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2019 Patriots Offseason Thread
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Post by ghostofrussgibson on Feb 17, 2019 16:21:59 GMT -5
All NFL teams have issues - even SB champs. Among what I admire about NE is how they devote $$$. They'll let guys go. The fact NE gets compensatory picks is awesome! Nothing is forever - and Brady/Belichick are HUGE factors, but as long as they're both in their roles, NE has a legit shot. And, as fans, that's all we can expect/hope for. I've rooted for the Pats since growing up in RI back in the 60s. Tough times then. I did my time. Enjoying the ride now!
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 17, 2019 20:59:05 GMT -5
Why should a person change their mind if they truly believe in something? I won't give up and I take pride in that. I post about topics I truly believe in. I'm not posting about every single topic all day long in 18 different threads. Good old debates that only turned into arguments when a certain poster flips his lid every single time. Like chill out smoke some weed because bitching about me while he's doing the same exact thing is rather crazy. It's not that you won't change your mind. It's that you never STFU until you beat everyone into submission when they get to the point that they don't care about the argument anymore. You "win" arguments because people give up talking since it's obvious that you'll got on forever. It gets so old and you're trying to make the accepted views on soxprospects.com to be only your views and no one else's. Maybe you should just go write books where no one argues with you. If you say so, the guy with over 3 times my posts. Wonderful feature called the block button on this site! |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 18, 2019 8:52:04 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 18, 2019 9:39:13 GMT -5
I think you can count on Izzo being your blocking TE replacing Allen. He shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Gronk though. They really wanted to keep him on the active roster. He was injured and they were going to carry him on the 53 man roster so they could bring him back during the season. Then something happened and they had to IR him.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Feb 18, 2019 9:48:20 GMT -5
Mike Reiss said yesterday Gronk is still working out at Gillette.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 18, 2019 11:35:57 GMT -5
I think you can count on Izzo being your blocking TE replacing Allen. He shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Gronk though. They really wanted to keep him on the active roster. He was injured and they were going to carry him on the 53 man roster so they could bring him back during the season. Then something happened and they had to IR him. I hope so, Allen and Gronk both had some off games last year but at their best they are extremely good blockers and make a big impact. If Izzo is on that level and can bring an iota of pass catching that’d be a great swap for Allen. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 18, 2019 11:36:20 GMT -5
Mike Reiss said yesterday Gronk is still working out at Gillette. He’s definitely coming back unless there’s a contract issue that drives him away. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 18, 2019 15:07:55 GMT -5
I think you can count on Izzo being your blocking TE replacing Allen. He shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Gronk though. They really wanted to keep him on the active roster. He was injured and they were going to carry him on the 53 man roster so they could bring him back during the season. Then something happened and they had to IR him. I hope so, Allen and Gronk both had some off games last year but at their best they are extremely good blockers and make a big impact. If Izzo is on that level and can bring an iota of pass catching that’d be a great swap for Allen. That is his game blocking. That is why the Patriots drafted him. I also will assume he's a better pass catcher because Allen had 3 catches all last year. Not a very high bar. He's a perfect #2 TE for the Patriots. He's on my short list of players that could surprise next year. The bigger question mark for me is Hollister. What is he? Was he just depth or does he have upside as a receiving TE? It seems that question will or could determine how we draft a TE in the draft. Assuming you're right and Gronk is back next year. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 19, 2019 7:36:19 GMT -5
I hope so, Allen and Gronk both had some off games last year but at their best they are extremely good blockers and make a big impact. If Izzo is on that level and can bring an iota of pass catching that’d be a great swap for Allen. That is his game blocking. That is why the Patriots drafted him. I also will assume he's a better pass catcher because Allen had 3 catches all last year. Not a very high bar. He's a perfect #2 TE for the Patriots. He's on my short list of players that could surprise next year. The bigger question mark for me is Hollister. What is he? Was he just depth or does he have upside as a receiving TE? It seems that question will or could determine how we draft a TE in the draft. Assuming you're right and Gronk is back next year. Hollister has entered the stage of “you basically ignore him because of his injuries but you keep him around to see if he can make the team because he does have upside as a receiver.” I don’t think he should affect what they do in the draft at all. He’s incredibly fragile. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 19, 2019 8:45:36 GMT -5
Call me a homer but I've got to list TJ Jones as a good target in free agency at WR. Basically a Hogan replacement guy. Could make a nice number 3rd or 4th WR. He was kinda overshadowed in Detriot with Tate, Jones, Golladay, and Reddick. Very good route runner, something that really fits our offense. The Lions not so much, much more of a get open and I throw it gunslinger type offense. He's kinda the opposite of Dorsett. Doesn't have elite speed or quickness, yet he's always where he needs to be and doesn't drop passes. He's a lot more reliable catching the ball than Dorsett. www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/t.j.-jones?id=2543836 |
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Post by 1toolplayer on Feb 19, 2019 11:05:48 GMT -5
I haven't taken the time to analyze but I'd be interested in comparing the hit rate on boom/bust prospects (whose downside is that they are quickly on another team) vs the Special Team overdrafts (for lack of a better phrase). We spend a lot of time focusing on these "misses" but if we look at other teams, I'm guessing we'll find that they "miss" too. And their misses are bigger (on another team or out of the league quickly). According to something I saw yesterday, the Patriots are the 3rd best team in the NFL in finding value in rounds 3-7. Expanding to UDFA's, they are the best. The "BB can't draft" rhetoric, is probably the most absurd in all of sports. Many of the "STs overdrafts" (really there was only Jordan Richards, but we forget he was the yoked up in the box S they had been coveting forever, he just had the change of direction skills of an alligator) were also under Bob Quinn's reign as scouting director. Since Ossenfort has taken over, we have seen a different approach to their drafts/picks. There has been some bad luck with injuries, and not having 1st rounders in consecutive drafts also played a factor, but the Patriots draft and use their draft capitol better than any team in the NFL. |
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Post by 1toolplayer on Feb 19, 2019 11:08:07 GMT -5
Call me a homer but I've got to list TJ Jones as a good target in free agency at WR. Basically a Hogan replacement guy. Could make a nice number 3rd or 4th WR. He was kinda overshadowed in Detriot with Tate, Jones, Golladay, and Reddick. Very good route runner, something that really fits our offense. The Lions not so much, much more of a get open and I throw it gunslinger type offense. He's kinda the opposite of Dorsett. Doesn't have elite speed or quickness, yet he's always where he needs to be and doesn't drop passes. He's a lot more reliable catching the ball than Dorsett. www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/t.j.-jones?id=2543836Dorsett had a 76% catch rate on his targets and 2.4% drop rate. As 5th string WRs go, you can't get much better than that, and not sure how you can infer he is not reliable. |
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Post by texs31 on Feb 19, 2019 11:09:26 GMT -5
Not sure we should expect anyone who replaces Dorsett (or Dorsett) to catch more than 76% of the balls thrown to him next year but I don't dislike the idea.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 19, 2019 12:49:34 GMT -5
Call me a homer but I've got to list TJ Jones as a good target in free agency at WR. Basically a Hogan replacement guy. Could make a nice number 3rd or 4th WR. He was kinda overshadowed in Detriot with Tate, Jones, Golladay, and Reddick. Very good route runner, something that really fits our offense. The Lions not so much, much more of a get open and I throw it gunslinger type offense. He's kinda the opposite of Dorsett. Doesn't have elite speed or quickness, yet he's always where he needs to be and doesn't drop passes. He's a lot more reliable catching the ball than Dorsett. www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/t.j.-jones?id=2543836Dorsett had a 76% catch rate on his targets and 2.4% drop rate. As 5th string WRs go, you can't get much better than that, and not sure how you can infer he is not reliable. That's kinda the point, Dorsett was good when used as a 5th WR. Very limited targets, he's wide open he doesn't do that bad. Yet try and involve him more and he's not that good. First four games 26 targets 16 receptions, next ten games 16 targets 16 receptions. I want a young WR that can be more than a 5th option. We should draft a guy for the 5th option role as he learns the offense. Brady doesn't trust Dorsett even with his elite tools, if he did the guy would be getting a ton of targets, not 1.6 over the last 10 games. He wasn't even targeted in the Superbowl, nevermind have a catch. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 19, 2019 13:59:41 GMT -5
I disagree on Dorsett. He was pushed aside to get Gordon involved so quoting his last 10 games as a whole doesn’t tell the real story.
Before that he was a solid reliable part of the offense and remember it was his first full offseason with the team and the QB decided not to show up for passing camp. After that he was eased back in vs Miami, had no targets but 2 runs. He was good against the Jets with 5 catches on 5 targets while playing 57% of the snaps.
Against the Chargers he had 4 catches on 5 targets and played 46% of the snaps.
Against the Chiefs he played 37% of the snaps and had a 29 yard TD catch. Which was huge and a difficult catch with a defender interfering with him (no flag thrown).
In the super bowl he wasn’t targeted, was a bad day for the offense but he still played about 36% of the snaps.
Dorsett was in packages with James White in the playoffs. White was a big part of LAC game, hence Dorsett biggest game. White had a decent role vs the Chiefs... so did Dorsett. White was a non-factor in the SB as was Dorsett. It’s not a coincidence it was game plan... same personnel packages. Snap counts are almost identical.
Not trying to argue Dorsett should be the number 1 or 2 guy... hell no. If he were brought back to replace Hogan and there was a receiver to pair with Edelman to take Gordon’s role when he was here, I’d be happy. I think another year in the offense and Brady being here for OTAs would make him even better. He could fill the Dola role possibly (albeit a bit different), but as that 3/4 receiver. He’s better than a 5 tho. If he costs more than 2-3m tho then that’s no good.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 19, 2019 14:29:15 GMT -5
This...  |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 19, 2019 15:46:19 GMT -5
5 games without Gordon 11 catches only 104 yards to end the year. He has elite speed and 3 cone times. He's not a guy you sit unless Brady doesn't trust him. I mean the other options were Hogan and Patterson. He's spent two full seasons here, two playoff runs with three buy weeks of extra practice each year, plus your normal bye week. That's 8 weeks of bye week practices in two years, plus one spring training this year. Not even counting normal practices that is 3 months of practice time with Brady, then normal practices. Now compare that to the trust Gordon got in a fraction of that time. I'd buy he needed more time if he was buried on the depth chart, but he just wasn't. Dorsett hasn't been able to form a bond with either Luck or Brady in four years even though he has elite speed and change of direction skills. It's one thing when it's Cooks, Edelman, and Amendola in front of you, not the guys this year. Brady can make anyone look ok and that's what you saw this year.
You want him to be your 5th option, that isn't bad if the cost is low. He's just not a good fit because he doesn't run good routes, has a very small catch radius for an outside guy and not great hands. Those traits also mean he's a bad option in the slot. He'd fit better is a gunslinger type offense, where they like to just sling it deep all the time. It's funny because if you switch Jones and Dorsett I think they both fit better on the other players team. Stafford's cannon allows him to throw to guys as they get open, unlike Brady's timing offense.
Has any reciever with his experience that didn't have a bond with Brady ever developed one after two years with the team? For years we've taken WRs and we hope they can improve from Johnson, to Jackson, to Boyce, to Dobson just to name a few and they just never did. Yet guys like Branch, Givens and Mitchell bond rather quickly. Even the guys we brought in like Moss, Welker,Cooks, Hogan, Gordon, and Amendola bonded quickly. Brady either trust these guys or he doesn't rather quickly. The one trait seems to be great route running, hence a TJ Jones type guy. I bring it up because we likely can't afford a lot of the top guys as much as we really need one.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 19, 2019 17:06:57 GMT -5
5 games without Gordon 11 catches only 104 yards to end the year. He has elite speed and 3 cone times. He's not a guy you sit unless Brady doesn't trust him. I mean the other options were Hogan and Patterson. He's spent two full seasons here, two playoff runs with three buy weeks of extra practice each year, plus your normal bye week. That's 8 weeks of bye week practices in two years, plus one spring training this year. Not even counting normal practices that is 3 months of practice time with Brady, then normal practices. Now compare that to the trust Gordon got in a fraction of that time. I'd buy he needed more time if he was buried on the depth chart, but he just wasn't. Dorsett hasn't been able to form a bond with either Luck or Brady in four years even though he has elite speed and change of direction skills. It's one thing when it's Cooks, Edelman, and Amendola in front of you, not the guys this year. Brady can make anyone look ok and that's what you saw this year. You want him to be your 5th option, that isn't bad if the cost is low. He's just not a good fit because he doesn't run good routes, has a very small catch radius for an outside guy and not great hands. Those traits also mean he's a bad option in the slot. He'd fit better is a gunslinger type offense, where they like to just sling it deep all the time. It's funny because if you switch Jones and Dorsett I think they both fit better on the other players team. Stafford's cannon allows him to throw to guys as they get open, unlike Brady's timing offense. Has any reciever with his experience that didn't have a bond with Brady ever developed one after two years with the team? For years we've taken WRs and we hope they can improve from Johnson, to Jackson, to Boyce, to Dobson just to name a few and they just never did. Yet guys like Branch, Givens and Mitchell bond rather quickly. Even the guys we brought in like Moss, Welker,Cooks, Hogan, Gordon, and Amendola bonded quickly. Brady either trust these guys or he doesn't rather quickly. The one trait seems to be great route running, hence a TJ Jones type guy. I bring it up because we likely can't afford a lot of the top guys as much as we really need one. Pro football focus grades would disagree with you on pretty much everything other than Brady trust as they don’t have a metric for that... his overall grade was above average... top 70 receiver and his routes and hands graded out above average |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 19, 2019 17:47:39 GMT -5
www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-2019-nfl-free-agency-profile-phillip-dorsettIf his hands and routes are above average than why isn't he good? Why isn't Brady looking his way? The guy ran a 4.28 40 at the combine, with elite 3 cone drill times. He's crazy fast, has great change of direction skills and even a good vertical. Why isn't he playing more snaps over Hogan who PFF has at like 110? The guy had 32 catches and 290 yards. We have the best QB ever and an offensive genius making and running the plays and they aren't playing him or targeting over a guy like Chris Hogan.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 19, 2019 18:12:33 GMT -5
www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-2019-nfl-free-agency-profile-phillip-dorsettIf his hands and routes are above average than why isn't he good? Why isn't Brady looking his way? The guy ran a 4.28 40 at the combine, with elite 3 cone drill times. He's crazy fast, has great change of direction skills and even a good vertical. Why isn't he playing more snaps over Hogan who PFF has at like 110? The guy had 32 catches and 290 yards. We have the best QB ever and an offensive genius making and running the plays and they aren't playing him or targeting over a guy like Chris Hogan. His route tree is different than Hogan’s. His tree is more similar to Edelman and Dola so their roles are different. We both agree it’s not a guy you want being a top option in your offense. We both agree we wouldn’t mind him as depth at reasonable cheap money. We can quibble if he’s a 4th or 5th guys but that’s pointless. My disagreement comes when you start throwing around he has bad hands and runs bad routes. That’s not supported by analysis of people who watch and grade every snap and the hands thing really isn’t supported by the eye test either. The guy catches pretty much everything he can. |
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Post by texs31 on Feb 19, 2019 19:55:26 GMT -5
Dorsett has 71 targets and 51 receptions over the last 2 years (72%). Jones is 49/74 (66%) in that same timeframe.
In games as a top 3 WR by Snap Count, Dorsett is 41/57 (72%), Jones is 31/50 (62%)
In games as top 3 WR by Targets, Dorsett is 42/56 (75%), Jones is 39/60 (65%)
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Post by costpet on Feb 20, 2019 10:41:20 GMT -5
I think this is shaping up to be one of the most interesting off seasons we've had in years. Will the possible retirements, the possible tags, free agents leaving and coming, and a dozen draft picks, the roster could really be in for a change. Add in a slew of coaches who left, Bill will be busy. Luckily we have the best coach who ever lived, so he'll put it together and we'll know by November how he did. The one constant is Brady.
I hope they keep Allen. His value goes beyond yards per kick.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Feb 20, 2019 11:18:28 GMT -5
6 million seems like a lot for Gostkowski. He's seemingly become more unreliable over time and he doesn't deserve to get paid more than Edelman or Lawrence Guy in my opinion.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 20, 2019 11:57:50 GMT -5
I think this is shaping up to be one of the most interesting off seasons we've had in years. Will the possible retirements, the possible tags, free agents leaving and coming, and a dozen draft picks, the roster could really be in for a change. Add in a slew of coaches who left, Bill will be busy. Luckily we have the best coach who ever lived, so he'll put it together and we'll know by November how he did. The one constant is Brady. I hope they keep Allen. His value goes beyond yards per kick. I agree it will be interesting, just one quibble. There’s really not much ado about anything regarding the tags... Gostkowski is the only one I can see as a possible candidate. No Chance they tag Flowers at 18+m they would never carry that tag. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 20, 2019 11:59:29 GMT -5
6 million seems like a lot for Gostkowski. He's seemingly become more unreliable over time and he doesn't deserve to get paid more than Edelman or Lawrence Guy in my opinion. I agree but the tag is closer to 5m than 6. Still more than they’d like but whether we like it or not Gostkowski is one of the best kickers in the game so if he frustrates you then 25 other kickers would down right drive you crazy |
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