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Post by ctfisher on Jan 29, 2019 15:50:10 GMT -5
FWIW - Woj's piece indicates Davis/Paul will begin informing teams LAL is the only team he'll re-sign with when he becomes a free agent. Well there you have it friends, now let's move on and aim at Randle or Vucevic. I really hope the Pelicans trade him anywhere but the Lakers just to mess up this ridiculous collusion. Trade him to Phoenix. Rich Paul doesn't rule the NBA, don't give in New Orleans. I think that's pretty meaningless honestly - pretty transparent effort to get himself to LA, but if the Pelicans don't deal him there, it seems unlikely that the Lakers are going to wait out 2 years of free agency to get Davis, and unlikely that Davis would want to commit to 4 years with Lebron 36 (I think?) by the time he could get to LA. Unless LA basically throws the entire kitchen sink at NOLA, I bet Davis stays put until the offseason in which case I'd much rather we keep our powder dry. I think Randle and Vucevic are good players, but I don't think they move the needle for us - we just need to resolve whatever lingering chemistry issues are around, hope hayward plays himself into something resembling what he was a couple years ago, and keep our options open for Davis. Hayward has admittedly looked terrible recently, but given that we've won 6 of 7 with the only loss a close one to Golden State, I think we're starting to round into form and messing with the roster now might be a mistake even without factoring in how it might affect an AD deal |
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Post by texs31 on Jan 29, 2019 16:18:33 GMT -5
I would only caveat the above by saying it might not even be HIM that's dead set on LA.
Not that he'd be against it. But it could be Klutch/Paul/LeBron that's desperate to get him there and Davis who would be fine with it (and, for him, getting out of NOLA at the deadline would give him an earlier crack at a title run). But once a deal with another team is made, it could be a different tune.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 29, 2019 17:43:25 GMT -5
To be clear I say you couldn't beat their offer because I'm not trading Tatum, Brown, and picks. I'm not sure I'm trading Tatum, even for Davis. I think some of you are rather low on Kuzma and Ball. I'm not an Ingram guy, but they guys a player. At minimum a very solid starter. Ball has major upside. He's kinda raw, but he plays D, rebounds, passes and has greatly improved his jump shot. If you watch him play he's like Brown, you see big time flashes of what he can become. I see a Rondo with better shooting. Current rumors have the starting price being Kuzma, Ball, Zubac, and a first round pick. Whats the comp for that? Brown, Williams, along with Kings and Grizz picks? Now if you get into a bidding war? These discussions are hard because there are so many variables such as who does NOLA like better? Also; having a guy like Tatum could screw you if you won’t include him because some teams get fixated on your best assets and even if your second best player is better it equal to another team’s best he gets devalued because he’s number 2 on your list versus an arbitrary number 1 or your negotiations sour because you’ve said no on something creating negativity around your negotiation. That being said... you’re a Ball guy you are going to be higher on him than me and many others. But that proves the point above in a way. At the very least, can you see why a team wouldn’t like his game let alone his baggage? Part of the Ball issue is the position he plays at PG is the deepest in the league. The other part of the issue is, where is he as a player when you have to make a decision on him to extend him and how’s that fit your rebuilding timeline... Kuzma is a really good player, but that’s it. He’s not a building block guy, which means if you’re a smart team the reason you’d want him is to trade him later, which isn’t a bad thing. It’s another asset and that’s really all NOLA should care about. NOLA needs to start over after this trade which means they are years and years away. Personality, I think Brown has a better chance to be a top 3 on a championship team than any of the Lakers guys and I think that’s more important than volume of assets. Let’s hope he finishes the year strong for a lot of reasons, but that being one of them. I don’t see Danny trading Tatum AND Brown. It would be one of them plus Williams (this is where limited playing time might help us - he showed big time flashes and should be a more desirable target than Zubac - who again will hit FA that much earlier and isn’t a building block), plus picks - focusing on that Memphis pick. Sure I can see the baggage. Sure maybe not every team loves him the way some teams do. Yet I don't think any teams don't see Balls potential. You can certainly have your opinion I just think your way low on those guys. I agree Brown likely has the highest ceiling, but he's got a long way to go also to reach it. I don't watch a ton of Laker games, but when I do you can't help but be impressed by a guy like Ball upside. Zubac is one of the most underrated bigs in the game and he's 21. If he wasn't a free agent next year his value would be rather high. The guy is skilled. I also don't see why Kuzma isn't a building block given todays NBA. He's the type of PF teams crave. He allows you to play a true center like Zubac |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 29, 2019 17:52:22 GMT -5
Ball has major upside. He's kinda raw, but he plays D, rebounds, passes and has greatly improved his jump shot. If you watch him play he's like Brown, you see big time flashes of what he can become. I see a Rondo with better shooting. I see a player out of the NBA in a couple of years. I do like Kuzma and Ingram a lot, I think those are more comparable to Brown. Jaylen is having a down year, but he was really good last season and all around tremendous in the playoffs. Ball hasn't shown anything like that at all. Current rumors have the starting price being Kuzma, Ball, Zubac, and a first round pick. Whats the comp for that? Brown, Williams, along with Kings and Grizz picks? Now if you get into a bidding war? I can see your point and I do agree that Danny won't get into a bidding war. To me it truly depends on his willingness to include Tatum. If he does that, we got the trade. If not, I don't think we'll get it. It's difficult. I'm also very attached to Tatum and I think he's a superstar in the making, but he likely won't reach AD levels. On the other hand, some roster continuity would be fine. The more I think about it, the more I like your idea of trying to buy low on Randle. Now THAT would be a Danny Ainge move. Come on Danny, get a big for once. Have you watched Ball play? I have to guess you haven't and your just going off his stats. Watch him play. At minimum the guy will have a very long career as a top back up PG that can really defend, rebound, and Pass. The guy averaged 10.2 points 6.9 rebounds, 7.2 assists, and 1.7 steals per game as a rookie. His shooting has implroved a ton. The guy looks like a better Rondo and you think he's out of the league in a couple of years? |
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Post by texs31 on Jan 29, 2019 18:02:57 GMT -5
I'll just add that its probably inconsistent (at best) for those of us who have long supported Marcus Smart (me) to bash someone's shooting. Especially when they can do the other things that are mentioned. Under 50% from the line MUST be fixed though.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 29, 2019 18:06:27 GMT -5
As for those rumors Paul George and like 15 other guys say high. Why would Davis want to truly go to the Lakers if they have to gut the team to get him? A couple year run with LeBron? Over a 5-10 year run with the Celtics?
Call me crazy I wanted Davis, but I never wanted to gut our team for him. With the Lakers in the mix he was never going to be cheap. Great player, but why can't he push that team to more wins? With that talent level your not a good as the Clippers? That just needed to be said because all other top 5 guys can carry teams to wins.
Move onto guys like Randle and I'm 100% ok with that.
At the same time if the Lakers use this to low ball the Pelicans it could back fire on them. If they don't get him before the deadline it's a massive mistake. Then Danny will be there with picks and we know how teams love draft picks.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 29, 2019 18:14:50 GMT -5
Have you watched Ball play? I have to guess you haven't and your just going off his stats. Watch him play. At minimum the guy will have a very long career as a top back up PG that can really defend, rebound, and Pass. The guy averaged 10.2 points 6.9 rebounds, 7.2 assists, and 1.7 steals per game as a rookie. His shooting has implroved a ton. The guy looks like a better Rondo and you think he's out of the league in a couple of years? I have watched him play a few times and he never impressed me. That shooting form is truly atrocious and while he has some good court vision, he lacks any go to offensive move to keep the defense at bay. How is he scoring on you? Rondo was at least somewhat fast and able to beat guys there, Lonzo lacks top end explosion. And besides, it might sound silly to say that, but Rondo played in a different era surrounded by elite talent. I know Rondo is still active, but peak Rondo happened in a very different league even if it wasn't that long ago. Rondo also had that a-hole mentality that kept him sharp, I just don't see that ultra competitiveness in Ball. I'll concede that he's a quality defender. He's no Marcus Smart out there though. Maybe he sticks around, but I see him as a MCW or Elfrid Payton kind of dude that will eventually go away and not even be noticed. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 29, 2019 18:17:00 GMT -5
I'll just add that its probably inconsistent (at best) for those of us who have long supported Marcus Smart (me) to bash someone's shooting. Especially when they can do the other things that are mentioned. Under 50% from the line MUST be fixed though. Smart and Ball aren’t comparable players at all so I don’t think you can compare why ones shooting is more of a problem than the others. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 29, 2019 19:17:45 GMT -5
Have you watched Ball play? I have to guess you haven't and your just going off his stats. Watch him play. At minimum the guy will have a very long career as a top back up PG that can really defend, rebound, and Pass. The guy averaged 10.2 points 6.9 rebounds, 7.2 assists, and 1.7 steals per game as a rookie. His shooting has implroved a ton. The guy looks like a better Rondo and you think he's out of the league in a couple of years? I have watched him play a few times and he never impressed me. That shooting form is truly atrocious and while he has some good court vision, he lacks any go to offensive move to keep the defense at bay. How is he scoring on you? Rondo was at least somewhat fast and able to beat guys there, Lonzo lacks top end explosion. And besides, it might sound silly to say that, but Rondo played in a different era surrounded by elite talent. I know Rondo is still active, but peak Rondo happened in a very different league even if it wasn't that long ago. Rondo also had that a-hole mentality that kept him sharp, I just don't see that ultra competitiveness in Ball. I'll concede that he's a quality defender. He's no Marcus Smart out there though. Maybe he sticks around, but I see him as a MCW or Elfrid Payton kind of dude that will eventually go away and not even be noticed. MCW is still in the league in his 6th year and he never shot above 30% from deep till his limited time this year. Payton is a horrible comp because he's a mess defensively. Yet the guy is still starting games in this league this year! Ball is at 33% on 5 attempts a game from deep. So he can shoot, he's not MCW or Rondo. He currently ranks 9th among PGs in defensive real plus minus and that will likely only improve. He was very good using his size scoring down low in College, something we've yet to see in the NBA. If you watch him play he's just like Brown. Some games he looks like an all-star, other like he belongs in the D-league. He's 21 years old and even in the current NBA with a lot of good PGs, few have his upside as a complete package. He already has 3 career tripple doubles and like 8 other times he just missed it in his first 99 games. You don't think he'll reach his upside that is fine. Saying he'll be out of the league in a couple years is just hate though. Nevermind the guys you compare him too aren't close to out of the league. Color me confused! |
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 29, 2019 20:13:46 GMT -5
MCW is still in the league in his 6th year and he never shot above 30% from deep till his limited time this year. Payton is a horrible comp because he's a mess defensively. Yet the guy is still starting games in this league this year! Ball is at 33% on 5 attempts a game from deep. So he can shoot, he's not MCW or Rondo. He currently ranks 9th among PGs in defensive real plus minus and that will likely only improve. He was very good using his size scoring down low in College, something we've yet to see in the NBA. If you watch him play he's just like Brown. Some games he looks like an all-star, other like he belongs in the D-league. He's 21 years old and even in the current NBA with a lot of good PGs, few have his upside as a complete package. He already has 3 career tripple doubles and like 8 other times he just missed it in his first 99 games. You don't think he'll reach his upside that is fine. Saying he'll be out of the league in a couple years is just hate though. Nevermind the guys you compare him too aren't close to out of the league. Color me confused! Yet both MCW and Payton could never play an NBA game again like tomorrow and most people won't even notice. That's where Ball is heading. Maybe not downright exclusion, but he's heading nicely towards irrelevance. I'll give it to you that "being out of the league" was a bit dramatic, but he definitely doesn't look like starting material, let alone a second piece in a trade for Anthony Davis. I did watch him play. More than once in fact. Maybe I'm wrong here and I've been wrong a lot when it comes to the NBA, but I don't see it. He's not like Brown at all since you take one quick look at Jaylen and you see a future all star (even if that vision has been very faint at times). His size, speed, strength, dude's a machine. He can't dribble or pass, but all the other tools are there. Lonzo on the other hand is a lanky goofy kid with an absolutely monstrous shooting form. If I'm the Pelicans I'm demanding Kuzma, Ingram and Zubac and I'm telling the Lakers to piss off if they won't do that. I love Zubac. |
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Post by texs31 on Jan 29, 2019 20:28:27 GMT -5
[/quote]Smart and Ball aren’t comparable players at all so I don’t think you can compare why ones shooting is more of a problem than the others. [/quote]
How comparable they are as players was not the point here. Only that one's shooting improved after years of seeming like a lost cause. It was a pre-emptive retort to anyone who was going to point out his poor shooting as a reason he'll be a bust. It will have to get better. Just suggesting it can.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jan 29, 2019 22:10:31 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 30, 2019 8:43:45 GMT -5
MCW is still in the league in his 6th year and he never shot above 30% from deep till his limited time this year. Payton is a horrible comp because he's a mess defensively. Yet the guy is still starting games in this league this year! Ball is at 33% on 5 attempts a game from deep. So he can shoot, he's not MCW or Rondo. He currently ranks 9th among PGs in defensive real plus minus and that will likely only improve. He was very good using his size scoring down low in College, something we've yet to see in the NBA. If you watch him play he's just like Brown. Some games he looks like an all-star, other like he belongs in the D-league. He's 21 years old and even in the current NBA with a lot of good PGs, few have his upside as a complete package. He already has 3 career tripple doubles and like 8 other times he just missed it in his first 99 games. You don't think he'll reach his upside that is fine. Saying he'll be out of the league in a couple years is just hate though. Nevermind the guys you compare him too aren't close to out of the league. Color me confused! Yet both MCW and Payton could never play an NBA game again like tomorrow and most people won't even notice. That's where Ball is heading. Maybe not downright exclusion, but he's heading nicely towards irrelevance. I'll give it to you that "being out of the league" was a bit dramatic, but he definitely doesn't look like starting material, let alone a second piece in a trade for Anthony Davis. I did watch him play. More than once in fact. Maybe I'm wrong here and I've been wrong a lot when it comes to the NBA, but I don't see it. He's not like Brown at all since you take one quick look at Jaylen and you see a future all star (even if that vision has been very faint at times). His size, speed, strength, dude's a machine. He can't dribble or pass, but all the other tools are there. Lonzo on the other hand is a lanky goofy kid with an absolutely monstrous shooting form. If I'm the Pelicans I'm demanding Kuzma, Ingram and Zubac and I'm telling the Lakers to piss off if they won't do that. I love Zubac. Well this about sums up Don's scouting skills lanky goofy kid with a weird shooting form versus Brown who looks the part. Kendrick Brown says hello. |
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Post by philarhody on Jan 30, 2019 11:59:02 GMT -5
It’s not being discussed by the media, but I am sure Danny Ainge is looking at ways of including Kyrie in a trade for AD. It might have to be a three team trade, but the only way the Celtics could feasibly trade for AD this year would be by trading Kyrie. And if Danny thinks there is a diminishing chance of Kyrie resigning, he might as well see if he could get something of value for him now. Here’s a possible deal:
Kyrie, Brown, Williams the Sac/Philly 1st, the Memphis 1st, the Celtics 1st for AD
Or
Kyrie, Tatum, Williams, the Memphis 1st, the Celtics 1st for Davis.
Again, Kyrie probably doesn’t offer a ton of value to NO because he’s gone after the season. So Kyrie goes to the Nets and Allen Crabbe goes to the Pelicans to make the money work.
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Post by texs31 on Jan 30, 2019 12:43:35 GMT -5
1. Despite what you are reading, there should be no more concern about Kyrie leaving than what you already had. It's "Lying Season" as others have said.
2. Related, Jackie Mac (every star NBA player seems to have their own "insider" and she seems to be Kyrie's) said she put NO stock in the recent report.
3. I think Kyrie's presence is THE reason he would feel confident making a move for AD by giving up all those present/future assets even without a guaranteed AD would sign. Without that level of confidence, I wonder if DA would still put together those assets.
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Post by texs31 on Jan 30, 2019 12:54:23 GMT -5
Kevin Pelton just posted an article ranking the Lakers assets. Some interesting commentary, specifically at the top:
1. Ball - he said an analytics expert for an NBA team felt Ball's evaluation is a litmus test for how well a person understands the game of basketball (don't shoot the messenger).
2. Kuzma - in short, he's valuable. I'm guessing he wouldn't be considered the headliner but, based on the glowing remarks, maybe the best 2nd piece in an offer?
3. Ingram - not a glowing review and the fact a team has to start making a decision on him next fall probably muddies it.
4. Hart - says LAL should try and keep him
5. Zubac
6. Wagner - he discusses the last 2 in tandem. Points to Zubac's skillset (rim protection and finishing) being fairly available to a team like the Lakers. Also points out Zubac being an RFA and the risk of overvaluing him. Says Wagner would bring something different (Stretch ability) to the position.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 30, 2019 14:15:49 GMT -5
Well this about sums up Don's scouting skills lanky goofy kid with a weird shooting form versus Brown who looks the part. Kendrick Brown says hello. Brown also carried his team to the ECF last season (he was just as important as Tatum who we're basically considering untouchable). The only thing Lonzo ever carried is his moronic father. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 30, 2019 20:14:48 GMT -5
Jaylen Browns stock is rising - assuming Smart has to go in a Davis trade, would Brown for the roster better than Tatum after getting Davis to go with Kyrie and Horford?
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Post by texs31 on Jan 30, 2019 20:55:14 GMT -5
Not sure if it would be better but he could certainly make it less painful to lose Tatum.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 30, 2019 22:42:19 GMT -5
I was watching the game earlier and I was struggling to do away with a thought that came rushing to me. I know it's one game against a pretty bad team and I don't want to overreact and this is such an obvious trap for overreaction, but I just can't help it. Thing is, I don't think Kyrie is *our* guy. He's the best player in the team, he's a guy I enjoy listening to and I all around like him. He's a nice guy, very nice guy. But he isn't *our* guy. Rozier, now he's *our* guy. If he was just a bit more consistent and polished I'd advocate something I'm telling my brain really hard not to do lol.
I see it now umass. I still don't agree with your overall take on Kyrie, but I definitely see what you mean.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jan 30, 2019 22:57:24 GMT -5
I was watching the game earlier and I was struggling to do away with a thought that came rushing to me. I know it's one game against a pretty bad team and I don't want to overreact and this is such an obvious trap for overreaction, but I just can't help it. Thing is, I don't think Kyrie is *our* guy. He's the best player in the team, he's a guy I enjoy listening to and I all around like him. He's a nice guy, very nice guy. But he isn't *our* guy. Rozier, now he's *our* guy. If he was just a bit more consistent and polished I'd advocate something I'm telling my brain really hard not to do lol. I see it now umass. I still don't agree with your overall take on Kyrie, but I definitely see what you mean. What has struck me the last two games is balance. I know that when a talent like Kyrie is not in the lineup, the dynamic changes, the rotations change, and as we saw last year, a talented roster can certainly win. There is no perfect or single answer for the way ahead - AD or no AD, Kyrie or no Kyrie - but it is a pretty good problem to have. Box score tonight has some really flashy stuff (I couldn't watch or listen) - nice bounce back from Hayward, great stats throughout. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 30, 2019 23:20:43 GMT -5
What has struck me the last two games is balance. I know that when a talent like Kyrie is not in the lineup, the dynamic changes, the rotations change, and as we saw last year, a talented roster can certainly win. There is no perfect or single answer for the way ahead - AD or no AD, Kyrie or no Kyrie - but it is a pretty good problem to have. Box score tonight has some really flashy stuff (I couldn't watch or listen) - nice bounce back from Hayward, great stats throughout. Yeah, they just play looser. You probably can't win a championship without a guy that can go one on one when the defense takes you out of rhythm, but for games like this it definitely is a blast to watch. And there's a chemistry thing I obviously can only speak hypothetically, but guys definitely looked like they were playing free of any pressure. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 30, 2019 23:47:58 GMT -5
It’s not being discussed by the media, but I am sure Danny Ainge is looking at ways of including Kyrie in a trade for AD. It might have to be a three team trade, but the only way the Celtics could feasibly trade for AD this year would be by trading Kyrie. And if Danny thinks there is a diminishing chance of Kyrie resigning, he might as well see if he could get something of value for him now. Here’s a possible deal: Kyrie, Brown, Williams the Sac/Philly 1st, the Memphis 1st, the Celtics 1st for AD Or Kyrie, Tatum, Williams, the Memphis 1st, the Celtics 1st for Davis. Again, Kyrie probably doesn’t offer a ton of value to NO because he’s gone after the season. So Kyrie goes to the Nets and Allen Crabbe goes to the Pelicans to make the money work. If I'm Danny I only do this if you think Davis gets dealt by the trade deadline and this is your only chance. I actually like the idea and yea it has to be a three team deal, which is tricky. At the same time I'd do this so you keep Tatum and Brown. I think your ideas are rather high. I'm not trading that for Davis. For example Brown, Williams, Kings pick, Griz pick, and our pick is a great offer. Say you get the knicks or Nets to trade for Irving, they then send assets to the Pelicans and to it. That shouldn't include Brown or Tatum though. More like filler and draft picks, not all of them either. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 31, 2019 0:02:03 GMT -5
Kevin Pelton just posted an article ranking the Lakers assets. Some interesting commentary, specifically at the top: 1. Ball - he said an analytics expert for an NBA team felt Ball's evaluation is a litmus test for how well a person understands the game of basketball (don't shoot the messenger). 2. Kuzma - in short, he's valuable. I'm guessing he wouldn't be considered the headliner but, based on the glowing remarks, maybe the best 2nd piece in an offer? 3. Ingram - not a glowing review and the fact a team has to start making a decision on him next fall probably muddies it. 4. Hart - says LAL should try and keep him 5. Zubac 6. Wagner - he discusses the last 2 in tandem. Points to Zubac's skillset (rim protection and finishing) being fairly available to a team like the Lakers. Also points out Zubac being an RFA and the risk of overvaluing him. Says Wagner would bring something different (Stretch ability) to the position. Ball isn't Smart, but he does similar type things. Given our lively debates a lot of those little things a lot of people just don't see or even pay attention to. I look at a PG and the first thing is how the run the team and make players around them better. I've seen nothing to change my mind that Ball can do that at an elite level in time. It seems other want elite scorers and don't value old school Basket Ball skills. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 31, 2019 5:13:47 GMT -5
Don't the Celtics have to wait to trade Kyrie after a extension because of some rule or exception?
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