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Post by soxfansince67 on May 6, 2019 20:56:20 GMT -5
9 for 41 from 3. What happened to this team? Unless there is a miracle, we will see a merciful end to a pretty unenjoyable season. Significant changes ahead?? They should punt Kyrie and build around Tatum and Brown. There, I finally made peace with it. Lots of questions...Horford's in decline? Hayward lost for good? Smart and Rozier future if Irving goes? Will an Irving departure simplify things for Brown and Tatum?
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Post by Don Caballero on May 6, 2019 21:11:45 GMT -5
Lots of questions...Horford's in decline? Hayward lost for good? Smart and Rozier future if Irving goes? Will an Irving departure simplify things for Brown and Tatum? Tough questions indeed. I think Horford is and has always been a small baller, you can't rely on him to dominate anyone over a series. In a single game? Yeah, he can deliver that. But his influence wanes over 7. Smart should stay because his defensive ceiling is incredible, Rozier is gone baby, he looks terrible out there. I don't think Irving needs to go necessarily, I expressed myself poorly. He should stay if he wants to stay, but he needs to play within the system. It can't be his team, he needs to be as important as Tatum and Brown. Stevens needs to do a better job at limiting bad shots and dear God this team loves bad shots. Kyrie being a late game weapon and taking smarter shots and not throwing his teammates under the bus every week and just being a better team player? Yes, I want that Kyrie. Him threatening to leave and saying stupid sh*t on interviews after tough losses? Screw that, let the Knicks deal with that. Thing is, he's not Durant. That's not a knock on him, no one except Durant is Kevin Durant. He can't be that much of a distraction, his game doesn't back that up.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 6, 2019 22:37:41 GMT -5
Irving has shot 35.3%, 57.7%, 36.8%, 30.8%, 57.1%, 22.2%, 36.4%, and 31.8% in his eight playoff games this year.
Smart comes back and instead of cutting Hayward minutes, he cuts Browns minutes. Doesn't play Semi and hardly plays Baynes. Color me confused with that, playing Baynes more started our late season run and Semi did as good of job as anyone can on Giannis last year.
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Post by beasleyrockah on May 6, 2019 23:10:35 GMT -5
Hayward doesn't need an offseason to get right, he needs a time machine before his injury. It's going to be tough to be a true title contender paying Hayward this salary and getting this type of production.
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Post by Don Caballero on May 6, 2019 23:27:10 GMT -5
Irving has shot 35.3%, 57.7%, 36.8%, 30.8%, 57.1%, 22.2%, 36.4%, and 31.8% in his eight playoff games this year. Smart comes back and instead of cutting Hayward minutes, he cuts Browns minutes. Doesn't play Semi and hardly plays Baynes. Color me confused with that, playing Baynes more started our late season run and Semi did as good of job as anyone can on Giannis last year. There are not enough bad things that could be said about Brad's rotations, but I think Baynes is seriously banged up. He had so many injuries this season. This one is on Danny who yet again did nothing to address the big man position and is instead hoarding picks.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 7, 2019 0:32:40 GMT -5
9 for 41 from 3. What happened to this team? Unless there is a miracle, we will see a merciful end to a pretty unenjoyable season. Significant changes ahead?? They should punt Kyrie and build around Tatum and Brown. There, I finally made peace with it. I wish there was a way to get Leonard this off-season so I could agree with you or sign and trade Hayward for Kevin Durant, but neither of those have more than a 5 percent chance of happening. This is one of the reasons why I can never be at peace with it, no matter how much he doesn't play well with the team at times.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 7, 2019 0:37:05 GMT -5
Lots of questions...Horford's in decline? Hayward lost for good? Smart and Rozier future if Irving goes? Will an Irving departure simplify things for Brown and Tatum? Tough questions indeed. I think Horford is and has always been a small baller, you can't rely on him to dominate anyone over a series. In a single game? Yeah, he can deliver that. But his influence wanes over 7. Smart should stay because his defensive ceiling is incredible, Rozier is gone baby, he looks terrible out there. I hate Horford's game everytime you mention him myself. Maybe Robert Williams steps up a little, or Danny trades for a big time big man. I think Rozier could be back. If Irving goes, then your starting point guard is Smart and THAT really isn't good enough. At least Rozier has some sort of ceiling that's better than Smart overall skill wise. Rozier cost himself a lot of money this past season with his poor play, so there's that at least. He should be cheap.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 7, 2019 4:01:10 GMT -5
Irving has shot 35.3%, 57.7%, 36.8%, 30.8%, 57.1%, 22.2%, 36.4%, and 31.8% in his eight playoff games this year. Kyrie is as good as gone. His inconsistent shot making ability in the playoffs did him in. He'll leave knowing that he's one of the biggest reasons why this team failed badly this year too. He's already a villain in Boston and he hasn't even left yet. The Celtics needed a great playoffs from him and the team to keep him, now he's gone baring something unforseen (Danny trading for top talent out of no where). The rebuild to greatness is over. Back to square one all over again, just like in 2012. You have 2 more pieces than you did back then (Brown and Tatum), but it's not even close to enough and won't be for a long time. I'm pretty much checked out on the Celtics, unless something big happens. Will watch them even more casually next year.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on May 7, 2019 7:05:09 GMT -5
Irving has shot 35.3%, 57.7%, 36.8%, 30.8%, 57.1%, 22.2%, 36.4%, and 31.8% in his eight playoff games this year. Smart comes back and instead of cutting Hayward minutes, he cuts Browns minutes. Doesn't play Semi and hardly plays Baynes. Color me confused with that, playing Baynes more started our late season run and Semi did as good of job as anyone can on Giannis last year. You’re not alone - Stevens is confused too. He had no idea how to coach this team all year.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 7, 2019 8:34:51 GMT -5
In regards to all of these posts, IMO, Kyrie is not really coachable and he isn't quite as good as he thinks he is. Or at least he hasn't been what the C's need him to be, which is more of a team player who limits himself to 18-20 shots a game. Celts will have to bite the bullet and let him go for nothing unless they can do a sign and trade.
Maybe in the long run they are just better off not giving him max money and coming up with a new plan.
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Post by texs31 on May 7, 2019 8:50:35 GMT -5
If nothing else, the offseason could be much more interesting. Prior to the season, it was pretty straight forward. Re-sign Kyrie. Do whatever you can to get Davis.
Now, everything (other than straight signing of a max FA) is on the table. Isnt it?
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mobaz
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Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on May 7, 2019 9:45:34 GMT -5
Honest question: what would have been a better use of the brooklyn pick, in retrospect? Paul George, if indy would have taken picks over talent? I dont know that Kawai as a mercenary would have been better, and would have had to hold it a year. I guess if Sexton were in hand, could have MAYBE pulled off a Davis this trade deadline. Anyone else that would have moved?
I think it was a worthwhile chance on Kyrie (and all we gave up has deteriorated since) and it looked good last year, but obviously didn't work out.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 7, 2019 10:41:01 GMT -5
Irving has shot 35.3%, 57.7%, 36.8%, 30.8%, 57.1%, 22.2%, 36.4%, and 31.8% in his eight playoff games this year. Kyrie is as good as gone. His inconsistent shot making ability in the playoffs did him in. He'll leave knowing that he's one of the biggest reasons why this team failed badly this year too. He's already a villain in Boston and he hasn't even left yet. The Celtics needed a great playoffs from him and the team to keep him, now he's gone baring something unforseen (Danny trading for top talent out of no where). The rebuild to greatness is over. Back to square one all over again, just like in 2012. You have 2 more pieces than you did back then (Brown and Tatum), but it's not even close to enough and won't be for a long time. I'm pretty much checked out on the Celtics, unless something big happens. Will watch them even more casually next year. I don't know. Does he really leave after wanting to be the man and then failing at that? Like if he did well and everyone else sucked I could for sure see him leaving. Yet the last three games have been him litterally shooting us out of close games and the other starters have been rather good. It's a lesson in how being the man is different when you don't have a LeBron that teams worry about. If he jumps ship now he basically admits he can't be the man. He'd fit better playing off Durant in New York, but that changes his legacy. The reason Durant wants to leave or might leave the Warriors. He won't get his due winning on the Warriors. So I'm not so sure if you want to keep Irving if this is a bad thing. The question I've had since last year is can Irving grow as a player? Given those comments he still has a long way to go. Yet if he really wants to have the legacy he wants, the Celtics are still the best team for him. Stevens is still the best coach for him, if he'll listen and play team ball. Like this either helps Irving grow as a player or proves 100% he'll never change. We'll see how intelligent Irving really is frankly. I'm interested to see how he looks at things after his emotions calm down and he truly reflects on what happened.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 7, 2019 10:46:31 GMT -5
If nothing else, the offseason could be much more interesting. Prior to the season, it was pretty straight forward. Re-sign Kyrie. Do whatever you can to get Davis. Now, everything (other than straight signing of a max FA) is on the table. Isnt it? If you want to get crazy, you could use some picks to ship out Hayward to a rebuilding team for cap space. I don't think I'd do it unless you could get a big fish. Yet with Tatum and Brown coming due for extension the time might be right. So yea it's going to be rather interesting.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 7, 2019 10:47:20 GMT -5
Honest question: what would have been a better use of the brooklyn pick, in retrospect? Paul George, if indy would have taken picks over talent? I dont know that Kawai as a mercenary would have been better, and would have had to hold it a year. I guess if Sexton were in hand, could have MAYBE pulled off a Davis this trade deadline. Anyone else that would have moved? I think it was a worthwhile chance on Kyrie (and all we gave up has deteriorated since) and it looked good last year, but obviously didn't work out. I'd take Sexton frankly.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 8, 2019 7:38:58 GMT -5
Umass, really good points on Kyrie and his future. Can he change? Does he realize what you are saying? He is a young man with a huge ego so I have my doubts that he can embrace what you are saying? Kudos to you for seeing this a long time ago, yes that hurt to admit.
BUT if he could become that player in Stevens system then wow we could really have a player. Not confident he can make that change to his game and thought process.
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Post by Don Caballero on May 8, 2019 11:52:10 GMT -5
I wouldn't, Sexton is a lesser version of Kyrie. If we didn't have Kyrie, ideally we'd go for a solid passing PG like Monte Morris or (heck I can't believe I'm saying this) Lonzo Ball. You know what I mean, a more dynamic passing PG. And get a real big who can bang inside and that's way more balanced.
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Post by texs31 on May 8, 2019 12:09:53 GMT -5
So I think the spirit of the question was "what would you have done with the pick if we hadn't traded it". Neither Morris nor Ball would've been in that discussion (for obvious reasons)
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 8, 2019 12:14:55 GMT -5
I wouldn't, Sexton is a lesser version of Kyrie. If we didn't have Kyrie, ideally we'd go for a solid passing PG like Monte Morris or (heck I can't believe I'm saying this) Lonzo Ball. You know what I mean, a more dynamic passing PG. And get a real big who can bang inside and that's way more balanced. The question was do you take Sexton or trade the pick for another Veteran if had a redo. I'd take Sexton. He has very good upside, matches Tatum and Brown age wise and can grow with them. Not saying he's the starter right now, but I like the Kid and he'd help our bench at the minimum. Nothing wrong with an Irving lite type PG on a rookie deal. I'd just focus on building the young core if I had a redo on the Irving trade and was there a better high upside option available with that pick? He had that monster game against us, I was very impressed with his upside. He was a monster going to the Basket and I love that. I just have to ask a big like who? Horford has been rather good in my eyes and is the perfect modern day big. You need to look for a long-term replacement, he's getting older. Yet I'm kinda pissed they are waisting a playoff run when Horford is playing at such a high level. Like you can't blame him for Giannis, the guys just a beast and likely the most unstoppable player in the NBA right now. I don't think a Prime Aged Tim Duncan could defend him, even a prime KG would struggle. He's too quick for Duncan and his strength and speed would give KG fits. I don't see how you stop him, with his size, length, speed and athletic ability. He's like a taller longer LeBron that gets all the calls. Like can Davis guard him? Or are you just going to get him in foul trouble? I will say one of the reasons I love PJ Washington is because his size, length, and athletic ability could help. Yet you can't stop him, more like slow him down for a few games like Semi did last year.
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Post by texs31 on May 8, 2019 12:21:14 GMT -5
If Danny was doing it all over, I think he might've tried to move up to get Bamba. EDIT: Maybe Carter
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 8, 2019 12:47:14 GMT -5
The funny thing is if you want the perfect guy to try and slow down Giannis you already have him, he's just raw and not ready. Robert Williams has the right combo of Size, length, strength, and athletic ability to at least give Giannis some problems. I mean the guy blocked Davis a couple times in a game. He'll struggle with his speed, yet that's the issue with any big. He blew by Brown like nothing last game and then was quick enough to avoid Tatum coming over for the weak side block. Sometimes you just need to enjoy greatness. Like it blows he's killing us, but it's one of the most dominate performances I've seen in 20 years.
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Post by Don Caballero on May 8, 2019 13:53:48 GMT -5
The question was do you take Sexton or trade the pick for another Veteran if had a redo. I'd take Sexton. He has very good upside, matches Tatum and Brown age wise and can grow with them. Not saying he's the starter right now, but I like the Kid and he'd help our bench at the minimum. Nothing wrong with an Irving lite type PG on a rookie deal. I'd just focus on building the young core if I had a redo on the Irving trade and was there a better high upside option available with that pick? He had that monster game against us, I was very impressed with his upside. He was a monster going to the Basket and I love that. I just have to ask a big like who? Horford has been rather good in my eyes and is the perfect modern day big. You need to look for a long-term replacement, he's getting older. Yet I'm kinda pissed they are waisting a playoff run when Horford is playing at such a high level. Like you can't blame him for Giannis, the guys just a beast and likely the most unstoppable player in the NBA right now. I don't think a Prime Aged Tim Duncan could defend him, even a prime KG would struggle. He's too quick for Duncan and his strength and speed would give KG fits. I don't see how you stop him, with his size, length, speed and athletic ability. He's like a taller longer LeBron that gets all the calls. Like can Davis guard him? Or are you just going to get him in foul trouble? I will say one of the reasons I love PJ Washington is because his size, length, and athletic ability could help. Yet you can't stop him, more like slow him down for a few games like Semi did last year. Oh I get it now, I thought the question was about Irving or Sexton. And as for the big, you can't do anything about Giannis, he's going to score a lot and that's just how it is. A big would make a difference on offense more than anything. The Bucks are doing to us what the Cavaliers did last season, they're softly packing the paint by taking lanes. Of course it isn't as egregious and exploitable on a regular shooting night as what the Cavs did, the Bucks are a much better coached team. So you can't drive against them, you need someone to get deep positioning and hulk around the basket. An inside presence they need to respect so they can't play "in between" defense. I don't even mean someone elite like Davis, it could be guys like Favors, old friend Dwight Powell, Valanciunas, Thomas Bryant. Someone who can bang inside and throw some elbows on their heads, someone with a bit more offensive game than Baynes. Someone like Montrezl Harrell or Clint Capela would drain their inside defense. I'm aboard the PJ Washington hype train as well.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 8, 2019 15:13:00 GMT -5
Now maybe I'm wrong as I haven't watched 100% of the games, tons of town meetings about us building our own town owned fiber optics network. 1 GB per second internet coming to small old Windsor haha. We had only dial up when I first moved here 11 years ago and currently have very slow DSL.
Yet I didn't see Irving pass once in the second half when driving last game. I've seen very little pick and roll with Horford all playoffs. Thomas was great at that and even Rozier and Horford started to click last year. So yea the Bucks send everyone at Irving, just like the Pacers did. Yet Tatum and Brown have been able to drive just fine, they just get zero calls and it's sickening after watching Giannis get so many calls. Irving needs to adjust, not talk about taking more shots.
I think a Randle type guy or yes a Harrell type guy would help, but not to replace Horford. To help supplement him and give you more bench options. Randle and Harrell could attack Lopez in a way we can't now. Yet they still fit our style. Favors, Bryant, and Powell aren't great low post scorers and wouldn't do much in my opinion. Valanciunas is interesting, he can certainly score down low, but would also change the whole team. I'd have to think that over and it's effect on things like D and playing team ball. Yet one thing none of these guys can do is stretch the floor like Horford and Horford is the best defender of the group in my opinion in today's NBA small ball game. The Bucks have also gone small for large stretches during this series.
So yeah a true low post scorers that can play small ball center would certainly help. That's if they actually post him up, they almost never post up Horford and he's not terrible. Yet if Irving plays like he has, you need pure shooters more like the Cavs had. I'd send four people at Irving also if he wasn't passing and even if he was Stevens was playing Smart and Rozier with him. Like that's a horrible combo given the way the Bucks are playing.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 8, 2019 17:51:59 GMT -5
The funny thing is if you want the perfect guy to try and slow down Giannis you already have him, he's just raw and not ready. Robert Williams has the right combo of Size, length, strength, and athletic ability to at least give Giannis some problems. I mean the guy blocked Davis a couple times in a game. He'll struggle with his speed, yet that's the issue with any big. He blew by Brown like nothing last game and then was quick enough to avoid Tatum coming over for the weak side block. Sometimes you just need to enjoy greatness. Like it blows he's killing us, but it's one of the most dominate performances I've seen in 20 years. It's Giannis' league in the Eastern Conference now. I tried explaining that, but "the Celtics beat him last year and blah blah blah." It's going to be real tough for the Celtics to get by this guy the next 5 years. Everyone of the stars are going to want to team up with him eventually too. He's the best player in the league now. There's no real doubt about it.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 8, 2019 18:01:38 GMT -5
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