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2019 Patriots Offseason Thread
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 26, 2019 15:40:08 GMT -5
As RJP pointed out those huge guys are rare. If he's a monster DT that can play all three downs coming from Clemson and goes number 32 that is rather telling. He's by far the biggest DT among the top 10 DTs. He outweighs the next closest guy by 38 pounds per Walter football, who site team sources that he played at 350 last year. If he can play all three downs he's a physical freak. So yea I'd be worried. Nevermind the failed drug test. Like I said before / lots of teams just don’t want those guys and the drug test along with Dline depth could make any one of them drop. Only so many teams are going to draft Dline over another position to start with and there’s a ton of Dline in the draft. Any player who falls that far has questions - Lawrence will be no different. You should worry about them all to some degree |
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Post by telson13 on Feb 26, 2019 18:30:45 GMT -5
That’s exactly what I mean by willful ignorance. I have little doubt that Kraft must’ve discussed this place with buddies. Hell, Trump has a home nearby. I doubt he only went once. Frequent a place like that, and almost assuredly talk about it with friends, and the nature of the business is bound to come up. Surrounded there by Chinese women who don’t speak English, at some level there’s got to be a personal internal monologue about it. Who are they? Are they here legally? Do they even want to be here? Unless one is irrevocably obtuse, I’m sure they’d entertain those questions, and notice that these women aren’t doing what they’re doing of their own free will. Human beings do a lot of nonverbal communication...enslaved women are guaranteed to project submissively (which is probably part of the draw for these guys), and they’re probably also displaying signs of verbal, emotional, and even physical abuse. Not “seeing” that, no matter what you say, simply isn’t a reality. Humans are *hard-wired* to pickup on those cues. It’s simply a fact. So “missing” those cues, unless a person has a pervasive developmental disorder on the autism spectrum, is a choice. Ignoring the situation is a choice. And continuing to frequent the establishment, in spite of it all, is a choice. People make choices every day to do things they know will hurt others, and the calculus in their mind says that in order to get what they want, it’s worth it. And we all do it, and go through some degree of mental gymnastics to rationalize it and still feel like we’re good people. That’s willful ignorance. And in this case, *at best* Kraft can claim that willful ignorance, but he’s still going to pay the price for his actions. And plenty of people will rally behind him, just like you are, and rationalize it away, minimize it, etc. No person can be defined as “good” or “bad” by a single instance...we’re all the sum of what we put out in the world. Kraft’s done a lot of good, philanthropically. But the idea that this is a non-issue is exactly what human traffickers depend on to stay in business in the first place. The facts don't back that up though Telson. For example only 8,500 sex trafficking cases in the US in 2017 in a Country of 325 million people. A large city like Houston had two all year for example. The idea that a john is going to rational assume or should that getting a rub and tug is by sex slaves is kinda crazy when millions of guys are doing it and there are do few cases of it. Two things going on here the media or I should say activists are blowing it out of proportion or it's a lot bigger problem than almost anyone thinks. If it's the latter, which I'm highly skeptical of, then the Police need to make a lot more arrests which will change the public views. Until that happens you can't blame people that they should be thinking that way. Simple fix make it legal. I see zero reason it shouldn't be legal between two adults who consent to it. It being Illegal, where it happens behind the scenes and no one talks about allows this crap to happen. Nevermind making it legal makes it a whole lot safer for everyone. So you think these women were signaling men that they needed help and everyone was just turning a blind eye? That is a massive assumption that frankly seems to be deliberately trying to slam Kraft. We have no clue what happened! Yet I find it crazy hard to believe Kraft in his mind thought something was wrong and kept going back to that place. You want to make the point people should be thinking that way, ok that could make sense. Not that people are and just willfully not caring. I just don't buy that. These places wouldn't be so successful if it was obvious what was going on. I live in Berkshire County, basically the backwoods of Massachusetts and we have a bunch of places with Chinese people that can't speak english and almost all of them aren't slaves. Zero cases in my area for my lifetime. I better stop getting Chinese food because before you know it people like you are going to be saying I'm supporting human trafficking and I should know better. There are no red flags because a bunch of Chinese women that can't speak english is a normal thing in this Country. All Chinese businesses have them. You’re equating the sex trade with restaurants? That’s the definitive use of false analogy. Or maybe it’s not, because indentured servitude in restaurants is a serious issue too. www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5946802/ampwww.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/03/29/521971468/in-u-s-restaurants-bars-and-food-trucks-modern-slavery-persistsI’m also not talking about workers intentionally sending signals for help. I’m talking about basic human recognition of emotional state. You are welcome to keep your head firmly in the sand and rationalize it away. That’s your prerogative. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 26, 2019 20:10:38 GMT -5
The facts don't back that up though Telson. For example only 8,500 sex trafficking cases in the US in 2017 in a Country of 325 million people. A large city like Houston had two all year for example. The idea that a john is going to rational assume or should that getting a rub and tug is by sex slaves is kinda crazy when millions of guys are doing it and there are do few cases of it. Two things going on here the media or I should say activists are blowing it out of proportion or it's a lot bigger problem than almost anyone thinks. If it's the latter, which I'm highly skeptical of, then the Police need to make a lot more arrests which will change the public views. Until that happens you can't blame people that they should be thinking that way. Simple fix make it legal. I see zero reason it shouldn't be legal between two adults who consent to it. It being Illegal, where it happens behind the scenes and no one talks about allows this crap to happen. Nevermind making it legal makes it a whole lot safer for everyone. So you think these women were signaling men that they needed help and everyone was just turning a blind eye? That is a massive assumption that frankly seems to be deliberately trying to slam Kraft. We have no clue what happened! Yet I find it crazy hard to believe Kraft in his mind thought something was wrong and kept going back to that place. You want to make the point people should be thinking that way, ok that could make sense. Not that people are and just willfully not caring. I just don't buy that. These places wouldn't be so successful if it was obvious what was going on. I live in Berkshire County, basically the backwoods of Massachusetts and we have a bunch of places with Chinese people that can't speak english and almost all of them aren't slaves. Zero cases in my area for my lifetime. I better stop getting Chinese food because before you know it people like you are going to be saying I'm supporting human trafficking and I should know better. There are no red flags because a bunch of Chinese women that can't speak english is a normal thing in this Country. All Chinese businesses have them. I’m also not talking about workers intentionally sending signals for help. I’m talking about basic human recognition of emotional state. You are welcome to keep your head firmly in the sand and rationalize it away. That’s your prerogative. Have you been in these places with these women? If not, how can you even portend that the women are showing any type of emotional state? I haven’t so I can’t know if you’re correct or not, but if you haven’t then it’s a huge leap to suggest this is the case and that anyone who questions it has their head in the sand. |
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Post by telson13 on Feb 26, 2019 20:32:06 GMT -5
I’m also not talking about workers intentionally sending signals for help. I’m talking about basic human recognition of emotional state. You are welcome to keep your head firmly in the sand and rationalize it away. That’s your prerogative. Have you been in these places with these women? If not, how can you even portend that the women are showing any type of emotional state? I haven’t so I can’t know if you’re correct or not, but if you haven’t then it’s a huge leap to suggest this is the case and that anyone who questions it has their head in the sand. What I’m saying is that someone who is a sex slave is going to show signs of emotional trauma. Sure, you can argue that the language barrier/cultural complicates that. But saying that walking into a rub-n-tug where the workers are all Chinese nationals who don’t speak English and telling oneself that they’re all doing it voluntarily is exactly what I described in my first post...normalizing it to assuage guilt. I mean, the whole argument of “why would anyone bother to think something is wrong” actually proves my point by being exactly what I’m talking about: willful minimization (in this case, in service of hero worship). I e said I don’t think Kraft is an “evil” guy. I’m saying that he’s a lot less innocent than people are making him out to be. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 26, 2019 20:47:41 GMT -5
Have you been in these places with these women? If not, how can you even portend that the women are showing any type of emotional state? I haven’t so I can’t know if you’re correct or not, but if you haven’t then it’s a huge leap to suggest this is the case and that anyone who questions it has their head in the sand. What I’m saying is that someone who is a sex slave is going to show signs of emotional trauma. You don’t know this - you’re making an assumption. The rest of what you said in the post is different. It’s basically saying anyone who frequents these places is willfully ignoring they are supporting the sex trade. You yourself said you didn’t think of this until a friend brought it up. It seems you’re rewriting history based on what this story has told us. Also, you’re assuming all rub and tug places have sex slaves. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 26, 2019 23:29:07 GMT -5
The facts don't back that up though Telson. For example only 8,500 sex trafficking cases in the US in 2017 in a Country of 325 million people. A large city like Houston had two all year for example. The idea that a john is going to rational assume or should that getting a rub and tug is by sex slaves is kinda crazy when millions of guys are doing it and there are do few cases of it. Two things going on here the media or I should say activists are blowing it out of proportion or it's a lot bigger problem than almost anyone thinks. If it's the latter, which I'm highly skeptical of, then the Police need to make a lot more arrests which will change the public views. Until that happens you can't blame people that they should be thinking that way. Simple fix make it legal. I see zero reason it shouldn't be legal between two adults who consent to it. It being Illegal, where it happens behind the scenes and no one talks about allows this crap to happen. Nevermind making it legal makes it a whole lot safer for everyone. So you think these women were signaling men that they needed help and everyone was just turning a blind eye? That is a massive assumption that frankly seems to be deliberately trying to slam Kraft. We have no clue what happened! Yet I find it crazy hard to believe Kraft in his mind thought something was wrong and kept going back to that place. You want to make the point people should be thinking that way, ok that could make sense. Not that people are and just willfully not caring. I just don't buy that. These places wouldn't be so successful if it was obvious what was going on. I live in Berkshire County, basically the backwoods of Massachusetts and we have a bunch of places with Chinese people that can't speak english and almost all of them aren't slaves. Zero cases in my area for my lifetime. I better stop getting Chinese food because before you know it people like you are going to be saying I'm supporting human trafficking and I should know better. There are no red flags because a bunch of Chinese women that can't speak english is a normal thing in this Country. All Chinese businesses have them. You’re equating the sex trade with restaurants? That’s the definitive use of false analogy. Or maybe it’s not, because indentured servitude in restaurants is a serious issue too. www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5946802/ampwww.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/03/29/521971468/in-u-s-restaurants-bars-and-food-trucks-modern-slavery-persistsI’m also not talking about workers intentionally sending signals for help. I’m talking about basic human recognition of emotional state. You are welcome to keep your head firmly in the sand and rationalize it away. That’s your prerogative. Just a few things no charges for human trafficking or sex slaves, yet they are charging the Johns. Women were free to leave anytime they wanted. There room had no locks or things like chains. The fridge was stacked with food. Yet the best was Kraft and the women were hugging multiple times. I just have to ask does that change your thoughts on the case? |
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Post by telson13 on Feb 27, 2019 0:51:09 GMT -5
www.ccn.com/robert-kraft-charged-but-backlash-builds-with-sham-sex-trafficking-stingJust a few things no charges for human trafficking or sex slaves, yet they are charging the Johns. Women were free to leave anytime they wanted. There room had no locks or things like chains. The fridge was stacked with food. Yet the best was Kraft and the women were hugging multiple times. I just have to ask does that change your thoughts on the case? “But press-whore prosecutors love salacious headlines and having celebrities tangentially caught in their webs because it raises their profiles” I would question the validity of any “news” source as heavily editorialized and with as sensationalist writing as this. The rationalization “they could leave at any time” is routinely used as a defense in cases of domestic abuse. I find it patently ludicrous. Abusers are successful by wielding psychological, not physical, power. Especially with regards to women who may be here illegally and financially/socially dependent on the “business” owner. They’re in a catch-22...facing deportation, possibly criminal charges, and being sent back to their native country with nothing to show for their struggle but years of shame knowing what they went through. Btw, said owner was previously prosecuted for human trafficking in Oxford, MA. Charges/indictments are dependent not on “truth,” but what can be proven in court. I think this has to play out, particularly on the investigation end, before we really can draw any conclusions about what charges were actually filed. And even then, conviction may not accurately reflect “truth,” but only what can be proven. With regards to your previous question re: legalization/decriminalization, I agree. Morality issues aside (and those are largely dictated by a society that generally adheres to and was founded in mores based on Western religion), it’s the only way to dramatically reduce abuses. That’s been demonstrated both with abortion and alcohol prohibition. Again, my point was that, if the human trafficking part is true, there should be enough red flags to someone frequenting the establishment to know something fishy was going on. Maybe Kraft really was totally oblivious, or maybe the women there were willingly engaged in their line of work. So far, i find that hard to believe. I’m not vilifying Kraft...as I said, there are degrees. But yes, I do find the behavior of frequenting what effectively amounts to a brothel, run by a woman previously charged with and prosecuted for human trafficking, and apparently engaged in the same, more troublesome than, say, a trip to Amsterdam or Nevada to pay for consensual sex with a woman who willingly chose her line of work. |
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 27, 2019 8:43:27 GMT -5
Maybe blame the people running the actual slavery ring instead of the Johns. Who the f*** is doing a personal investigation for months to determine whether the prostitutes are there freely or not before partaking in their services? If it were Robert Kraft running the slavery ring and some 50 year old grocery store manager as the John, no one would be questioning anyone but Robert Kraft and the other guy wouldn't even be in the story.
This is just an annoying conversation. If Robert Kraft didn't partake in this, it's not like the sex slave trade wouldn't exist. The only people guilty of anything are the ones actually running things.
Maybe I'll start a new discussion on how people who are not anti-war are causing the deaths of millions of people in this world and not the people who are deciding all of these people deserve to die.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 27, 2019 8:43:30 GMT -5
www.ccn.com/robert-kraft-charged-but-backlash-builds-with-sham-sex-trafficking-stingJust a few things no charges for human trafficking or sex slaves, yet they are charging the Johns. Women were free to leave anytime they wanted. There room had no locks or things like chains. The fridge was stacked with food. Yet the best was Kraft and the women were hugging multiple times. I just have to ask does that change your thoughts on the case? Free to leave and go where? They don’t know anyone here - barely speak the language and are from a completely different place. It’s easy for us to say “just go to the police and get help”, but that’s not reality in their minds. First, they probably don’t even know how to do that. Second they have probably been told their families back at home are in danger and thirdly, we know captors don’t always escape when they have the chance. It’s mind control. TNelson, you’re driving me crazy with this continuous talk that someone going to these places should be able to spot the difference between a sexy slave and a willing worker thru things like body language etc. as much as you want to believe it to be true it’s just an absurd contention. These body rub places are every where and frequented by men of all different social classes. People are simply thinking about getting a release. This isn’t a subject that is widely talked about and educated. Best thing that could come from this case would be something like that but only way it doesn’t go in one ear and out the other is if there’s a prolonged education campaign on it. |
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 27, 2019 11:14:09 GMT -5
Yeah, the women were definitely not "free to leave anytime they wanted." Wow.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 27, 2019 11:51:45 GMT -5
www.ccn.com/robert-kraft-charged-but-backlash-builds-with-sham-sex-trafficking-stingJust a few things no charges for human trafficking or sex slaves, yet they are charging the Johns. Women were free to leave anytime they wanted. There room had no locks or things like chains. The fridge was stacked with food. Yet the best was Kraft and the women were hugging multiple times. I just have to ask does that change your thoughts on the case? Free to leave and go where? They don’t know anyone here - barely speak the language and are from a completely different place. It’s easy for us to say “just go to the police and get help”, but that’s not reality in their minds. First, they probably don’t even know how to do that. Second they have probably been told their families back at home are in danger and thirdly, we know captors don’t always escape when they have the chance. It’s mind control. TNelson, you’re driving me crazy with this continuous talk that someone going to these places should be able to spot the difference between a sexy slave and a willing worker thru things like body language etc. as much as you want to believe it to be true it’s just an absurd contention. These body rub places are every where and frequented by men of all different social classes. People are simply thinking about getting a release. This isn’t a subject that is widely talked about and educated. Best thing that could come from this case would be something like that but only way it doesn’t go in one ear and out the other is if there’s a prolonged education campaign on it. Well having no where to go and being held against your will just isn't the samething. You're making a lot of assumptions. We have no clue what is really going on besides this wasn't a worst case type crap like they were locked up, drugged up, and forced to work at gun point type crap. They could have agreed to this as payment to get into the Country, have a place to stay and people that could show them the Country. Human trafficking doesn't always involve people taken against their will. Per Wiki bonded labor is the #1 form of human trafficking, which is a lot different than their families being threatened or mind control. In their minds they aren't leaving not because they can't but because they need to payoff a debt. It's wrong on a ton of levels, yet it's a lot different than the worst type of human trafficking that Telson is thinking about. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 27, 2019 11:56:37 GMT -5
Yeah, the women were definitely not "free to leave anytime they wanted." Wow. You base that on? I've seen zero proof they were being held against their will. Just a ton of assumptions because their was a human trafficking investigation that hasn't produced any charges and they lived at the place. |
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Post by philarhody on Feb 27, 2019 12:52:09 GMT -5
Speaking of the NFL Draft combine,
Two melanin-light, intelligent route runners are PFF's highest graded receivers at the Combine. I'll be interested to see what Whiteside and Isabella run, because I doubt Belichick uses a first on them.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 27, 2019 13:02:02 GMT -5
Yeah, the women were definitely not "free to leave anytime they wanted." Wow. You base that on? I've seen zero proof they were being held against their will. Just a ton of assumptions because their was a human trafficking investigation that hasn't produced any charges and they lived at the place. Yes, just a ton of assumptions that there was human trafficking because -There was a human trafficking investigation -And they lived at the place -A bunch of arrest warrants were just issued -The police went out of their way to say that the workers involved were victims. Prolly nothing to see here. Sounds to me just like a bunch of women who like living in a commune and charge reasonable prices. Woof. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 27, 2019 13:18:40 GMT -5
You base that on? I've seen zero proof they were being held against their will. Just a ton of assumptions because their was a human trafficking investigation that hasn't produced any charges and they lived at the place. Yes, just a ton of assumptions that there was human trafficking because -There was a human trafficking investigation -And they lived at the place -A bunch of arrest warrants were just issued -The police went out of their way to say that the workers involved were victims. Prolly nothing to see here. Sounds to me just like a bunch of women who like living in a commune and charge reasonable prices. Woof. They can be victims of human trafficking and still have been able to leave if they wanted too. Those aren't mutually exclusive. |
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Post by texs31 on Feb 27, 2019 13:20:29 GMT -5
Not that it speaks to the larger points but I heard reports (granted, it was on T&R so take that for what it's worth)that the women in the videos with Kraft are being investigated as part of the trafficking group (the traffickers not the trafficked - sorry if the terminology is incorrect and sounding like I'm making fun of the issue).
Unlike many of the woman involved, they did not live at the spa and lived a very public lifestyle. FWIW
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 27, 2019 14:38:33 GMT -5
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 27, 2019 14:48:55 GMT -5
Just my two cents but if Lawrence drops to pick 32 it's going to be a red flag. So anyone dropping to 32 is a red flag then.... i don’t get the difference. Warren Saap, Rob Gronkowski, Randy Moss, Russell Wilson, Tom Brady, Marcus Cannon all had red flags. More risk, more gain sometimes and BB has shown a penchant for taking those guys who fall. Damion Easley would be a failure and there are others. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 27, 2019 14:58:32 GMT -5
So anyone dropping to 32 is a red flag then.... i don’t get the difference. Warren Saap, Rob Gronkowski, Randy Moss, Russell Wilson, Tom Brady, Marcus Cannon all had red flags. More risk, more gain sometimes and BB has shown a penchant for taking those guys who fall. Damion Easley would be a failure and there are others. Yea, I mean even all that aside let’s just be real. They are picking at the end of the first round. Every prospect is flawed and even more so at that point in the draft. We need to just accept that |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 27, 2019 15:06:22 GMT -5
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 27, 2019 15:09:25 GMT -5
Making it legal is a very interesting and drawn out conversation, many levels of debate .
You can go on websites like seekingarrangement.com and find willing partners.
What is the difference between porn and prostitution?
I understand the human trafficking debate, would legalizing it end the abuse that can go along with it? No but would it put a dent in the abuse many endure, probably.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 27, 2019 15:18:51 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 27, 2019 16:27:10 GMT -5
Those two trades are interesting because Miller and Hand looked really good as rookies. Also two of our biggest need areas right now in WR and DT. I mean Miller started 4 games, had seven TDs as a rookie. Hand started 8 games 3.5 sacks. Time will tell, but that might not look brilliant if they don't nail those two picks. Like I'd trade pick 56 for Miller right now, I don't know enough about Hand, but he's the type of guy we need. A young DT that can get some sacks. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 27, 2019 17:04:04 GMT -5
Those two trades are interesting because Miller and Hand looked really good as rookies. Also two of our biggest need areas right now in WR and DT. I mean Miller started 4 games, had seven TDs as a rookie. Hand started 8 games 3.5 sacks. Time will tell, but that might not look brilliant if they don't nail those two picks. Like I'd trade pick 56 for Miller right now, I don't know enough about Hand, but he's the type of guy we need. A young DT that can get some sacks. They just won a SB. Those trades are home runs. You can’t play that draft game anyways. Patriots didn’t and likely wouldn’t have drafted those players. On another note, I knew guy was really good last year but his PFF grade was over 90 which is elite. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 27, 2019 17:24:02 GMT -5
So many trades I was mistaken they turned that 51st pick into a 56 this year plus a 4th that was Hand, that turned into a 3rd. So it's Miller versus a 2nd and third this year, plus Sam. Which ia a lot better, yet Miller still looks good.
RJP you can 100% play that game. That's how you find out if the Patriots crazy amount of trades makes sense. If Miller is a stud of those picks fail it was a bad move by the Patriots.
What does our Superbowl have to do with it? Adding a guy like Miller would only make them deeper and better. None of those picks went towards Brown, McCourty or even Patterson.
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