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2019 Patriots Offseason Thread
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 8, 2019 20:48:17 GMT -5
I really don’t know how you come to the conclusions you do so I’m not even going to try. Any criticism and concern someone brings up on a player and you act like that player is hated and thought of as useless and you twist everything to fit that thought process. In any event. Here’s the latest report from Rapoport who’s very good and also connected to the Patriots. He was a mess here, it’s sad because he did play well all things considered and would be a beast with a full year, but it looks as if a lot of things were buried. www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001015584/article/josh-gordon-watches-from-afar-as-pats-play-in-sb-liii“As for his Patriots tenure, while all seemed positive until Gordon broke the news of his absence, all was not well. He was late several times and battled other issues related to handling responsibility and promptness. During a late-season game, the plan was for Gordon to sit a quarter due to a variety of infractions and he was informed of that penalty, although it never ended up happening.” Terms like downward spiral and infractions mounting for weeks.. Another report has friends describing his time in New England as hitting rock bottom. Also his failed drug test was for more than just alcohol and marijuana. I just hope the guy is getting real help and not just trying to play football again. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 9, 2019 4:57:54 GMT -5
Come on now, I'm twisting things? A nice debate on is it really hard for the Patriots to find WR due to their system or is it because they won't spend big draft resources and money like other teams do. Has become trying to tear down Gordon with a ton of false claim to try and support your claim that the Patriots getting WR is really hard. There just isn't any examples to support that claim as every talented WR they brought in has produced very well over the years. Gordon though is a prime example that even a anti patriot type player if talented can make a big impact within our offense! www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/patriots-had-no-idea-josh-gordon-suspension-was-looming-hope-to-continue-to-support-him/"Gordon had presented no discipline problems or significant issues, a team source said" Yea I'm going to buy what team sources and what his teammates say. Heck Rapoport is talking about that report that Bill was asked about after the game and he said he knew nothing about Gordon and any issues and he didn't have his playing time reduced. So yea I'm going to take Bills word and another unnamed team source over just sources. Bill doesn't lie and didn't give his standard we don't discuss in house matters or just move on without talking about. He killed that report! We all talked about it when it happened. How does any of this have to do with Gordon and his ability to pick up our offense quickly? It's no secret how I reached my conclusions I'm just repeating what a ton of players, coaches, and team personal have said about Gordon. Along with watching the games and looking at his stats. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 9, 2019 9:49:56 GMT -5
Come on now, I'm twisting things? A nice debate on is it really hard for the Patriots to find WR due to their system or is it because they won't spend big draft resources and money like other teams do. Has become trying to tear down Gordon with a ton of false claim to try and support your claim that the Patriots getting WR is really hard. There just isn't any examples to support that claim as every talented WR they brought in has produced very well over the years. Gordon though is a prime example that even a anti patriot type player if talented can make a big impact within our offense! www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/patriots-had-no-idea-josh-gordon-suspension-was-looming-hope-to-continue-to-support-him/"Gordon had presented no discipline problems or significant issues, a team source said" Yea I'm going to buy what team sources and what his teammates say. Heck Rapoport is talking about that report that Bill was asked about after the game and he said he knew nothing about Gordon and any issues and he didn't have his playing time reduced. So yea I'm going to take Bills word and another unnamed team source over just sources. Bill doesn't lie and didn't give his standard we don't discuss in house matters or just move on without talking about. He killed that report! We all talked about it when it happened. How does any of this have to do with Gordon and his ability to pick up our offense quickly? It's no secret how I reached my conclusions I'm just repeating what a ton of players, coaches, and team personal have said about Gordon. Along with watching the games and looking at his stats. You’re taking all your information off reports immediately following and during Gordon’s time here. The report I just gave you is the most recent one and contradicts all of it. So if you want to go off of old information versus a recent report that’s on you. No one tore Gordon down. Bringing up the guys unreliability and issues have everything to do with whether you want to build your team to rely on him. This debate is about NEXT YEAR. We’ve moved on from last year and picking up the offense quickly. We have a difference in opinion on that and I’ve already said Gordon would be a beast on the team if he could be there from the beginning and for the full year. So we agree he can help the team immensely. I asked this question.. Better question is should they be messing around with him next year? He can clearly be a weapon but he’s a guy you can’t rely on. You responded with this. What reports are you talking about? I've seen one report that he was late and it had no context. I've seen zero he was MIA all the time reports. I've actually seen a ton of reports saying the opposite. How hard of a worker he was and he was great. Given the way the team has treated him I believe that 100%. Do you really believe Bill put up with a guy consistently late and MIA all the time? For example it wasn't till the bye week when everyone went home that something happened. So I gave you a recent reliable report that someone who’s not just looking for the answer they want would look at with a lot of concern since it’s from a reliable source. It also makes sense all things considered. Teammates are always going to give positive answers about a guy who they like. Gordon is very likable and very fragile and very talented and I have no doubt he worked hard. Hi teammates will answer direct questions in a positive way. You can also bring up a correlation to the Hernandez situation. NOT COMPARING THE PEOPLE. But Bill made concessions with Hernandez off the field issues because he was so good on the field. He literally didn’t just look the other way when Hernandez was in danger due to being a thug he sent him to California to hide out. It’s not a surprise that he made concessions for a guy with mental As far as next year you act like he's gone 100%. If he comes back ok you push your 5th WR off the team, no biggie. You also need to put a plan in place for the bye week because by all accounts he was awesome till he wasn't around the team. All in all its on him, yet the Patriots are giving him support that the Browns never did. I truly feel if he was on the Browns he would have been done after like a month. He'll get another chance wigh us if he gets reinstated. I 100% believe that and some reports have said there is a chance that could happen by spring training. False, I brought up concern about them structuring their team relying on him as the true one and said it’s ideal to have him on the team. To refresh your memory. It would be ideal to have a focused healthy Gordon from the start of training camp but how can you ever rely on that guy? It’s a weird situation. If he’s on the team he’s a number 1 or 2 outside receiver that you have to play. But if you structure your team relying on that then what the hell do you do when he’s off the wagon and suspended again? I hope the proceed like he’s not there and make him the 4th receiver coming into the year with a 5th who’s a top young prospect either thru the draft or a failed guy elsewhere. I know you’re in the middle of being take committed but I’m a little surprised that you’re completely dismissive of that Rapoport report. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 9, 2019 10:40:33 GMT -5
Anyways, I’m tired of the Gordon talk. They need to build their team like he’s not there anyways then hope for the best so let’s just move on.
The defense was obviously key, but perhaps the team MVP this year and thru the playoffs was the offensive line. Trent Brown was a huge part of that. He was a beast both pass blocking and especially run blocking (don’t have his grades for each but he was dominant at times in both). The smart money is on him being gone, but should they try and keep him over Flowers? Can they keep them both? If they keep Brown does that mean you move Cannon? Wynn missing all of last year makes it difficult. No idea what he can do off of a torn Achilles. But he was a first rd pick. If they resigned Brown then they could look at next year as a transition year with Wynn being the guy who fills in at guard and tackle plus plays the extra o lineman in jumbo. Thuney has been great but maybe you let him walk after next season and Wynn replaces him so you pay Brown over Thuney...
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Post by beasleyrockah on Feb 9, 2019 12:16:15 GMT -5
Anyways, I’m tired of the Gordon talk. They need to build their team like he’s not there anyways then hope for the best so let’s just move on. The defense was obviously key, but perhaps the team MVP this year and thru the playoffs was the offensive line. Trent Brown was a huge part of that. He was a beast both pass blocking and especially run blocking (don’t have his grades for each but he was dominant at times in both). The smart money is on him being gone, but should they try and keep him over Flowers? Can they keep them both? If they keep Brown does that mean you move Cannon? Wynn missing all of last year makes it difficult. No idea what he can do off of a torn Achilles. But he was a first rd pick. If they resigned Brown then they could look at next year as a transition year with Wynn being the guy who fills in at guard and tackle plus plays the extra o lineman in jumbo. Thuney has been great but maybe you let him walk after next season and Wynn replaces him so you pay Brown over Thuney... I'd definitely keep Flowers over Brown if the money is similar. For the current team needs I think Flowers is more important and I believe he's the superior player. Before Brown came to the Patriots he struggled maintaining his weight and conditioning, and you always have to wonder how a player will respond to signing a monster FA deal. Perhaps the Patriots are convinced they can continue to get the best out of him, but they drafted and developed Flowers while only getting Brown in a contract year, so they should know Flowers better. By all accounts Trey Flowers is the ideal Patriot. Also, not that it means much for the present, but lets not forget that Brown was acquired for peanuts last offseason and the Patriots/Dante helped him establish himself (like they've done for many offensive linemen). Brown graded as a mid-level tackle but he'll likely command top LT money due to desperation and being the #1 available guy (like Solder last year). FWIW I'd give Flowers up to 16-17m per year while Brown would be around 12m per year, and if I had to guess what they'll actually sign for I'd project 15m per for Flowers and $14m per for Brown. I also think I'd rather pay Thuney than Brown due to the discrepancy between the salaries of LT vs. guards. Thuney has steadily improved and I'm not sure he's done improving, I wouldn't be surprised if he made the Pro Bowl next year (not that the Pro Bowl is full of the players who earned it). Wynn's injury is concerning of course, but he's on track to be ready for camp and Dante vouched for him as a first round tackle just last season, so that's good enough for me. He couldn't be any more different from Brown when it comes to size, but between Dante's coaching ability and Brady's ability to get the ball out quickly I'd roll the dice here. It's hard to put Wynn in a backup role when Thuney and Mason are so good and durable. Maybe the team unloads Cannon, but I think Trent Brown will command too much to make that a good value swap. If Brown leaves they'll definitely need to land a quality tackle as Waddle shouldn't be the swing tackle with the uncertainty around Wynn. Maybe a third round pick or another draft pick trade for a veteran like Brown last year. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 9, 2019 12:55:31 GMT -5
Anyways, I’m tired of the Gordon talk. They need to build their team like he’s not there anyways then hope for the best so let’s just move on. The defense was obviously key, but perhaps the team MVP this year and thru the playoffs was the offensive line. Trent Brown was a huge part of that. He was a beast both pass blocking and especially run blocking (don’t have his grades for each but he was dominant at times in both). The smart money is on him being gone, but should they try and keep him over Flowers? Can they keep them both? If they keep Brown does that mean you move Cannon? Wynn missing all of last year makes it difficult. No idea what he can do off of a torn Achilles. But he was a first rd pick. If they resigned Brown then they could look at next year as a transition year with Wynn being the guy who fills in at guard and tackle plus plays the extra o lineman in jumbo. Thuney has been great but maybe you let him walk after next season and Wynn replaces him so you pay Brown over Thuney... I'd definitely keep Flowers over Brown if the money is similar. For the current team needs I think Flowers is more important and I believe he's the superior player. Before Brown came to the Patriots he struggled maintaining his weight and conditioning, and you always have to wonder how a player will respond to signing a monster FA deal. Perhaps the Patriots are convinced they can continue to get the best out of him, but they drafted and developed Flowers while only getting Brown in a contract year, so they should know Flowers better. By all accounts Trey Flowers is the ideal Patriot. Also, not that it means much for the present, but lets not forget that Brown was acquired for peanuts last offseason and the Patriots/Dante helped him establish himself (like they've done for many offensive linemen). Brown graded as a mid-level tackle but he'll likely command top LT money due to desperation and being the #1 available guy (like Solder last year). FWIW I'd give Flowers up to 16-17m per year while Brown would be around 12m per year, and if I had to guess what they'll actually sign for I'd project 15m per for Flowers and $14m per for Brown. I also think I'd rather pay Thuney than Brown due to the discrepancy between the salaries of LT vs. guards. Thuney has steadily improved and I'm not sure he's done improving, I wouldn't be surprised if he made the Pro Bowl next year (not that the Pro Bowl is full of the players who earned it). Wynn's injury is concerning of course, but he's on track to be ready for camp and Dante vouched for him as a first round tackle just last season, so that's good enough for me. He couldn't be any more different from Brown when it comes to size, but between Dante's coaching ability and Brady's ability to get the ball out quickly I'd roll the dice here. It's hard to put Wynn in a backup role when Thuney and Mason are so good and durable. Maybe the team unloads Cannon, but I think Trent Brown will command too much to make that a good value swap. If Brown leaves they'll definitely need to land a quality tackle as Waddle shouldn't be the swing tackle with the uncertainty around Wynn. Maybe a third round pick or another draft pick trade for a veteran like Brown last year. I agree with most of this; the price tag though for Flowers is steep and I’m not sure he’s that kind of guy. He is an ideal Patriot though and I can’t remember the last top guy Bill drafted and developed that he let go for simply a comp pick... Ty Warren? Usually they will trade the guy if they don’t think they can sign him. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 9, 2019 13:04:29 GMT -5
Cya later Flowers if that is his price point. I love the guy. He's easily my #1 guy to resign. Yet 16 to 17 million? That's almost 10% of the cap. He's not that type of player. I was thinking more like 12 to 14 million. I mean the franchise tag is 17.1 million for next year. You can't workout a deal I franchise him to keep him or trade him. Patriots don't backload deals, so there's no difference. If your trading him I'm not even asking for a ton, just like a 2nd round pick. Trade him quick and make sure he gets paid.
I'm not paying Brown 14 million, that's why you traded Cooks to get Wynn. The injury sucks and it's risky, but you don't have a choice given our needs.
Some context, Flowers was 6th at DE for PFF, Brown was 32nd at T last year. It's not even close who the better player is.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Feb 9, 2019 13:56:47 GMT -5
Cya later Flowers if that is his price point. I love the guy. He's easily my #1 guy to resign. Yet 16 to 17 million? That's almost 10% of the cap. He's not that type of player. I was thinking more like 12 to 14 million. I mean the franchise tag is 17.1 million for next year. You can't workout a deal I franchise him to keep him or trade him. Patriots don't backload deals, so there's no difference. If your trading him I'm not even asking for a ton, just like a 2nd round pick. Trade him quick and make sure he gets paid. I'm not paying Brown 14 million, that's why you traded Cooks to get Wynn. The injury sucks and it's risky, but you don't have a choice given our needs. Some context, Flowers was 6th at DE for PFF, Brown was 32nd at T last year. It's not even close who the better player is. To be clear I think Flowers will ultimately sign for about $15m per year but I personally would set his open market value around 16-17m per year. I don't think Belichick will go that high though and the franchise tag is unlikely as well. I wouldn't be completely shocked if the final number was 12-14m either, especially if he re-signs, but he'll be one of the top guys on the market and that alone should push it to an uncomfortable level. If the Patriots are in the ballpark he seems like a candidate to take slightly less to stay, but if a team is going to overpay like the Giants did with Solder last year there's not much that can be done. The free agents who are better than Flowers will likely get franchised and a lot of teams have the cap space to make a splash, so I'd be surprised if there's not at least one team offering 15m per year...whether he'll take it if the Pats are only offering about 12-14m remains an open question. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 9, 2019 16:01:08 GMT -5
Advantage the Pats have on Flowers is he has low sack totals. I can’t recall a DE or DL getting that kind of money without being a big pressure guy. Bad news is they just won the Super Bowl and those tend to inflate guys values.
There are a lot of DEs on the market tho or there could be.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 9, 2019 16:38:40 GMT -5
The Patriots only have one defensive coach returning next year. Steve Belichick. That kind of turnover is not good.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 9, 2019 17:43:54 GMT -5
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Post by costpet on Feb 9, 2019 22:59:48 GMT -5
Some writer predicted that the Pats will make a big trade this year. He thinks a good draft choice could land A.J.Green from the Bengals. I like that. They have a new head coach who wants to build his own team and an extra draft choice would help. We really need some good WR's and A.J. is one of the best.
I wonder if Malcomb Mitchell is recovering and could be back. He was excellent when he was healthy.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 10, 2019 8:14:05 GMT -5
Some writer predicted that the Pats will make a big trade this year. He thinks a good draft choice could land A.J.Green from the Bengals. I like that. They have a new head coach who wants to build his own team and an extra draft choice would help. We really need some good WR's and A.J. is one of the best. I wonder if Malcomb Mitchell is recovering and could be back. He was excellent when he was healthy. AJ Green is 31, has one year left on his contract and his cap hit would be just under 12m if they traded for him. It doesn’t add up. Patriots cap space is at a premium and they don’t trade high picks for expensive players With one year of control left. |
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Post by costpet on Feb 10, 2019 10:29:11 GMT -5
I wonder how losing all these coaches will affect them next year. Another just went to KC. They don't have a big staff to begin with. They still have the Big 3...BB, Mac, and Scars, but it still has to have some effect. Any thoughts?
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Feb 10, 2019 14:15:40 GMT -5
The whole D line and WR corps needs to be overhauled, there isn’t that much cap space even after cuts and restructures. They’ll probably need to use that cap space on a strong middle class or extending people.
There are twelve draft picks... now its likely they just trade and defer some of them to next year but there is really no way around using multiple picks on WR and D line.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 10, 2019 14:16:48 GMT -5
The way I look at it is what is your head coach? A defensive or offensive guy? Bill is a defensive guy. So our offensive coordinator is a lot more important. You look at the Superbowl do you think that was Flores? I just feel that was 90% Bill. Look at the offense, I feel that was like 60% Josh, heck maybe more.
Greg Schiano brings a lot more knowledge than Flores. I can just imagine Bill and him spending crazy hours talking and planning our D. He'll be able to contribute a lot more knowledge, not just be the guy that gets the players to implement Bill's plan. The respect Bill has shown this guy is just not something I can overlook. I can't overlook Schiano's coaching tree either, having worked under two of the best coaches in College football history. The fact he won 11 games at Rutgers. We all know Bill loves to promote guys, yet he brought in a guy this time. Wanna know why Bill didn't fight for Flores or do his normal your not ready like he's done in the past? Look no further than Greg Schiano.
This isn't a slam against Flores either. I think in time he can become a very good head coach.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 10, 2019 14:41:55 GMT -5
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Feb 10, 2019 21:06:24 GMT -5
Do we move on from Gostkowski? Seems like cap room will be at a premium and he’s missed a lot of field goals and XPs in the past few post seasons.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 10, 2019 21:14:21 GMT -5
Do we move on from Gostkowski? Seems like cap room will be at a premium and he’s missed a lot of field goals and XPs in the past few post seasons. With all the picks they have, they could draft 2-3 to compete for the spot for league minimum. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 11, 2019 5:16:06 GMT -5
Do we move on from Gostkowski? Seems like cap room will be at a premium and he’s missed a lot of field goals and XPs in the past few post seasons. With all the picks they have, they could draft 2-3 to compete for the spot for league minimum. No one does that and it would be a colossal waste of draft picks. I wouldn’t say anything but this is the second time already where people have suggested over drafting at a position (WR) because they have so many draft picks. This isn’t realistic. Not to mention most kickers aren’t even drafted. The Patriots also need these picks to start over turning the roster at multiple positions due to their cap position. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 11, 2019 5:17:21 GMT -5
Do we move on from Gostkowski? Seems like cap room will be at a premium and he’s missed a lot of field goals and XPs in the past few post seasons. They could possibly but he’s one of the best kickers in football and Bill puts a lot of value on special teams. My guess is they resign him but they bring in some competition. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 11, 2019 6:14:40 GMT -5
To build off a previous post:
The Patriots do not have enough players on rookie contracts at the moment. They are filled with players in the middle range which adds up and it produces a lot of fairly paid veterans who are good but don’t really provide any excess value above their contracts.
Hopefully they’ve started that trend with guys like Sony Michel, J C Jackson, Jonathan Jones, Wynn and Bentley. Maybe even Sam and Berrios... that’s just not enough though. They NEED to nail this draft with guys who can contribute for years to come. There are some positions of greater need than others but outside running back, Center and maybe corner, they have a need for young cheap talent everywhere.
Found this nugget that relates to Trey Flowers... Every edge defender who’s EVER been paid at least 11m has recorded at least 1 double digit sack season. Flowers career high is 7.5. He will break this mold, but to expect him to destroy it is asking a lot. However, he has momentum so we will see. I’m going to guess he back at around 13.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 11, 2019 9:49:25 GMT -5
Yea I don't know what you expect, but we seem to have more guys with upside on rookie deals than in a very long time.
Not only guys like Wise, Butler, Jackson, Crossen, Thuney, Jones, Bentley, Davis, Rivers, Hollister and Michel guys that played last year.
Then your upside guys like Wynn, Dawson, Allen, Berrios, McCarron, Sam, Croston, Harris and Herron.
I'm sure I missing a few more also, add in this years pick and things are going to get tricky. They had the most players on IR in all of football last year, mainly as a way to keep guys.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 11, 2019 10:57:59 GMT -5
Yea I don't know what you expect, but we seem to have more guys with upside on rookie deals than in a very long time. Not only guys like Wise, Butler, Jackson, Crossen, Thuney, Jones, Bentley, Davis, Rivers, Hollister and Michel guys that played last year. Then your upside guys like Wynn, Dawson, Allen, Berrios, McCarron, Sam, Croston, Harris and Herron. I'm sure I missing a few more also, add in this years pick and things are going to get tricky. They had the most players on IR in all of football last year, mainly as a way to keep guys. The Patriots had more players than any team in the NFL with a cap hit over $1m so I guess my answer would be for them to lower that total by having more young players making less money... pretty reasonable. I understand it’s part of their strategy for a deep team but it’s not entirely sustainable. They have some high priced veterans nearing the ends of their time too and they need to keep the pipeline moving. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say this is a very important draft. Fortunately, they are in position to capitalize.  On another note, one thing we haven’t mentioned is the Patriots might be finally receiving a 3.5m cap credit for Hernandez because apparently murder is a contract violation. |
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Feb 11, 2019 23:25:28 GMT -5
The money we have spent seems to be pretty efficiently allocated. The guys we spend money on are all pretty good. McCourty has a bit of a high cap number but he is still a good player.
Dwyane Allen seems like an obvious cut, but other than that, and maybe a few restructures and extensions, they should be in good shape with this draft class to bring in the guys they need and maybe sign a few guys in the good but not great tier.
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