fodder for Davis of just a long term Horford replacement.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 3, 2019 18:08:26 GMT -5
www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/05/why-nba-sign-and-trades-are-rare.htmlYes you can, but its going to be really hard, likely a three team type trade. It's likely easier to just assume no you can't because of how hard it will be. Its why you don't see them much anymore. I wouldn't do the Saric trade. I like Don's two guys because they add low post scoring, something we lack. Nevermind Saric can't guard the guys that are currently killing us. He does fit our team, I could see Minny wanting to make a deal like that. So it makes sense on a bunch of levels. He can play with Horford, yet he just loves to chuck up threes. I think we shoot enough three point shots as it is. Unless you think he's got a bunch of unlocked potential down low that guys like Embiid and KAT don't allow him to show. Sabonis is having a monster year, like All-Star type year. Yea sign me up, yet no way the Pacers do that. He might be their best player this year. His numbers are off the charts. Yet he's much more of the type of player I want. Much more of a true old school down low type of big.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 4, 2019 15:37:09 GMT -5
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Post by philarhody on Jan 4, 2019 20:28:15 GMT -5
There are some silly posts floating around here. The Pacers are not trading Sabonis for Rozier, who is a free agent at the end of the year. Not only is Rozier not as good a player as Sabonis, but the Pacers have a much better version in Victor Oladipo.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jan 4, 2019 21:53:59 GMT -5
I like the way the team woke up and responded when Dallas got back within 1. Nice games by Rozier, Smart, Tatum, Brown, Horford tonight...just got to hold steady for another quarter. Hayward too....with Irving and Morris out, great effort
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Post by sarasoxer on Jan 4, 2019 22:54:49 GMT -5
Celtic's energy, ball movement and tenacity reminded me of last year's team. This game was fun to watch. They were flying. They missed a lot of bunnies or the victory margin could have been a lot higher.
Thoughts
What's with Smart's 3 point shooting? He's actually becoming a threat.
Glad to see Tatum more assertive offensively but he still takes a lot of low % fadeaways. He is not Kobe.
Hayward plays within himself so well letting the game come to him and is a great anticipator/passer.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 4, 2019 23:01:16 GMT -5
Clear as day that team plays different with and without Irving. I will admit he's made some progress, yet he has a ways to go. End goal still has to be get Irving to play this style, not Irving trying to get everyone to play his style.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 4, 2019 23:15:01 GMT -5
Clear as day that team plays different with and without Irving. I will admit he's made some progress, yet he has a ways to go. End goal still has to be get Irving to play this style, not Irving trying to get everyone to play his style. I didn't watch the game so I can't comment on it, but it looks like Horford and Hayward each had 8 assists. I think this was the plan with Kyrie all along, use both these guys as complimentary playmakers. Health issues probably kept this vision from being a thing but honestly I doubt Stevens turns into Ty Lue whenever Kyrie is in the line-up. He can get that system down. Jaylen quietly turning his season around is also very encouraging. He was pretty good in the first half of the Wolves game before being terrible in the second half. I'm still a believer but damn did it ever get hard to see it. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 5, 2019 0:45:32 GMT -5
Don the problem is Irving dominating the ball so much won't allow the team to play the way they did tonight with Horford and Hayward getting 8 assists each and Rozier having 7 assists. They had 35 assist on 42 made shots, at one point it was 35 on 38 makes before the reserves came in to end the game. Those guys can only play those roles if Irving plays our way, not his way.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,862
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Post by wcp3 on Jan 5, 2019 7:56:34 GMT -5
The Kyrie is bad for the team narrative is very talk radio-esque.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 5, 2019 8:01:20 GMT -5
Minnesota 5-15 and Dallas 3-17 on the road.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 5, 2019 8:55:58 GMT -5
113-104 loss and 114-93 win
One the team was 100% healthy, the other the team was missing Irving, Morris, Baynes, Williams and Horford was on a minute restriction.
Irving is a great player yet he can hurt this team when he plays anti Celtic Basketball. This isn't last year. This isn't just sport radio talk. This is a crap load of people, announcers, former players, former coaches, Boston sports writers, and guys like Celtic Legend Paul Pierce. Heck our own coach has taken the ball out of his hands because he sees it. Unlike last year, everyone now sees exactly what I've been saying for a year. Acting like it's not happening is just hiding from the facts. Come on now major sports broadcasters are having discussions about it after games. This isn't Felger and Mazz only type crap.
It doesn't mean Irving isn't good, just he needs to play more team ball and he has been getting better. It's just Irvings natural way of playing is the anti Celtic way, its not what Stevens wants from our offense. It's not what is going to make this team reach its full potential. We don't play like Houston, our players don't fit that style of iso Basketball besides Irving.
It's like no one remembers the big three and how they changed and because of that became a great team.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 5, 2019 9:17:34 GMT -5
113-104 loss and 114-93 win Dallas 15-3 at home 3-17 on the road. Boston 13-5 at home 10-10 on the road. But yea... Kyrie |
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Post by sarasoxer on Jan 5, 2019 9:24:56 GMT -5
Minnesota 5-15 and Dallas 3-17 on the road. ....It wasn't the opponent's level that made last night an exciting ..for the fans..win. It was the almost frenzied way the Celtics played. The batteries were juiced. On Kyrie, there were several in game camera shots of him seemingly (to me) 'taking it in' watching the team perform as one. He had a pensive look. Again I love the way Hayward sees the floor and anticipates. He is so unselfish too. The past 2 games he looked quicker as well. He is in the mold of the classic Celtic. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 5, 2019 9:56:21 GMT -5
If you watched the game there was a zero percent chance they move the ball like they did if Irving was playing. It was a beautiful thing to watch. Crazy unselfish team basketball, reminded me of last years playoffs. Everyone touching the ball, making the extra pass, everyone getting their chance. All without our top two scorers, but yea it only happened because we played at home. Oh wait we've lost at home with Irving to the Magic, Jazz, Knicks, and Suns.
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,862
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Post by wcp3 on Jan 5, 2019 11:01:35 GMT -5
I think there’s some validity to the claim that the ball stops moving a bit when Kyrie is on the floor, but that doesn’t explain the incompetence of so many individual players on the team for large stretches of this season. It’s oversimplifying things to say that Kyrie being out is the reason they’re playing better.
This team doesn’t have any shot at being a title contender if Kyrie isn’t healthy. They probably don’t have much of a shot at being one this year even if he is healthy, but you need top-tier talent to win championships in this league, and Kyrie is certainly that.
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