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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2019 8:22:26 GMT -5
So assuming this plays out as reported. After signing Walker, they likely sign Edwards giving you 12 guys under contract. Leaving two minimum guys after the room exception is used. Unless they sign Waters and don't make him a two way guy. Reports say they'll likely go for two bigs and a veteran ball handler.
I'd love to list some names but I have zero clue I this market what 4.8 million gets you. I sure hope with all the free agents and so many teams using cap room that it gets you a better player than you think.
For all the talk about Danny having a Patriot like draft, getting Walker after going guard heavy has left a huge void on the team. Let's see if he can finish it off with a bunch of good value signings.
Trades are crazy hard if your not going to move a contract like Smart. Not many Veterans are making around 5 million that are quality players. Basically recent draft picks on rookie contracts. Yet after getting Walker you know he wants to make another move.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2019 8:33:43 GMT -5
There's also a scenario that keeps bumping into my head that after the Celtics sign Walker, sign the mid level exception player, and all their draft picks, they turn around and trade Yabu for Baynes lol. Stevens loves him and he fit perfectly here. You only needed him gone for like a month until the room was clear to sign a max level free agent. Trading Yabu's salary get you close enough to get Baynes back in Boston. I've thought the same exact thing, but is that allowed? The NBA has so many stupid restrictions. Yet it makes a ton of sense for both teams. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2019 9:19:03 GMT -5
I know you can't sign Baynes for a full year (should he be bought out). Not sure how it applies to a trade though.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2019 9:30:51 GMT -5
Saw a report today that Boston is trying to be the 3rd team that helps facilitate Butler to Houston. I haven't tried to wrap my head around how that works (in a way that makes basketball sense as the cap mechanics are fine) and I'm not sure it's worth the exercise.
BRobb broke down 2 scenarios that could help but admitted 1 of them has a less than 5% chance of happening. The other, more likely but still.
Scenario 1 - Kyrie S&T. But if it's a cap team, why would anyone help the C's (especially if it's Brooklyn).
Scenario 2 - Horford S&T. Given that it's likely a Western Conference team, it's a bit easier to understand. Also, the typical restrictions in a S&T are reduced (Salary coming down so no BYC issues; Only getting 4 years anyway). If it's a Capped team, that's an added reason that it would make sense though the new team would still be hard capped which is never ideal (though not a deal breaker0.
Meanwhile, @dangercart said the best case scenario (however unlikely) would be a 3-team S&T (Kemba to Boston, Al to 3rd Team, Char gets assets). In that scenario, Boston would be hard-capped but 30M away and have the following:
Full non-tax MLE
The BAE
Keep Morris' Bird rights
Keep Baynes' TPE
Long shot to be sure but . . .
EDIT - To be clear, i'm not posting this as an idea but more highlighting the benefits of being able to do something that gets you Kemba while remaining a capped team.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2019 9:55:07 GMT -5
I guess I'm confused because wouldn't you need cap space to be a third team in a sign and trade of a BYC player? Or a trade exception? Like the Mavs have a 22 plus million trade exception from the Barnes trade, yet that isn't big enough for Horford's reported contract. Can you combine a player with it? I know you can't combine trade exceptions.
I don't see how the Celtics could be the third team in a Capela trade after signing Walker unless they traded Irving or Horford and got a trade exception. Which at this point might be worth dealing that Bucks 2020 pick to get.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2019 10:27:16 GMT -5
I'm not sure of the details. Just made the assumption since the Cap experts that I follow didn't shoot down the notion immediately (yet I know they saw it) so figured they knew of a way. As I said, the complexities are probably not worth getting into since it seems like such a remote possibility. EDIT - I'm assuming you were speaking of the first report I referenced. BRobb and Ryan both proposed ideas (still complicated and Ryan even proposed - part toungue-in-cheek - a massive multi-team S&T). EDIT 2 - I think Ryan was just showing off his grasp of the Cap rules.  |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2019 11:55:47 GMT -5
Given the rules if you add a few more teams or another team with cap space or trade exceptions it can work. You need to take care of over 16 million in Butler's salary given the 50% rule. Like same thing with the Walker trade, Charlotte won't have cap space right? Sign and trades are so hard they almost never happen anymore, yet everyone is throwing all these ideas around like just add a third team. Unless I don't understand the rules that third team needs cap space or trade exceptions or you need a bunch of teams till the extra amount you can go over per team adds up. Yet that won't happen, you won't see a five team trade. Yet yeah in theory it could work.
I kinda think it's worth talking about because it gives us a ton more options. Even Dallas would benefit if that's where Horford is going. They can keep their cap holds and get more exceptions if that can actually happen. Charlotte has a 7.8 million trade exception, not sure if that is enough. Like I really want to see what this looks like, not just it could happen.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2019 12:04:54 GMT -5
The only thing I'll add is that Ryan and BRobb are usually the first to say S&Ts are very unlikely and (typically) not worth talking about.
However (and these are MY thoughts so grain of salt):
1. LOTs of talk about Butler to Houston (from people who have sources). S&T only option
2. The working theory is that Al would want to go to a contender (and many of those don't have space or aren't targeting him for what they have)
3. Morey and Ainge definitely have the reputation (warranted or not) of getting creative.
Of course, the problem that we have is that these reports COULD be mutually exclusive. Some guys here the "what if we don't get Kemba" plan but fail to include that caveat (for 1 reason or another) in their report and it comes off as though Danny has a way to pull it off.
Just wanted to post information that is out there from reputable sources.
BTW - They guy who said Boston was interested in being 3 team involved I believe has a role with the Kings coverage (broadcaster, beat guy, something like that). They have been discussed as another candidate to be involved in the Butler/Houston scenario. Not sure if that makes him more or less a credible source but . . . there it is.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 28, 2019 12:30:59 GMT -5
Doubt it - word is Al Jefferson will be available and coming with Kemba... can’t believe he’s only 33 He just retired a few months ago after not playing last year. Like is this a rumor or legit? I couldn’t tell you |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 28, 2019 12:39:15 GMT -5
Saw a report today that Boston is trying to be the 3rd team that helps facilitate Butler to Houston. I haven't tried to wrap my head around how that works (in a way that makes basketball sense as the cap mechanics are fine) and I'm not sure it's worth the exercise. BRobb broke down 2 scenarios that could help but admitted 1 of them has a less than 5% chance of happening. The other, more likely but still. Scenario 1 - Kyrie S&T. But if it's a cap team, why would anyone help the C's (especially if it's Brooklyn). Scenario 2 - Horford S&T. Given that it's likely a Western Conference team, it's a bit easier to understand. Also, the typical restrictions in a S&T are reduced (Salary coming down so no BYC issues; Only getting 4 years anyway). If it's a Capped team, that's an added reason that it would make sense though the new team would still be hard capped which is never ideal (though not a deal breaker0. Meanwhile, @dangercart said the best case scenario (however unlikely) would be a 3-team S&T (Kemba to Boston, Al to 3rd Team, Char gets assets). In that scenario, Boston would be hard-capped but 30M away and have the following: Full non-tax MLE The BAE Keep Morris' Bird rights Keep Baynes' TPE Long shot to be sure but . . . EDIT - To be clear, i'm not posting this as an idea but more highlighting the benefits of being able to do something that gets you Kemba while remaining a capped team. In B-Robb’s article he talked about the Kemba /Al sign and trade but I think he did it all wrong because he talked about keeping Morris’s rights and being able to go over the cap Also, how can you be 30m under the cap by doing a sign and trade with Al and Kemba? |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 28, 2019 15:29:08 GMT -5
Vucevic is certainly out as a option.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 28, 2019 15:30:22 GMT -5
Any chance it could be thr Celtics?
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 28, 2019 19:45:58 GMT -5
Any chance it could be thr Celtics? Doubtful... they can’t do that if they sign Kemba unless there was a 3rd team that could take Celtics salary into cap space... also the only player that it’d make sense to trade for the Celtics is Hayward. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2019 4:25:50 GMT -5
There's also a scenario that keeps bumping into my head that after the Celtics sign Walker, sign the mid level exception player, and all their draft picks, they turn around and trade Yabu for Baynes lol. Stevens loves him and he fit perfectly here. You only needed him gone for like a month until the room was clear to sign a max level free agent. Trading Yabu's salary get you close enough to get Baynes back in Boston. I've thought the same exact thing, but is that allowed? The NBA has so many stupid restrictions. Yet it makes a ton of sense for both teams. Yeah the main reason why I keep thinking Baynes is in the Celtic's back pocket is because he hasn't been bought out yet. I remember when the trade happened, that's the first thing that came out. Him being bought out and going to a contending team. Yet, he isn't bought out at the moment and he's not on a contending team. As Texs alludes to, he can't come back if he's bought out. I'd give up Yabu and maybe a 2nd rounder. The Suns would make out with it by moving up into this draft with the Celtics last late first round pick this year, then getting Yabu, and maybe even like a second rounder ontop of it all. Yabu is redundant after the Celtics drafted Grant Williams because both players are PF only in my eyes. All of this for holding onto Baynes for a month. Like that'd be best case scenario for both sides. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2019 5:53:30 GMT -5
Brian Windhorst via ESPN is reporting that the 76's are after Al Horford if they lose out on their free agents. It would make sense with all this Jimmy Butler sign and trade crap with Houston.
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Post by artfuldodger on Jun 29, 2019 6:29:35 GMT -5
The Baynes trade is not final. Could you see that being altered into a three way trade to include the Rockets and Capela? The Rockets can then use a pick from that trade to complete the Butler trade.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2019 7:00:03 GMT -5
The Baynes trade is not final. Could you see that being altered into a three way trade to include the Rockets and Capela? The Rockets can then use a pick from that trade to complete the Butler trade. What? The Baynes trade isn't final? Since when? |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 29, 2019 7:02:08 GMT -5
I’m not usually one to whine about things not being fair etc, but I hate tampering with a passion. I think it stems from my involvement in club soccer and adults courting and recruiting kids and families off of other teams mid season (against the rules) and making all these promises. They skirt the rules now by inviting kids to practices and or hosting “free clinics” which are really just recruiting venues trying to convince the parents to ask more questions etc. My point? Now Magic Johnson is recruiting players and meeting with them for the Lakers which is explicitly against the rules of when he left. The NBA explicitly laid out that he was now allowed to quit then be involved in player recruitment because the optics are ridiculously bad. Sure former players do this all the time BUT they weren’t the teams GM 2 the same season. And like I said, this was something anticipated by the league ahead of time and they both agreed it could not happen. Now the quotes from Leonard’s camp are they are meeting with Magic. The fact the league will do nothing about this other than MAYBE and I stress maybe stop Magic from being in the “official” meeting is sad. The fact that these quotes even popped up should have severe and I mean severe penalties on the Lakers. I’m talking they should be hard capped for 3 years type stuff. You already have a league where it’s a farce and teams can’t keep their players from a small handful of locations and now you allow blatant open tampering with minimal consequence. And yes, I’m hanging the NBA before they even do anything but it’s because I know this is going to be swept under the rug.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 29, 2019 7:25:00 GMT -5
The Baynes trade is not final. Could you see that being altered into a three way trade to include the Rockets and Capela? The Rockets can then use a pick from that trade to complete the Butler trade. What? The Baynes trade isn't final? Since when? Not executed until the league year begins |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 29, 2019 7:32:38 GMT -5
IMHO, tampering may be happening but is it really changing the equation?
Most of the stuff that is happening is on the max guys. So they know what they are getting and now it's just about where they want to be. Do they need tampering to figure that out?
Put it this way. Whether Boston and Kemba have met or not, does it change the story?
Kemba wants the max
Charlotte offered much lower than what he was expecting
Boston losing 2 FAs (including a star PG) and becoming a space team
None of that requires clandestine behavior. So now it's just up to Kemba wanting to play here.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 29, 2019 7:36:09 GMT -5
I’m not usually one to whine about things not being fair etc, but I hate tampering with a passion. I think it stems from my involvement in club soccer and adults courting and recruiting kids and families off of other teams mid season (against the rules) and making all these promises. They skirt the rules now by inviting kids to practices and or hosting “free clinics” which are really just recruiting venues trying to convince the parents to ask more questions etc. My point? Now Magic Johnson is recruiting players and meeting with them for the Lakers which is explicitly against the rules of when he left. The NBA explicitly laid out that he was now allowed to quit then be involved in player recruitment because the optics are ridiculously bad. Sure former players do this all the time BUT they weren’t the teams GM 2 the same season. And like I said, this was something anticipated by the league ahead of time and they both agreed it could not happen. Now the quotes from Leonard’s camp are they are meeting with Magic. The fact the league will do nothing about this other than MAYBE and I stress maybe stop Magic from being in the “official” meeting is sad. The fact that these quotes even popped up should have severe and I mean severe penalties on the Lakers. I’m talking they should be hard capped for 3 years type stuff. You already have a league where it’s a farce and teams can’t keep their players from a small handful of locations and now you allow blatant open tampering with minimal consequence. And yes, I’m hanging the NBA before they even do anything but it’s because I know this is going to be swept under the rug. The report I read said Leonard requested Magic be at the meeting. What exactly have you heard? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 29, 2019 8:05:17 GMT -5
I've thought the same exact thing, but is that allowed? The NBA has so many stupid restrictions. Yet it makes a ton of sense for both teams. Yeah the main reason why I keep thinking Baynes is in the Celtic's back pocket is because he hasn't been bought out yet. I remember when the trade happened, that's the first thing that came out. Him being bought out and going to a contending team. Yet, he isn't bought out at the moment and he's not on a contending team. As Texs alludes to, he can't come back if he's bought out. I'd give up Yabu and maybe a 2nd rounder. The Suns would make out with it by moving up into this draft with the Celtics last late first round pick this year, then getting Yabu, and maybe even like a second rounder ontop of it all. Yabu is redundant after the Celtics drafted Grant Williams because both players are PF only in my eyes. All of this for holding onto Baynes for a month. Like that'd be best case scenario for both sides. Can you do it? Frankly it would smell of a deal in place to get the Celtics the cap room needed and given all the rules the NBA has there has to be one against that. It's why I never brought it up, I don't think it can happen. Like trade for him at the deadline maybe, but right after trading him looks really bad from an optic point of view. I just remember the NBA stepping in when we traded Doc to the Clippers and saying KG couldn't be dealt there because they thought it was part of the deal, but the move would be separate. NBA would have to approve it. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 29, 2019 9:33:56 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 29, 2019 9:55:26 GMT -5
I’m not usually one to whine about things not being fair etc, but I hate tampering with a passion. I think it stems from my involvement in club soccer and adults courting and recruiting kids and families off of other teams mid season (against the rules) and making all these promises. They skirt the rules now by inviting kids to practices and or hosting “free clinics” which are really just recruiting venues trying to convince the parents to ask more questions etc. My point? Now Magic Johnson is recruiting players and meeting with them for the Lakers which is explicitly against the rules of when he left. The NBA explicitly laid out that he was now allowed to quit then be involved in player recruitment because the optics are ridiculously bad. Sure former players do this all the time BUT they weren’t the teams GM 2 the same season. And like I said, this was something anticipated by the league ahead of time and they both agreed it could not happen. Now the quotes from Leonard’s camp are they are meeting with Magic. The fact the league will do nothing about this other than MAYBE and I stress maybe stop Magic from being in the “official” meeting is sad. The fact that these quotes even popped up should have severe and I mean severe penalties on the Lakers. I’m talking they should be hard capped for 3 years type stuff. You already have a league where it’s a farce and teams can’t keep their players from a small handful of locations and now you allow blatant open tampering with minimal consequence. And yes, I’m hanging the NBA before they even do anything but it’s because I know this is going to be swept under the rug. The report I read said Leonard requested Magic be at the meeting. What exactly have you heard? If that’s the case, anything short of an emphatic no that’s not allowed then everything above still stands. Magic’s not supposed to have anything to do with recruitment. Zero. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 29, 2019 10:04:22 GMT -5
Mark Murphy confirming what we thought was the case. No on Capela
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