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Post by jimed14 on Mar 14, 2019 16:21:07 GMT -5
Bears signed Ha Ha Clinton-Dix for 1/$3.5 million. That's probably the best free agent signing in any sport.
Several safeties far worse than him have signed for over $20M.
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Post by texs31 on Mar 14, 2019 16:48:58 GMT -5
Lacosse in the fold now too.
Meanwhile, NE DOES fill the big bodied DT role with former rival Mike Pennel.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 14, 2019 16:56:38 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 14, 2019 17:04:06 GMT -5
Given Simon got more than I would have guessed. McCourty can't be crazy cheap, right he's gotta be 3-4 million. Heck even Dorsett in this market had to be 2-3 million. A bunch of minimum guys was 100% expected and always happens. Yet Pennel has to be a lot more than a minimum guy. A lot more mid sized signings than I thought we'd see. They must have a bunch of deals lined up to free money.
I like it, they have addressed most of the weak spots with depth and frankly higher quality options than I thought they would.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 14, 2019 17:05:33 GMT -5
Bears signed Ha Ha Clinton-Dix for 1/$3.5 million. That's probably the best free agent signing in any sport. Several safeties far worse than him have signed for over $20M. He took less to go there, win and have a huge year to get paid next year. Smart move for both the team and player. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 14, 2019 19:05:26 GMT -5
Deleted -
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 14, 2019 19:36:20 GMT -5
Bedard is on radio talking about what I am trying to say. Pats right now are in a cap bond because of all the veteran contracts and lack of core players on rookie deals. In 2014 when they won the SB they had the 10th youngest roster with a ton of young cheap core players. This year they were the oldest. If you want to keep this run going you HAVE to get younger and cheaper. Add: they may already have some of these guys (and I think they are), but that’s speculation. They need to piggyback drafts and the good news is I think they got one last year. 90% of your young core you keep talking about having to have is gone. Didn't you just post how much they overturn the team year in and year out? It's what they do every year. Yea you need to be bringing in young guys every year. The older roster and mid tier contracts are by design though, not because they lack talent or can't sign other players. I'd say they are the exact opposite of a cap bond team frankly they have sooo much money coming off next year. Cap bond teams are the one releasing tons of guys having huge amounts of dead cap space. That isn't the Patriots, not even close. You gotta stop listening to these guys that are slamming the Patriots for what made them soo good. The main reason the Patriots make it work unlike other teams is trades. Losing Flowers and not being able to replace him was going to be a huge loss. Bam they get Bennett, two years low money. Just a brilliant move that solved that issue. Then they get guys like Van Noy and McCourty who they trade for to resign on the cheap. So many ways to add talent and the draft is only one of them. RJP what is the rank of the Patriots age for each of the 6 Championships? I'm willing to bet most years they were older. They don't have to do anything. I really can't understand your thought process after Bill has built teams like 15 different ways and now your 100% focused this draft holds the keys to our future. It could be epic given the amount of picks or he could trade half of them into next year, trade for a bunch of Veterans and do what we normally do. Bill just doesn't look at things the way these guys you're talking about do. I’m going to ignore the rest of the post because everything you are praising them for and trying to say I don’t understand I’ve literally praised them for and the last part about having to stop listening to god only knows who is just nonsense. But you asked about the average age of their teams historically so I compiled the list: You’ll notice a big jump 2 years ago after they skipped that draft. Early on with a QB on a rookie deal it’s easier to have older teams and they did. Then those teams got too old and they had to turn over the roster. You don’t have to turn it over thru the draft - Bill is a master at finding a way one way or another but it makes it easier to have longer success if you do. The recent run started in 2014 when they had great young players.. see how young they were.. these last 2 years they’ve gotten older and their stars are at the ends of their deals. If they miss on this draft will the team fall apart? No, they are too crafty for that, but remember the first time they won 3 titles in 4 years it took them 10 years to win another and they “only” went to 2 SB in 9 years. It was a drought for them. Piggy backing another good draft after what we expect to get from last years is key. If you want to disagree with that go for it. Just say you disagree - don’t tell me how good they’ve been at adapting when I already know and acknowledge as much over and over again. 2001 27.1 2002 27.6 2003: 28 2004: 27.2 2005: 27.8 2006: 27.4 2007: 27.6 2008: 27.8 2009: 27.5 2010: 26.7 2011: 26.6 2012: 26 2013: 26 2014: 25.5 2015: 26 2016: 25.8 2017: 27.2 2018: 27.2 |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 14, 2019 19:38:03 GMT -5
Tate to the Giants, per Schefter. EDIT: 4 yrs, 37.5m with 23 guaranteed Ok what are they thinking? The Gaints just can't pick a path and it's crazy. About what I expect for a deal. Honestly, after trading OBJ, I think they should have dealt Barkley. What’s the point in having him? Running backs shelf life’s are short and he’s going to cost a mega deal to extend by the time they are any good so better to cash him in now and just rebuild. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 15, 2019 1:38:52 GMT -5
www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2014_roster.htm90% of your young core you keep talking about having to have is gone. Didn't you just post how much they overturn the team year in and year out? It's what they do every year. Yea you need to be bringing in young guys every year. The older roster and mid tier contracts are by design though, not because they lack talent or can't sign other players. I'd say they are the exact opposite of a cap bond team frankly they have sooo much money coming off next year. Cap bond teams are the one releasing tons of guys having huge amounts of dead cap space. That isn't the Patriots, not even close. You gotta stop listening to these guys that are slamming the Patriots for what made them soo good. The main reason the Patriots make it work unlike other teams is trades. Losing Flowers and not being able to replace him was going to be a huge loss. Bam they get Bennett, two years low money. Just a brilliant move that solved that issue. Then they get guys like Van Noy and McCourty who they trade for to resign on the cheap. So many ways to add talent and the draft is only one of them. RJP what is the rank of the Patriots age for each of the 6 Championships? I'm willing to bet most years they were older. They don't have to do anything. I really can't understand your thought process after Bill has built teams like 15 different ways and now your 100% focused this draft holds the keys to our future. It could be epic given the amount of picks or he could trade half of them into next year, trade for a bunch of Veterans and do what we normally do. Bill just doesn't look at things the way these guys you're talking about do. I’m going to ignore the rest of the post because everything you are praising them for and trying to say I don’t understand I’ve literally praised them for and the last part about having to stop listening to god only knows who is just nonsense. But you asked about the average age of their teams historically so I compiled the list: You’ll notice a big jump 2 years ago after they skipped that draft. Early on with a QB on a rookie deal it’s easier to have older teams and they did. Then those teams got too old and they had to turn over the roster. You don’t have to turn it over thru the draft - Bill is a master at finding a way one way or another but it makes it easier to have longer success if you do. The recent run started in 2014 when they had great young players.. see how young they were.. these last 2 years they’ve gotten older and their stars are at the ends of their deals. If they miss on this draft will the team fall apart? No, they are too crafty for that, but remember the first time they won 3 titles in 4 years it took them 10 years to win another and they “only” went to 2 SB in 9 years. It was a drought for them. Piggy backing another good draft after what we expect to get from last years is key. If you want to disagree with that go for it. Just say you disagree - don’t tell me how good they’ve been at adapting when I already know and acknowledge as much over and over again. 2001 27.1 2002 27.6 2003: 28 2004: 27.2 2005: 27.8 2006: 27.4 2007: 27.6 2008: 27.8 2009: 27.5 2010: 26.7 2011: 26.6 2012: 26 2013: 26 2014: 25.5 2015: 26 2016: 25.8 2017: 27.2 2018: 27.2 Why are you posting these articles and saying crap about mid tier free agents? Says the draft is important, that is a no brainer. It's all this other crap trying to justify it that just makes zero sense. The age is just like I thought, they were always older. The outliers are when they are younger. It makes no difference if your QB is on a rookie level deal or not. That is for other teams that spend big on stars and go for those short runs. They had Bledsoes money and then his dead money on the books after trading him in the beginning. The interesting thing about Football is that they don't like to pay older players a lot of money. Justin Coleman gets 4 years 36 million, McCourty gets 2 years 10 million. We traded Coleman for a 7th round draft choice two years ago. If you can get older free agents on good deals and make them fit it's the right and smart move. Use the draft for value, depth and filling holes you can't in free agency. Football isn't Baseball, one good draft can make four bad ones not even matter. There isn't a 3-5 year development period. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 15, 2019 1:47:38 GMT -5
Ok what are they thinking? The Gaints just can't pick a path and it's crazy. About what I expect for a deal. Honestly, after trading OBJ, I think they should have dealt Barkley. What’s the point in having him? Running backs shelf life’s are short and he’s going to cost a mega deal to extend by the time they are any good so better to cash him in now and just rebuild. For what? Like how in the world do you get the right amount of value? Yea I hate taking a RB # 1, yet he was unreal. Over 2,000 total yards, great running, unreal receiver, 15 TDs. You have another four years before you even need to pay him. The franchise tag isn't a bad number for a RB either. Just get a young QB and younger players to play with him, not older WRs. Not a guy that plays slot just like Sheppard does. Just pick a path and stick with it. Barkley is young, you can rebuild around him. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 15, 2019 1:52:45 GMT -5
One thing that is interesting almost all of our WRs are slot guys or play better in the slot. That might just be how it worked out, yet this draft is loaded with those big outside WRs. Like more than I can ever remember, you need to search for non outside WRs which just isn't normal.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 15, 2019 5:52:46 GMT -5
I’m going to ignore the rest of the post because everything you are praising them for and trying to say I don’t understand I’ve literally praised them for and the last part about having to stop listening to god only knows who is just nonsense. But you asked about the average age of their teams historically so I compiled the list: You’ll notice a big jump 2 years ago after they skipped that draft. Early on with a QB on a rookie deal it’s easier to have older teams and they did. Then those teams got too old and they had to turn over the roster. You don’t have to turn it over thru the draft - Bill is a master at finding a way one way or another but it makes it easier to have longer success if you do. The recent run started in 2014 when they had great young players.. see how young they were.. these last 2 years they’ve gotten older and their stars are at the ends of their deals. If they miss on this draft will the team fall apart? No, they are too crafty for that, but remember the first time they won 3 titles in 4 years it took them 10 years to win another and they “only” went to 2 SB in 9 years. It was a drought for them. Piggy backing another good draft after what we expect to get from last years is key. If you want to disagree with that go for it. Just say you disagree - don’t tell me how good they’ve been at adapting when I already know and acknowledge as much over and over again. 2001 27.1 2002 27.6 2003: 28 2004: 27.2 2005: 27.8 2006: 27.4 2007: 27.6 2008: 27.8 2009: 27.5 2010: 26.7 2011: 26.6 2012: 26 2013: 26 2014: 25.5 2015: 26 2016: 25.8 2017: 27.2 2018: 27.2 Why are you posting these articles and saying crap about mid tier free agents? Says the draft is important, that is a no brainer. It's all this other crap trying to justify it that just makes zero sense. The age is just like I thought, they were always older. The outliers are when they are younger. It makes no difference if your QB is on a rookie level deal or not. That is for other teams that spend big on stars and go for those short runs. They had Bledsoes money and then his dead money on the books after trading him in the beginning. The interesting thing about Football is that they don't like to pay older players a lot of money. Justin Coleman gets 4 years 36 million, McCourty gets 2 years 10 million. We traded Coleman for a 7th round draft choice two years ago. If you can get older free agents on good deals and make them fit it's the right and smart move. Use the draft for value, depth and filling holes you can't in free agency. Football isn't Baseball, one good draft can make four bad ones not even matter. There isn't a 3-5 year development period. Great so we agree the draft is key this year... It’s not always that way tho.. 2016 didn’t much matter this season is more important and the team clearly agrees. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 15, 2019 6:04:22 GMT -5
Mike Pennel is a sneaky good signing... can’t wait to see the numbers on him but he’s a really good run defender. For his PFF grades he was so much better than Brown and Shelton overall and especially in run D.
Pennels grades:
Defense: 87.1
Run: 87
Pass rush: 74.5
Shelton
Defense: 78.8
Run: 78.9
Pass rush: 63.3
Brown:
Defense: 64.4
Run: 64.0
Pass rush: 60.6
It’d be typically Patriots to to get a better player a lot cheaper because they ignore name value.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on Mar 15, 2019 7:23:15 GMT -5
I love watching Bill build his team. So far during FA:
Traded for:
#1/2 DE Bennett
Re-signed
#3/4 CB JMac (ceiling of a 2)
#3/4 DL Simon
#4/5 WR Dorsett
Signed
#4/5 WR Ellington (has some ceiling still, though not young)
#5/6 WR Harris
#2/3 DT Pennel -- Seems like a perfect Brown replacement
#4/5 Special Teams/S Brooks
#3 Special Teams/RB Bolden
#3 TE Lacrosse
Looks to me like biggest immediate needs are:
Swing Tackle with fill-in starter upside
WR 2/3 (and maybe 4)
TE 2 (with catching upside)
DE talent & depth
DT depth
Depth with Upside on OL
Oh, and a kicker.
MAYBE a Brady replacement?
That's not a bad shopping list, and opens up the draft. I still maintain WR will be the hardest to fill. I'm guessing a trade and a 2nd/3rd round pick.
With 6 top picks, teams willing to do pick swaps and lots of free agents still around I'm feeling good so far.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on Mar 15, 2019 7:34:45 GMT -5
overthecap.com/compensatory-draft-picks-cancellation-chart/Right now the Patriots have cancelled out all their lower level free agent losses on the comp pick formula. I think anyone else they sign would cancel the projected 3rd rounders for Flowers/Brown. That might take them out of the remainder of the FA market and "limit" them to released players and trades.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 15, 2019 7:36:23 GMT -5
Agree on Pennel, I found some very good highlights of him. Some of them were against the Pats and you know BB knows what he is getting based on scouting and playing against him twice a year. Love it when BB grabs under rated guys from within the division, long list of success there.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 15, 2019 7:44:44 GMT -5
Mike Pennel is a sneaky good signing... can’t wait to see the numbers on him but he’s a really good run defender. For his PFF grades he was so much better than Brown and Shelton overall and especially in run D. Pennels grades: Defense: 87.1 Run: 87 Pass rush: 74.5 Shelton Defense: 78.8 Run: 78.9 Pass rush: 63.3 Brown: Defense: 64.4 Run: 64.0 Pass rush: 60.6 It’d be typically Patriots to to get a better player a lot cheaper because they ignore name value. Ignoring name value is a great observation. I was thinking the same thing when considering those grades and the fact Brown got a better deal than Pennel. Of course teams do their own scouting but why did NY let Pennel go? Oh yeah the Pats have the better coach. |
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Post by texs31 on Mar 15, 2019 8:17:53 GMT -5
They need someone to punt the ball too.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 15, 2019 8:24:56 GMT -5
overthecap.com/compensatory-draft-picks-cancellation-chart/Right now the Patriots have cancelled out all their lower level free agent losses on the comp pick formula. I think anyone else they sign would cancel the projected 3rd rounders for Flowers/Brown. That might take them out of the remainder of the FA market and "limit" them to released players and trades. I don’t think that’s how the comp formula works tho. They’d need to sign a high tier free agent to cancel out Brown and Flowers. For instance a Pennel is never going to cancel out the comp pick of one of those guys; money isn’t the only factor - playing time that next season matters too as do certain performance related things. The NFL doesn’t actually share the formula. There are also only 32 comp picks given each year so that’s a factor as well. Also, I highly doubt Bolden or Brooks even factors into the comp pick formula. They are so much further down the pecking order than other guys. Not to mention the Pats are likely to lose more free agents as well. |
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on Mar 15, 2019 8:48:58 GMT -5
overthecap.com/compensatory-draft-picks-cancellation-chart/Right now the Patriots have cancelled out all their lower level free agent losses on the comp pick formula. I think anyone else they sign would cancel the projected 3rd rounders for Flowers/Brown. That might take them out of the remainder of the FA market and "limit" them to released players and trades. I don’t think that’s how the comp formula works tho. They’d need to sign a high tier free agent to cancel out Brown and Flowers. For instance a Pennel is never going to cancel out the comp pick of one of those guys; money isn’t the only factor - playing time that next season matters too as do certain performance related things. The NFL doesn’t actually share the formula. There are also only 32 comp picks given each year so that’s a factor as well. Also, I highly doubt Bolden or Brooks even factors into the comp pick formula. They are so much further down the pecking order than other guys. Not to mention the Pats are likely to lose more free agents as well. I was trying to read more on comp formula but it's tough to follow how far up picks can be cancelled. In 2018 the Redskins had a 6th round signing cancel a 3rd round. (Terrelle Pryor cancelled DeSean Jackson). Also, based on last year, anyone over $1m annual counted in formula, so unless Bolden or Brooks are league minimum (they might be) they'll probably count. But comp picks are the world's big mystery, so who knows. |
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 15, 2019 8:53:20 GMT -5
I don’t think that’s how the comp formula works tho. They’d need to sign a high tier free agent to cancel out Brown and Flowers. For instance a Pennel is never going to cancel out the comp pick of one of those guys; money isn’t the only factor - playing time that next season matters too as do certain performance related things. The NFL doesn’t actually share the formula. There are also only 32 comp picks given each year so that’s a factor as well. Also, I highly doubt Bolden or Brooks even factors into the comp pick formula. They are so much further down the pecking order than other guys. Not to mention the Pats are likely to lose more free agents as well. I was trying to read more on comp formula but it's tough to follow how far up picks can be cancelled. In 2018 the Redskins had a 6th round signing cancel a 3rd round. (Terrelle Pryor cancelled DeSean Jackson). Also, based on last year, anyone over $1m annual counted in formula, so unless Bolden or Brooks are league minimum (they might be) they'll probably count. But comp picks are the world's big mystery, so who knows. I find it impossible to believe that the Pats don't know how it works. |
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on Mar 15, 2019 9:21:56 GMT -5
I was trying to read more on comp formula but it's tough to follow how far up picks can be cancelled. In 2018 the Redskins had a 6th round signing cancel a 3rd round. (Terrelle Pryor cancelled DeSean Jackson). Also, based on last year, anyone over $1m annual counted in formula, so unless Bolden or Brooks are league minimum (they might be) they'll probably count. But comp picks are the world's big mystery, so who knows. I find it impossible to believe that the Pats don't know how it works. I meant that I don't know, not that the team doesn't know. |
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 15, 2019 9:25:04 GMT -5
I find it impossible to believe that the Pats don't know how it works. I meant that I don't know, not that the team doesn't know. I know what you meant, I just meant that there's not much of a point in worrying about it. I'd just assume that they're not screwing up. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 15, 2019 9:46:14 GMT -5
They still have:
Hogan
Gostkowski
Ryan
Mcclellan
Shelton
Waddle
Hill
As free agents to possibly lose...
I’m interested to see Bolden and Brooks contracts... my guess is Bolden is under 1m but Brooks could be over.
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Post by texs31 on Mar 15, 2019 10:08:05 GMT -5
From Nick's page:
Cancel Out CFAs Lost With CFAs Gained For Each Team
Finally, one each team’s list of CFAs lost and gained are determined and valued, one-to-one cancellations are applied. Cancellations work as follows:
1.A CFA gained by a team cancels out the highest-valued available CFA lost that has the same round valuation of the CFA gained.
2.If there is no available CFA lost in the same round as the CFA gained, the CFA gained will instead cancel out the highest-available CFA lost with a lower round value.
3.A CFA gained will only cancel out a CFA lost with a higher draft order if there are no other CFAs lost available to cancel out.
Any team that has more CFAs lost than CFAs gained will then be eligible for compensatory picks for the CFAs lost that were not cancelled out by CFAs gained.
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