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Post by soxfansince67 on Jan 14, 2019 22:17:47 GMT -5
If you had watched.....you would have gone blind. Horrible. Hayward is nowhere near the player he once was. Rozier .... Woof. Sounds ghastly...what are reasonable answers to this increasing mess? One figures something's gotta give ..
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 14, 2019 22:19:48 GMT -5
Brad Stevens is getting completely exposed as a coach this year. Just incompetence at the highest degree. Hayward and Horford, the 2 max players that were available, were completely terrible. Rozier was so unbelievably bad I thought Stevens would murder him in that very early timeout. Morris was also a non factor. And it's bad out there, it's just bad. Where's all the talent?
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,862
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Post by wcp3 on Jan 14, 2019 22:23:02 GMT -5
Brad Stevens is getting completely exposed as a coach this year. Just incompetence at the highest degree. Hayward and Horford, the 2 max players that were available, were completely terrible. Rozier was so unbelievably bad I thought Stevens would murder him in that very early timeout. Morris was also a non factor. And it's bad out there, it's just bad. Where's all the talent? True, I mean, when you’re playing a loaded roster like Brooklyn there’s only so much you can do. (Also, what’s the excuse for the other 42 games?)
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 14, 2019 22:34:44 GMT -5
True, I mean, when you’re playing a loaded roster like Brooklyn there’s only so much you can do. (Also, what’s the excuse for the other 42 games?) Yeah the Nets are pretty mediocre, but look around man, who's playing well consistently? Tatum was amazing tonight, but he had a lot of rough games. Rozier is unplayable right now, so was Brown for most of the season. Horford is old, slow, injured and a goddamn small baller. Morris was pretty good but should we really expect Marcus Morris to put up Steve Nash numbers for a full season? Hayward looks like a dude you would blaze past at the local Y. Irving missed some games and didn't play team ball in others (I'm joking, calm down umass). Yabusele is packing an ass that's bigger than Alexis Texas. Smart? Theis? Wanamaker? Really? And we're waiting for Baynes to be healthy to turn things around. Baynes is our savior? Really?Not saying Stevens has done a good job, he's been bad and I swear to god his rotations and lack of timeouts during huge runs kill me sometimes. But based Popovich couldn't save this team as they're playing right now. It doesn't look like a scheme thing, it looks like a roster thing. That elite talent just doesn't look like it's there.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jan 14, 2019 23:52:58 GMT -5
Marcus Morris tweet after the game
"Marcus Morris: "It’s tough to win four straight and then lose three straight. I’d be lying if I said we knew our identity."
Irving's public attacking the young players a few days ago
The Brown/Morris "bump"
Stevens seems to have lost control of the team (has he had any in the first place???).
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Post by sarasoxer on Jan 15, 2019 7:37:01 GMT -5
Really, I like Stevens. The last several years he was "Knighted", his virtues extolled and some claimed to have seen him walk on water. He has a long history of success. Many thought the team over-achieved the past few years due to Stevens' coaching brilliance, freshness and player sacrifice/buy-in. The guy didn't become a bum overnight despite our frustration with the record and below expectation performance of many players. The fact is, the players may have been over-rated, the freshness worn off.
Who'd a thunk the league laughing stock Nets would be thumping our guys? Wake up call.
Maybe we are more than Anthony Davis away. Maybe we should keep our draft picks or bundle them to move up.
Prediction is: Danny will ride in on his white horse and save the fair maiden.
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mobaz
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Posts: 3,048
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Post by mobaz on Jan 15, 2019 9:15:00 GMT -5
I think prior to the start of last season, there was a subtle undercurrent that Kyrie/Horford/Hayward might not be enough of a big three, but it wasn't a common opinion because the team overachieved the year before and the young guys looked SO precocious. In retrospect it should have been a bigger question to start this era, and with Hayward's injury and Horford's normal aging it's a problem.
Time to tear it down and rebuild. Obviously Hayward and Horford can no longer perform up to max player standards, and if they are clogging the cap and the young guys are just normal young players, the timelines no longer line up. Right now the team is somehow playing less than the sum of its parts every night.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 15, 2019 10:17:58 GMT -5
I think prior to the start of last season, there was a subtle undercurrent that Kyrie/Horford/Hayward might not be enough of a big three, but it wasn't a common opinion because the team overachieved the year before and the young guys looked SO precocious. In retrospect it should have been a bigger question to start this era, and with Hayward's injury and Horford's normal aging it's a problem. Time to tear it down and rebuild. Obviously Hayward and Horford can no longer perform up to max player standards, and if they are clogging the cap and the young guys are just normal young players, the timelines no longer line up. Right now the team is somehow playing less than the sum of its parts every night. What do you consider tearing it down? Before, I jump on you for this take, I want to clarify if you truly mean tear it down or if you’re being ridiculously over exaggerated on what you mean.
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mobaz
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Posts: 3,048
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Post by mobaz on Jan 15, 2019 11:24:33 GMT -5
Yes, exaggerating some, but it doesn't seem like a core of Kyrie/Hayward/Horford is working now, and given where Horford is at career-wise and Hayward's ineffectiveness, how long do we keep throwing them out there? Brown and Tatum have slowed progress as well. I basically mean we thought we had a 4-year window with this crew, two years are gone and the next two don't look promising. Basically I think Danny should start now building the team as if Horford and Hayward are no longer building blocks. What that means,
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jan 15, 2019 11:35:03 GMT -5
Interesting Ainge quote just posted on NESN nesn.com/2019/01/celtics-need-to-make-a-trade-why-danny-ainge-isnt-so-sure-about-that/“I try not to get too emotional with a hot streak or a cold streak, and just look at what our team is,” Ainge said, per Himmelsbach. “How our team has played this year, I really haven’t been too surprised with anything, the good and the bad. You could anticipate both of those things happening. So, I’m not surprised. I feel like our team is in a good place and playing well. But I like the path they’re headed in.”
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 15, 2019 11:43:35 GMT -5
Yes, exaggerating some, but it doesn't seem like a core of Kyrie/Hayward/Horford is working now, and given where Horford is at career-wise and Hayward's ineffectiveness, how long do we keep throwing them out there? Brown and Tatum have slowed progress as well. I basically mean we thought we had a 4-year window with this crew, two years are gone and the next two don't look promising. Basically I think Danny should start now building the team as if Horford and Hayward are no longer building blocks. What that means, Hayward could definitely still come around, but they have some good backup plans in case he doesn't in Brown and Tatum. They have no backup for Horford. If he proves to be washed up, they have a gigantic hole at the 4/5. I get it that Danny is being patient and rational, but this team has needed a legit big for a few years and he hasn't done anything to address that. It's frustrating.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 15, 2019 12:26:08 GMT -5
Color me confused at the reaction to last nights game. Almost no difference in the Magic, Heat, or Nets this year. Nets aren't the crappy crappy team they have been for years. The team scored 99, 103, and 102 points the last three games. Yet they didn't have Irving or Smart last game, shoot 40% from the field and got out rebounded by 14. Yet two of the three players that keep getting called out went off and had very good games. 34 for Tatum, 22 for Brown with both of them shooting 50% or better.
It seems clear they rushed Horford back because they were losing games and he needs rest. If he was 100% there wouldn't be a minute restriction. The bigger question is will he be able to get to 100% this year. I just can't buy Horford is done after the way he played during last years playoffs.
Baynes is like Smart. His toughness, D, physical play, nevermind his underrated ability to pass and play team ball is huge for this team. Compared to a Theis for example. We just don't have anyone like him right now. Williams just isn't ready yet. Is he a savior? Yea in a way, he makes a huge difference and with Horford not 100% its magnified even more. The last three games we played teams that start legit NBA centers and we have no one to bang with them. Don't forget in the playoffs we were 2.4 plus with him on the court. If you believe that a guy like Smart has value that doesn't show in the raw stats, you have to buy that with Baynes.
With Hayward everyone kept saying wait till the end of the year. He'll need that much time. So I'm going to wait on just that.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 15, 2019 13:14:34 GMT -5
Baynes is like Smart. His toughness, D, physical play, nevermind his underrated ability to pass and play team ball is huge for this team. Compared to a Theis for example. We just don't have anyone like him right now. Williams just isn't ready yet. Is he a savior? Yea in a way, he makes a huge difference and with Horford not 100% its magnified even more. The last three games we played teams that start legit NBA centers and we have no one to bang with them. Don't forget in the playoffs we were 2.4 plus with him on the court. If you believe that a guy like Smart has value that doesn't show in the raw stats, you have to buy that with Baynes. Oh Baynes is a really good player, don't get me wrong. But with Horford clearly not progressing physically, the Celtics flat out need another big.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 15, 2019 13:49:19 GMT -5
physioworks.com.au/injuries-conditions-1/patellofemoral-kneecap-pain-syndrome90% of people will be pain free in 6 weeks after starting treatment. So unless we're very unlucky we can get Horford 100% this year. He just needs rest. I'm all for getting another big. I feel like we debate this every year going on like 5 years now. Horford is the only player we can't replace, just like Baynes. There is no depth behind those guys. Theis can't handle true centers and Williams is a rookie that is raw. If I'm Danny I go hard after Randle. Kinda the perfect fit this year and if you can resign him the future. That being said its unlikely and there just aren't a lot of bigs we can easily trade for. Still upset at not taking Jordan Bell as he would have fixed a lot of problems and given us very good depth. Semi isn't a bad player, yet he's buried behind four players.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 15, 2019 15:29:50 GMT -5
physioworks.com.au/injuries-conditions-1/patellofemoral-kneecap-pain-syndrome90% of people will be pain free in 6 weeks after starting treatment. So unless we're very unlucky we can get Horford 100% this year. He just needs rest. I'm all for getting another big. I feel like we debate this every year going on like 5 years now. Horford is the only player we can't replace, just like Baynes. There is no depth behind those guys. Theis can't handle true centers and Williams is a rookie that is raw. If I'm Danny I go hard after Randle. Kinda the perfect fit this year and if you can resign him the future. That being said its unlikely and there just aren't a lot of bigs we can easily trade for. Still upset at not taking Jordan Bell as he would have fixed a lot of problems and given us very good depth. Semi isn't a bad player, yet he's buried behind four players. Isn’t Bell in the doghouse this year? I haven’t looked but I think i remember hearing something about that. Seemed a lot more promising last year....
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jan 15, 2019 23:32:33 GMT -5
and Terry Rozier weighs in... nesn.com/2019/01/terry-rozier-candidly-acknowledges-problem-with-celtics-roster/“’I don’t think we’ve all been on a team like this,” Rozier said to Goodwill. “Young guys who can play, guys who did things in their career, the group that was together last year, then you bring Kyrie and Hayward back, it’s a lot with it.” When asked if the roster was too talented, Rozier didn’t back down. ‘Too talented, yeah. Too talented.’”
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 16, 2019 0:02:49 GMT -5
and Terry Rozier weighs in... nesn.com/2019/01/terry-rozier-candidly-acknowledges-problem-with-celtics-roster/“’I don’t think we’ve all been on a team like this,” Rozier said to Goodwill. “Young guys who can play, guys who did things in their career, the group that was together last year, then you bring Kyrie and Hayward back, it’s a lot with it.” When asked if the roster was too talented, Rozier didn’t back down. ‘Too talented, yeah. Too talented.’” I don't know what this even means. Not pointing out the flaw in your article soxfan, pointing out Rozier's comments. What do you mean this group is too talented? Win games if you're that talented. You're losing to the Heat and the Nets for crying out loud.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jan 16, 2019 8:11:16 GMT -5
Rozier hasn't played at a too talented level. His overall shooting stats have never been even average. He is a fair 3 point shooter. And, apart from Hayward, isn't this the same "too talented" team from a year ago.
Semi and Yabu could play OL or TE but don't appear to be offensive threats on the court...sort of AAAA players in baseball analogy. Hayward looks like Kelly O. used to... being hesitant to shoot unless he is wide open. And what's with all those jump passes?
Last year a lot of unexpectedly good things happened excepting Hayward's injury. The worm has turned this year with a lot of unanticipated bad things occuring.
Horford in defensive decline accelerated by injury at 32? Little rim protection, team wide low #s of free throws, vulnerability against teams with legit centers, yada, yada. Is it time to take a step back to take two steps forward by cracking the egg in trades?
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mobaz
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Posts: 3,048
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Post by mobaz on Jan 16, 2019 9:08:56 GMT -5
I'll be honest, this does not look like a team that has too much talent right now, Terry.
The hard part is Horford is the most irreplaceable player on the roster but his underperformance is hurting them the most.
I don't know how to shake the team up. Honest question: what does something like Horford-Brown-Rozier get? Not sure there's enough available on the mid-season market this year anyway.
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,862
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Post by wcp3 on Jan 16, 2019 12:37:48 GMT -5
I think people ought to stick on the Brown bandwagon - he’s been frustrating at times this year (although he’s getting more flak than he deserves), but I have a feeling he’ll take a big step forward next season when he’s back in the starting lineup for good.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 16, 2019 13:11:14 GMT -5
I think people ought to stick on the Brown bandwagon - he’s been frustrating at times this year (although he’s getting more flak than he deserves), but I have a feeling he’ll take a big step forward next season when he’s back in the starting lineup for good. He has all the tools, I still think he has a higher upside than Tatum and yet there are so many questions with him. He has shown flashes of being an elite defender, but he misses assignments on transition and is slow to rotate from time to time. He has a smooth jumper, but he can't make 2 FTs in a row. He can't pass or dribble and his body language is atrocious when he's missing shots. I'm still a believer, however I can't blame people who got off the bandwagon. One thing is certain though, there are too many wings on this roster and that hasn't been kind to Brown.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 16, 2019 13:14:11 GMT -5
I think people ought to stick on the Brown bandwagon - he’s been frustrating at times this year (although he’s getting more flak than he deserves), but I have a feeling he’ll take a big step forward next season when he’s back in the starting lineup for good. He has all the tools, I still think he has a higher upside than Tatum and yet there are so many questions with him. He has shown flashes of being an elite defender, but he misses assignments on transition and is slow to rotate from time to time. He has a smooth jumper, but he can't make 2 FTs in a row. He can't pass or dribble and his body language is atrocious when he's missing shots. I'm still a believer, however I can't blame people who got off the bandwagon. One thing is certain though, there are too many wings on this roster and that hasn't been kind to Brown. Despite all that isn’t he still ahead of schedule from draft day? How raw he was supposed to be.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 16, 2019 14:49:14 GMT -5
Despite all that isn’t he still ahead of schedule from draft day? How raw he was supposed to be. He is, but the questions about him are relatively the same. Like wcp mentioned, Brown needs more starting time. It really sucks he struggled badly to start the year.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 16, 2019 15:00:07 GMT -5
physioworks.com.au/injuries-conditions-1/patellofemoral-kneecap-pain-syndrome90% of people will be pain free in 6 weeks after starting treatment. So unless we're very unlucky we can get Horford 100% this year. He just needs rest. I'm all for getting another big. I feel like we debate this every year going on like 5 years now. Horford is the only player we can't replace, just like Baynes. There is no depth behind those guys. Theis can't handle true centers and Williams is a rookie that is raw. If I'm Danny I go hard after Randle. Kinda the perfect fit this year and if you can resign him the future. That being said its unlikely and there just aren't a lot of bigs we can easily trade for. Still upset at not taking Jordan Bell as he would have fixed a lot of problems and given us very good depth. Semi isn't a bad player, yet he's buried behind four players. Isn’t Bell in the doghouse this year? I haven’t looked but I think i remember hearing something about that. Seemed a lot more promising last year.... A quick search shows some reporters saying that Kerr doesn't like him free lancing. Yet his defensive numbers are very good just like last year. I think the bigger issue is that team is all about out scoring the other team. So they like playing a Jerebko that adds scoring rather than a defensive guy. The Warriors for some stupid reason only gave him a two year deal so he's a restricted free agent next year and they don't have full bird rights yet. Given their luxury tax issues maybe you could trade for him. Reports had them going after bigger true centers like Chandler, and Robin Lopez says he'll join them if bought out. Nevermind Cousins is close to returning. Given this teams offensive woes I'd love to add a guy like Bell that could really help or D and add very good depth. He fits our style of play a lot better than the Warriors.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 16, 2019 15:10:16 GMT -5
The too much talent comments are more about not enough playing time and the fact that Stevens feels the need to play certain players even if they suck. Example Rozier has been really bad at times, yet he never gets benched. Hayward has been really bad at times yet he never gets benched. He has zero issue not playing Semi and Wannamaker though. So I take Roziers comments as they have too many players that deserve minutes.
That has also resulted in a guy like Baynes not playing the minutes he should in some games because Stevens has to get other guys minutes. That is a big issue for a team that identity should be defensive first. As Baynes is like Smart, he adds toughness and sets a ton. I just love his physical play, other guys complaining and he just has this big smile on his face. They are just a different team without a big like him. He knows his role and enjoys it!
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