SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
2019 Celtics Offseason Thread
|
|
Post by texs31 on May 9, 2019 16:45:04 GMT -5
Trading Hayward in that manner could prove to be a horrible look for a team that would then try to attract FAs.
I don't think we'll ever see the Utah Gordon but I do think he'll end up being significantly better than what we saw this year. If nothing else, I think you need to see what he can do with a full year under his belt (George talked about the tremendous value he gained from playing the last handful of games the year he came back and how it prepared for him to return to form the next year). I actually think he can be the wing version of Al Horford. Do a lot of everything but not score to the extent he used to. Is that worth the max (that's always been the question with AL). I certainly don't think it's worth a desperate attempt to dump the contract.
I think I'm at the point where I want Kyrie back with another star (AD or otherwise) or just build around the young core. Not sure Tatum/Brown will ever be the players we hope they can be if they have to defer to Kyrie.
Heck, I'm not even sure I want Rozier back in a non-Kyrie scenario (though I'd like to get something for him). If you're hoping the Jay's are going to be stars, you need to compliment them with players who will help that help that happen. TR might want his own too much to facilitate that.
I almost need 1 shoe to drop so the rest might be easier to figure out. Right now too many possibilities (and dependencies) for me to figure out what I would like them to do.
|
|
|
|
Post by texs31 on May 9, 2019 18:11:08 GMT -5
Not sure if it happens here but I've seen even "experts" say it on Twitter so I'll mention it here. People are saying that Irving would have to leave 49 Million on the table to sign with another team. That's true if he signs a full term max deal. Per ESPN:
BOS NEW TEAM
19-20: 32.7 32.7
20-21 35.3 34.3
21-22 37.9 36.0
22-23 40.5 37.6
23-24 43.1
TOTAL 189.7 140.6
There is your 49M difference.
However, Kyrie has 8 years under his belt. At 10 years, there is a big jump for the starting salary on a max deal. So whatever team he signs with, it's likely to be a 2 year deal with an opt out on a 3rd. The difference after those 2 years is 1 million. If he decides to wait the full 3 years, the difference is 2.9 million. So if you see a comment that says he needs to leave 49 million on the table to sign with another team, that's not really true given his likely path.
My guess is that folks on here know that but, again, I've seen it so much today already so I thought I'd just get it out of the way here (in case).
|
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 9, 2019 19:49:26 GMT -5
Stevens got the C's back to the playoffs sooner than anyone expected with a bunch of nobodies. Then in 2017 they make it to the ECF with a decent group of players. Then in 2018 he gets them back to the ECF with a different group minus their supposed 2 best players. He has proven he is a very very good coach. What he hasn't proven is if he can coach a guy who thinks he is better than he is and destroys a locker room with his immaturity. Stevens isn't going anywhere and nor should he. Danny needs to have a father/son talk,lecture with Kyrie then go get AD. Either that or they start over and I don't think that is happening. Then again that father/son talk might not go so well. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see any perceived malcontents shipped off, no matter the name on the jersey. Irving and Morris are the obvious suspects, but who really knows where the team thinks the issues were. The message board thinks it's all Kyrie, so minus well ship him to the moon. |
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on May 9, 2019 20:40:06 GMT -5
Trading Hayward in that manner could prove to be a horrible look for a team that would then try to attract FAs. I don't think we'll ever see the Utah Gordon but I do think he'll end up being significantly better than what we saw this year. If nothing else, I think you need to see what he can do with a full year under his belt (George talked about the tremendous value he gained from playing the last handful of games the year he came back and how it prepared for him to return to form the next year). I actually think he can be the wing version of Al Horford. Do a lot of everything but not score to the extent he used to. Is that worth the max (that's always been the question with AL). I certainly don't think it's worth a desperate attempt to dump the contract. I think I'm at the point where I want Kyrie back with another star (AD or otherwise) or just build around the young core. Not sure Tatum/Brown will ever be the players we hope they can be if they have to defer to Kyrie. Heck, I'm not even sure I want Rozier back in a non-Kyrie scenario (though I'd like to get something for him). If you're hoping the Jay's are going to be stars, you need to compliment them with players who will help that help that happen. TR might want his own too much to facilitate that. I almost need 1 shoe to drop so the rest might be easier to figure out. Right now too many possibilities (and dependencies) for me to figure out what I would like them to do. It would be like KD to the Warriors. They made the moves after getting him to agree, not before. |
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on May 9, 2019 20:45:58 GMT -5
I don't think anyone thinks it was 100% Irving, but he was the biggest issue. I don't know how you could think otherwise after watching the playoffs and his comments about shooting more.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on May 9, 2019 22:01:37 GMT -5
It wouldn't surprise me at all to see any perceived malcontents shipped off, no matter the name on the jersey. Irving and Morris are the obvious suspects, but who really knows where the team thinks the issues were. The message board thinks it's all Kyrie, so minus well ship him to the moon. Who cares if it's him or not? He's a fucking choke artist, we have ample evidence. And did you really use the word minus for "might has"? |
|
|
|
Post by texs31 on May 9, 2019 22:04:19 GMT -5
Midas Whale
|
|
|
|
Post by texs31 on May 9, 2019 22:07:34 GMT -5
The message board thinks it's all Kyrie, so minus well ship him to the moon. Who cares if it's him or not? He's a fucking choke artist, we have ample evidence. And did you really use the word minus for "might has"? Is "might has well" a thing? |
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on May 9, 2019 22:15:37 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on May 9, 2019 22:17:18 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on May 9, 2019 22:19:17 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 9, 2019 23:25:04 GMT -5
The message board thinks it's all Kyrie, so minus well ship him to the moon. Who cares if it's him or not? He's a fucking choke artist, we have ample evidence. And did you really use the word minus for "might has"? Choke artist? The dude didn't play well in one playoff series against the best team in the East this year. Would have loved to hear your opinion on Paul Pierce in the early 2000's. Would have probably been the same freaking answer. "Trade Pierce the choke artist because all he had was Antoine Walker on his team, ample evidence. One playoff series." Kyrie Irving has a championship. He hit a game winning shot in a Game 7 in the NBA Finals. That's on his resume. Choke artist? Please!! You know who was a bigger playoff choke artist for Boston before he turned into a postseason hero? David Price. Ohh and you were proud of those Red Sox teams that got bounced in the first round. Go figure. It's just a biased attack on a player you don't like. |
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on May 9, 2019 23:54:28 GMT -5
Absolutely no way Danny has 3 picks and none of them is used on Louis King. He's going to take one look at those arms and go irrational. |
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on May 10, 2019 2:23:47 GMT -5
Who cares if it's him or not? He's a fucking choke artist, we have ample evidence. And did you really use the word minus for "might has"? Choke artist? The dude didn't play well in one playoff series against the best team in the East this year. Would have loved to hear your opinion on Paul Pierce in the early 2000's. Would have probably been the same freaking answer. "Trade Pierce the choke artist because all he had was Antoine Walker on his team, ample evidence. One playoff series." Kyrie Irving has a championship. He hit a game winning shot in a Game 7 in the NBA Finals. That's on his resume. Choke artist? Please!! You know who was a bigger playoff choke artist for Boston before he turned into a postseason hero? David Price. Ohh and you were proud of those Red Sox teams that got bounced in the first round. Go figure. It's just a biased attack on a player you don't like. You mean a young Pierce taking us to ECF with a lot less talent? Walker was maybe the most overrated player in Celtics History and those teams had nothing else. Last year we almost went to the finals, we aren't some no talent team. That's crazy, like give Pierce Horford, Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Morris, Smart, Baynes, etc and it would have been fun to watch. Morris outside of passing might be better than Walker. |
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 10, 2019 2:56:10 GMT -5
Choke artist? The dude didn't play well in one playoff series against the best team in the East this year. Would have loved to hear your opinion on Paul Pierce in the early 2000's. Would have probably been the same freaking answer. "Trade Pierce the choke artist because all he had was Antoine Walker on his team, ample evidence. One playoff series." Kyrie Irving has a championship. He hit a game winning shot in a Game 7 in the NBA Finals. That's on his resume. Choke artist? Please!! You know who was a bigger playoff choke artist for Boston before he turned into a postseason hero? David Price. Ohh and you were proud of those Red Sox teams that got bounced in the first round. Go figure. It's just a biased attack on a player you don't like. You mean a young Pierce taking us to ECF with a lot less talent? Walker was maybe the most overrated player in Celtics History and those teams had nothing else. Last year we almost went to the finals, we aren't some no talent team. That's crazy, like give Pierce Horford, Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Morris, Smart, Baynes, etc and it would have been fun to watch. Morris outside of passing might be better than Walker. Yes the "CHOKE JOB" apparently Paul Pierce pulled off by not making it to the finals that year. Paul Pierce was one of a kind though. Still, you can't call Kyrie a freaking choke artist when he's the reason why Cleveland won Game 7 of their only championship. Choker!!! |
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on May 10, 2019 9:05:31 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on May 10, 2019 11:51:18 GMT -5
www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2002.htmlYou mean a young Pierce taking us to ECF with a lot less talent? Walker was maybe the most overrated player in Celtics History and those teams had nothing else. Last year we almost went to the finals, we aren't some no talent team. That's crazy, like give Pierce Horford, Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Morris, Smart, Baynes, etc and it would have been fun to watch. Morris outside of passing might be better than Walker. Yes the "CHOKE JOB" apparently Paul Pierce pulled off by not making it to the finals that year. Paul Pierce was one of a kind though. Still, you can't call Kyrie a freaking choke artist when he's the reason why Cleveland won Game 7 of their only championship. Choker!!! Pedro I didn't call him a choke artist. He's had his moments playing on crazy talented teams were all he was required to do was score and got one on one coverage because of a guy named LeBron. You know one of the best players to ever play the game. Yet he forced his way off the team to be the man, a true #1 player on a championship team. In that role he choked and it's the worst case I can ever remember for a Celtics player in my 20 years watching the team. As you know I've never been his biggest fan, yet I never thought he could be that bad. You can't blame it on talent, which was my main point. The team without him almost went to the finals. Are the Bucks better than last year? Yes they are, yet we added Irving while bringing the whole team back. That should have easily trumped any improvements the Bucks made. Talent wise everyone picked the Celtics to go to the finals,they had that much talent. Yet just like last year, Irving had a negative effect on team play. That went 12-2 in games he missed this year. He had his moments where you thought he finally got it. Yet every time things got rough he went back into the old Irving. Where he only cares about scoring and forgets about team play and running the offense. All those Bucks runs and he never once pulled the ball out, called a play, slow downed the game and ran our offense. He went full on scorer mode and it just made things worse. The worst part, is his comments after it happened. Not I need to be better, help the team more, take better shots, etc. It was I should have taken more shots. Yea that's what he needed to do, take more shots when they kept sending four people at him. How about pass the ball to your wide open teammates? So don't give me Irving needs more talent and compare him to Paul Pierce. I wouldn't say a word about Irving if he played on those teams. Yet the minute Pierce got talent around him he changed, Irving didn't. He just doesn't play team ball and he's the point guard. On the Cavs LeBron would take over running the offense and make Irving basically a SG which is what he is most of the time. Yet those LeBron teams always underachieved because they were never a true team, just a bunch of talent. So unless you can come up with a way to add a LeBron type guy and that isn't Davis, what Irving did on the Cavs means nothing to the Celtics. Davis won't take the Basketball out of Irving's hands and make him a SG. One can only hope that Irving can step back and reflect on what really happened. That Basketball is a team sport, you need to trust your teammates and play as a team. That he's a PG and that's his job. The crazy part that makes me so mad is he has the skills. It's not like he can't run a team because he's not a good passer. It's just Irving the scorer takes over and he just stops being a PG. The only thing stopping Irving from being a true #1 option on a Championship team is Irving himself. I actually hope he comes back and that he learned the lesson he's needed his whole career. That would impress me and show growth on Irving's part. Yet your probably right, he takes off because in his mind it's never him, it's everyone else. |
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 10, 2019 14:18:54 GMT -5
Yeah, every player struggles. Not every every player hits a GAME WINNING GAME 7 SHOT TO WIN A CITY A CHAMPIONSHIP IN THE PLAYOFFS. Show me another player who's done that as a active player in today's game. You're the one who called him a choke artist when he clearly has a clutch in him gene when it comes to crunch time. Show me David Price's start in the 2016 playoffs against the Indians. I'll be waiting... |
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 10, 2019 14:40:11 GMT -5
Umass, honestly who cares if you don't make the dang NBA Finals. Isaah Thomas made the ECF as a Celtic too. I put no stock into that. The only playoff result that you might put a little weight in besides a Finals appearance is a early and easy first round knockout. If your team gets knocked out that quickly in the playoffs, then that basically just proves you didn't belong there in the first place.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on May 10, 2019 17:34:06 GMT -5
Yeah, every player struggles. Not every every player hits a GAME WINNING GAME 7 SHOT TO WIN A CITY A CHAMPIONSHIP IN THE PLAYOFFS. Show me another player who's done that as a active player in today's game. You're the one who called him a choke artist when he clearly has a clutch in him gene when it comes to crunch time. Show me David Price's start in the 2016 playoffs against the Indians. I'll be waiting... Great, he did it for the Cavs when the entire building thought the ball would be in LeBron's hands. But when the Celtics needed him in the last 4 games with the season on the line, he shot 4-18, 8-22, 7-22 and 6-21 with a total plus/minus of -57. If they played one more game he probably would have been 4-32. How else would you describe his Celtics career? What he did was the equivalent of Price getting knocked out in the 1st inning of 2-3 playoff games. |
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 10, 2019 17:53:04 GMT -5
Yeah, every player struggles. Not every every player hits a GAME WINNING GAME 7 SHOT TO WIN A CITY A CHAMPIONSHIP IN THE PLAYOFFS. Show me another player who's done that as a active player in today's game. You're the one who called him a choke artist when he clearly has a clutch in him gene when it comes to crunch time. Show me David Price's start in the 2016 playoffs against the Indians. I'll be waiting... Great, he did it for the Cavs when the entire building thought the ball would be in LeBron's hands. But when the Celtics needed him in the last 4 games with the season on the line, he shot 4-18, 8-22, 7-22 and 6-21 with a total plus/minus of -57. If they played one more game he probably would have been 4-32. How else would you describe his Celtics career? What he did was the equivalent of Price getting knocked out in the 1st inning of 2-3 playoff games. Price got knocked out in the 2nd inning of a sweep. Basically really f-ing close. I would call Kyrie's career hopefully incomplete or underperformance. Dude, go look at the play in the Cavs game. He went isolation. He went one on one staring the defender in Curry straight in the face, took a step back and nailed the shot with a arm on him (could have been called a foul). LeBron wasn't even in the freaking picture. The play was nails and one of the best shots in NBA playoff history. |
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on May 10, 2019 22:00:15 GMT -5
Any of you nerds watching the game right now? Old pal Swedish Larry Bird looking like he could feature heavily on a Brad Stevens rotation lol he just picked up his dribble inexplicably instead of taking to the hole and then bricked a corner 3. What an absolute lad.
|
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 10, 2019 22:50:33 GMT -5
I don't even understand your point. You have the best player in the league, then you default to having the best talent in basketball. Bird, Jordan, Magic, LeBron. I'm pretty sure all of these players would have at least one championship even if they were playing by themselves surronded by no talent a lot. It took a super team in the Warriors to take down LeBron the past 5 years. He destroyed every other team he faced, including the Celtics everytime he went to the play-offs the past decade. Umass does have a valid point here, Lebron underachieved on a super team with the Heat (which were just as much of an egregious assemble of talent as the Warriors, relative to their era) because he was an insufferable asshole. If Kyrie was just aloof or not that great of a teammate, then yeah, talent wins out and you don't even mention this. Problem is he was atrocious to the team chemistry and he failed miserably at anything team related. It's a thing to consider. Kyrie isn't LeBron, so it really isn't a conversation. He was going 5 different directions in his point. Thing is, there will be 2 top 5 players in the league available in Anthony Davis and Leonard. I'm pretty sure you have no shot at Leonard, but you're the favorites to land Davis if you want to pay the price. That's when you think big in the NBA. Danny Ainge has a knack of thinking big too. |
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 10, 2019 22:53:28 GMT -5
I wonder if there's a way to land KD in a sign and trade for Al Horford.
Then trade Hayward's salary to facilitate a Anthony Davis trade, along with a lot of other big trade pieces.
You trade for those two players, you have a guarenteed NBA Finals appearance. You have more pieces than anyone to land AD. All you need is to convince KD to sign and Kyrie to resign.
Danny needs to force the situation however and trade for AD before free agency starts.
|
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on May 11, 2019 1:38:00 GMT -5
Umass does have a valid point here, Lebron underachieved on a super team with the Heat (which were just as much of an egregious assemble of talent as the Warriors, relative to their era) because he was an insufferable asshole. If Kyrie was just aloof or not that great of a teammate, then yeah, talent wins out and you don't even mention this. Problem is he was atrocious to the team chemistry and he failed miserably at anything team related. It's a thing to consider. Kyrie isn't LeBron, so it really isn't a conversation. He was going 5 different directions in his point. Thing is, there will be 2 top 5 players in the league available in Anthony Davis and Leonard. I'm pretty sure you have no shot at Leonard, but you're the favorites to land Davis if you want to pay the price. That's when you think big in the NBA. Danny Ainge has a knack of thinking big too. Pedro one point, playing as a team matters. It's not just about a collection of talent. |
|
|
