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2019 Patriots Offseason Thread
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 3, 2019 11:42:14 GMT -5
Yea 7.38 isn't that good, then again he's not a slot guy. Not even close. My boy Miles Boykins currently has the best 3 cone time for WRs at 6.77. Given his size that's crazy impressive. Also currently has the second fastest 20 yard time to that Ohio State burner. Frankly for the Patriots a team that loves 3 cone times the group of WR isn't good. Renfrew was good at 6.8, but Samuel 7.03, Ridley 7.22, Isabella 6.95 kinda disappointed. Especially Ridley given his production, now a very poor combine. His numbers kinda back up his lack of production. Fant was the top TE by a mile at 6.81, Kaden Smith was impressive at 7.08, Irv Smith wasn't at 7.32. This years Edelman looks like QB Easton Stick. 6'1" 224 4.62 40, 6.65 3 cone, 4.05 20 yard. Those are impressive numbers given his size. He's not a QB in the NFL, yet WR, maybe safety, heck special team player. He screams Patriot pick in the late rounds. Guys in that 4-7 range at WR that had good 3 cone times Stanley Morgan WR Nebraska and Cody Thompson WR Toledo. Irv Smith is a really good route runner and a great (from what I’ve heard) run blocker. I don’t want a pure receiver like Fant. And yes i pick Fant as my first movies pick to Patriots. Ridley is at least supposedly a really good route runner. That will make a difference. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 3, 2019 13:40:36 GMT -5
www.nfl.com/prospects/irv-smith?id=3219534d-4900-0018-f675-8c060d792d35I just have to ask who says he's a great run blocker? Or a great route runner? They like his upside, but say he's neither of those things right now. He's crazy small to be a good blocker. Patriots TE blockers have been 255 pounds and up over the last ten plus years and the smallest is Ryan Izzo at 255 taken last year. His comp is Ben Watson who was a receiving TE for us. So yea those numbers aren't great for a receiving TE. Just my two cents but I'm not taking him in the first unless he can greatly increase those numbers at his pro day. Fant who I think is just like him, I'd consider. Wouldn't really want too, but he could be an elite weapon in the passing game. He could be like Hernandez. If there is one thing the Patriots love its 3 cone drill time. Almost every single WR brought in recent memory was elite or just about in 3 cone drill time from Berrios, Mitchell, Cooks, Edelman, Hogan, Amendola, Dorsett, Boyce etc. Only exceptions are Dobson but he was crazy fast and Welker over a decade ago. Dobson was a bust and Welker was awesome yet had a crazy elite 20 yard time. Ridley just isn't elite or even close to it with anything, he's average to below. I'm not taking him in the 2nd round, he'd have to really drop for me to pick him or really improve those numbers at his pro day. Right now he looks like a 3rd to 4th round type guy and I'd be leaning towards the latter right now.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 3, 2019 14:22:11 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 3, 2019 14:46:42 GMT -5
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Post by philarhody on Mar 3, 2019 15:25:01 GMT -5
I was hoping he’d run a 5.4. His chances of reaching the Pats at 32 diminished greatly after that ridiculous display of athleticism. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 3, 2019 15:31:28 GMT -5
I was hoping he’d run a 5.4. His chances of reaching the Pats at 32 diminished greatly after that ridiculous display of athleticism. But if he wasn’t athletic you wouldn’t want him... if he’s taken then someone else falls... Not to give UMass a wet dream but Tillery is really growing on me. I love me some Lawrence but Tillery may be a better option. Different players. |
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Post by philarhody on Mar 3, 2019 15:43:53 GMT -5
I was hoping he’d run a 5.4. His chances of reaching the Pats at 32 diminished greatly after that ridiculous display of athleticism. But if he wasn’t athletic you wouldn’t want him... if he’s taken then someone else falls... Football athleticism is more nuanced than 340 lb men running 40 yards in spandex. Belichick has been mining talent pools of football athleticism for ever. But thanks for giving us all a primer on how the draft works. Anthony Nelson just ran the second fastest three cone among down lineman. He looks like a Patriot. He’s definitely moving up boards |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 3, 2019 19:11:33 GMT -5
Metcalf  |
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 3, 2019 19:35:00 GMT -5
Metcalf Run away! |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 4, 2019 2:43:35 GMT -5
But if he wasn’t athletic you wouldn’t want him... if he’s taken then someone else falls... Football athleticism is more nuanced than 340 lb men running 40 yards in spandex. Belichick has been mining talent pools of football athleticism for ever. But thanks for giving us all a primer on how the draft works. Anthony Nelson just ran the second fastest three cone among down lineman. He looks like a Patriot. He’s definitely moving up boards You wouldn't want him if he ran a 5.4 that is really bad. You'd be drafting Danny Shelton 2.0 and while he's ok, he's not worth a first round pick. Even Valentine at 330 or so they claim ran a 5.19. The Patriots love 3 cone drills for most positions, but not DT and DE. Flowers, Wise, Brown, Butler, Shelton, and Guy all weren't good in the 3 cone drills. Only Rivers was among all recent guys. The two traits Bill seems to love are size and strength along the defensive line. I like Nelson, but not because he just had the 4th best 3 cone time for DEs. I love his size and production. 9.5, 7.5 and 6 sacks in three years is really good. The fact he rated in the middle of the teens for Edge players just shows how deep this class is. Todd McShay calls it the best class of defensive lineman in 20 years. |
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Post by philarhody on Mar 4, 2019 12:09:36 GMT -5
Football athleticism is more nuanced than 340 lb men running 40 yards in spandex. Belichick has been mining talent pools of football athleticism for ever. But thanks for giving us all a primer on how the draft works. Anthony Nelson just ran the second fastest three cone among down lineman. He looks like a Patriot. He’s definitely moving up boards You wouldn't want him if he ran a 5.4 that is really bad. You'd be drafting Danny Shelton 2.0 and while he's ok, he's not worth a first round pick. Even Valentine at 330 or so they claim ran a 5.19. The Patriots love 3 cone drills for most positions, but not DT and DE. Flowers, Wise, Brown, Butler, Shelton, and Guy all weren't good in the 3 cone drills. Only Rivers was among all recent guys. The two traits Bill seems to love are size and strength along the defensive line. I like Nelson, but not because he just had the 4th best 3 cone time for DEs. I love his size and production. 9.5, 7.5 and 6 sacks in three years is really good. The fact he rated in the middle of the teens for Edge players just shows how deep this class is. Todd McShay calls it the best class of defensive lineman in 20 years. Lawrence does things on tape that Danny Shelton never did. I was being facetious about a 5.4, but I think NE’s chances of drafting Lawrence at 32 are less now that he ran a 5.04 40 than if he had run a 5.4. I’m not saying Belichick cares about 3 cones for down linemen. Nelson looks like a Patriot because he can hold his ground and shed on the edge and get home without running around tackles. But there is also a major correlation between 3 cone scores and high production for edge players, patriot scouting preferences aside. |
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 4, 2019 12:20:38 GMT -5
3 cone makes so much more sense. Football players have to change directions really quickly a lot more than they need to run at full speed for 40 yards.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 4, 2019 12:24:18 GMT -5
3 cone makes so much more sense. Football players have to change directions really quickly a lot more than they need to run at full speed for 40 yards. The splits on the 40 is probably more important. Some guys have build up speed which only matters once they are sprung |
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Post by texs31 on Mar 4, 2019 13:08:12 GMT -5
Looks like Lawrence hurt his leg.
EDIT: Just saw Rappaport report that it's minor.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 4, 2019 13:49:34 GMT -5
You wouldn't want him if he ran a 5.4 that is really bad. You'd be drafting Danny Shelton 2.0 and while he's ok, he's not worth a first round pick. Even Valentine at 330 or so they claim ran a 5.19. The Patriots love 3 cone drills for most positions, but not DT and DE. Flowers, Wise, Brown, Butler, Shelton, and Guy all weren't good in the 3 cone drills. Only Rivers was among all recent guys. The two traits Bill seems to love are size and strength along the defensive line. I like Nelson, but not because he just had the 4th best 3 cone time for DEs. I love his size and production. 9.5, 7.5 and 6 sacks in three years is really good. The fact he rated in the middle of the teens for Edge players just shows how deep this class is. Todd McShay calls it the best class of defensive lineman in 20 years. Lawrence does things on tape that Danny Shelton never did. I was being facetious about a 5.4, but I think NE’s chances of drafting Lawrence at 32 are less now that he ran a 5.04 40 than if he had run a 5.4. I’m not saying Belichick cares about 3 cones for down linemen. Nelson looks like a Patriot because he can hold his ground and shed on the edge and get home without running around tackles. But there is also a major correlation between 3 cone scores and high production for edge players, patriot scouting preferences aside. That athleticism that allows him to run that fast is why he's different on tape. Like I said before and people freaked out if he dropped it was because he was more like Shelton and you don't want that. Some of the biggest draft fallers like Sapp,Wilfork, Moss, and Rodgers never made it to pick 32 and it was character concerns or fit with them. I've always thought if he was the athlete people said he's more a top 10 pick than pick 32 type player. I don't really worry because there are so many other DTs in this class. I have no clue about the correlation between 3 cone drill time and edge players. Frankly I think it matters more if your an OLB. 4-3 DEs and DT just don't change direction like that on most plays. Not like guys like Van Noy and Hightower do when they rush the passer and then drop back into coverage. Belichick is so much more about winning in the trenches on DL than those freak athletes. Like even Chandler Jones wasn't a top 3 cone guy even in the first round. I will say Nelson would be the lowest bench press guy in recent memory at only 18, which isn't great given his weight. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 4, 2019 13:58:39 GMT -5
3 cone makes so much more sense. Football players have to change directions really quickly a lot more than they need to run at full speed for 40 yards. All depends on the position like does 3 cone matter for offensive linemen or defensive linemen? They are rarely if ever going to stop and completely change direction twice like the 3 cone drill. Almost every other position 100%, yet speed really matters for certain positions like WR and CB. A lot of the people that know the Patriots just pick out the top 3 cone drill guys and if they fit include them as possible picks. At times the Patriots roster was like the HOF for top combine 3 cone times. |
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 4, 2019 14:09:23 GMT -5
3 cone makes so much more sense. Football players have to change directions really quickly a lot more than they need to run at full speed for 40 yards. All depends on the position like does 3 cone matter for offensive linemen or defensive linemen? They are rarely if ever going to stop and completely change direction twice like the 3 cone drill. Almost every other position 100%, yet speed really matters for certain positions like WR and CB. A lot of the people that know the Patriots just pick out the top 3 cone drill guys and if they fit include them as possible picks. At times the Patriots roster was like the HOF for top combine 3 cone times. 10 yard and 20 yard is still a lot better to judge linemen than the 40 is. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 4, 2019 14:29:51 GMT -5
All depends on the position like does 3 cone matter for offensive linemen or defensive linemen? They are rarely if ever going to stop and completely change direction twice like the 3 cone drill. Almost every other position 100%, yet speed really matters for certain positions like WR and CB. A lot of the people that know the Patriots just pick out the top 3 cone drill guys and if they fit include them as possible picks. At times the Patriots roster was like the HOF for top combine 3 cone times. 10 yard and 20 yard is still a lot better to judge linemen than the 40 is. For me it all depends on the position. Outside WRs, outside CBs, FS will have a ton of plays where they run 40 yards. Tell me Jason McCourtys 40 time didn't matter on that touchdown saving breakup in the endzone? |
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 4, 2019 14:39:47 GMT -5
10 yard and 20 yard is still a lot better to judge linemen than the 40 is. For me it all depends on the position. Outside WRs, outside CBs, FS will have a ton of plays where they run 40 yards. Tell me Jason McCourtys 40 time didn't matter on that touchdown saving breakup in the endzone? Well I specified linemen there. I mean if someone is running fly routes only and you have to keep up with them, then it's definitely necessary unless the QB has a hard time with deep throws (which a lot of them do). But if the WR makes a cut, keeping up with him is all about the ability to quickly change direction. Ditto for the WR, the ability to make a cut and get open is all about the ability to quickly change direction. Elite 40 speed will definitely help with recovery ability if you get beat though, if the QB doesn't make a good throw. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 4, 2019 14:40:00 GMT -5
Lawrence does things on tape that Danny Shelton never did. I was being facetious about a 5.4, but I think NE’s chances of drafting Lawrence at 32 are less now that he ran a 5.04 40 than if he had run a 5.4. I’m not saying Belichick cares about 3 cones for down linemen. Nelson looks like a Patriot because he can hold his ground and shed on the edge and get home without running around tackles. But there is also a major correlation between 3 cone scores and high production for edge players, patriot scouting preferences aside. Like I said before and people freaked out if he dropped it was because he was more like Shelton. Narrator: no one freaked |
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Post by philarhody on Mar 4, 2019 16:59:21 GMT -5
3 cone makes so much more sense. Football players have to change directions really quickly a lot more than they need to run at full speed for 40 yards. All depends on the position like does 3 cone matter for offensive linemen or defensive linemen? They are rarely if ever going to stop and completely change direction twice like the 3 cone drill. Almost every other position 100%, yet speed really matters for certain positions like WR and CB. A lot of the people that know the Patriots just pick out the top 3 cone drill guys and if they fit include them as possible picks. At times the Patriots roster was like the HOF for top combine 3 cone times. "(The 3-Cone Drill is) the single most important drill at the combine, plain and simple," an anonymous NFL Scout told SportsDay Dallas. "I want to know how the player performs in space and this helps show change of direction, explosiveness and overall athleticism. There is validity to this test translating to the football field." At the time this article was written, the top 21 sack artists of the previous 3 years all had better than average three cone times. So yes, the three cone does matter for down linemen. Getting past blockers and redirected toward the quarterback takes an extraordinary amount of flexibility and coordination. If you watch Flowers on tape, you’ll notice most of his sacks come off stunts, bull rushes, and sheer effort. He’s a nice player but no Chandler Jones. |
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Post by philarhody on Mar 5, 2019 12:22:32 GMT -5
Dexter Lawrence put up 36 reps on the 225. Mock draftables puts that in the 96 percentile for draftees. Impressive. Then I noticed that he did it with a SEVEN FOOT WINGSPAN (97 percentile, 84 inches). That has to
be a record. Unbelievable athletic specimen.
Would love to know when Jeffery Simmons is going to play again.
You guys think Winovich is too small for an edge in New England? He moves really well. I wonder if Belichick would draft him as a linebacker who can rush on passing downs. It’s essentially what Hightower and Van Noy do anyway, and is a nifty way of avoiding the market innefficiency for expensive edge rushers/defensive ends.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 5, 2019 13:26:10 GMT -5
Dexter Lawrence put up 36 reps on the 225. Mock draftables puts that in the 96 percentile for draftees. Impressive. Then I noticed that he did it with a SEVEN FOOT WINGSPAN (97 percentile, 84 inches). That has to be a record. Unbelievable athletic specimen. Love to see how Kyler Murray is going to throw over linemen like that. Sounds like there's no way he's dropping to 32 now. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 5, 2019 13:30:36 GMT -5
Dexter Lawrence put up 36 reps on the 225. Mock draftables puts that in the 96 percentile for draftees. Impressive. Then I noticed that he did it with a SEVEN FOOT WINGSPAN (97 percentile, 84 inches). That has to be a record. Unbelievable athletic specimen. Would love to know when Jeffery Simmons is going to play again. You guys think Winovich is too small for an edge in New England? He moves really well. I wonder if Belichick would draft him as a linebacker who can rush on passing downs. It’s essentially what Hightower and Van Noy do anyway, and is a nifty way of avoiding the market innefficiency for expensive edge rushers/defensive ends. He’s bigger than Rivers was... shorter but heavier. His 3 cone was exactly the same and 40 was faster. But Rivers bench reps were way higher so the issue could be strength. Upper body strength anyways. I said this before but I’d be shocked if Simmons were even on the Patriots draft board so he’s not even on my radar. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 5, 2019 13:51:01 GMT -5
Dexter Lawrence put up 36 reps on the 225. Mock draftables puts that in the 96 percentile for draftees. Impressive. Then I noticed that he did it with a SEVEN FOOT WINGSPAN (97 percentile, 84 inches). That has to be a record. Unbelievable athletic specimen. Love to see how Kyler Murray is going to throw over linemen like that. Sounds like there's no way he's dropping to 32 now. I don’t know, there are a ton of players, especially linemen. It really depends; I hate to be captain obvious but not everyone wants that position so the teams that do need to want it more than someone else. There were a ton of great combines for guys. Take Burns. UMass said it’d be crazy for him to go top 10 like some mocks had him then he shows up 15 pounds heavier and runs a blazing 40. That’s just one example. A couple receivers are going to go high because of combines. Some teams desperately need offensive linemen and the top DBs didn’t have great combined which may make them fall but not out of the first. Lawrence just doesn’t play a high priority position and on top of it he had the failed drug test so that’s going to be an issue |
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