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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 23, 2020 10:06:08 GMT -5
He was suspended without pay, which is why I was saying that he was suspended without pay. I very much know the difference between "suspended" and "suspended without pay." "Watkins is suspended without pay for the 2020 Season and 2020 Postseason"
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Apr 23, 2020 11:11:36 GMT -5
Watkins wasn't fired. I'm guessing he will get whatever pay percentage the rest of the Sox staff gets.No winks needed. He was suspended for 2020 without pay. The "without pay" part is what I was referring to. And it's not like he'll be able to apply for unemployment benefits like those who are being laid off are at the moment, so it's a pretty harsh punishment compared to what he's accused of doing, imo. It strains credibility that Watkins acted alone and that many within the Red Sox management team knew or should have known about this sign stealing scheme. It makes me wonder if someone within the Red Sox told MLB that they had evidence of many other MLB teams doing it which could have been used as leverage to limit the punishment. Honest question here: did you actually read the report? He is an advance scout and part of what he does is try and figure out what other teams' signs might be. That is completely above board and legal. The issue is that he updated that information while he was working as the video guy during games. How does it strain credulity that he acted alone in doing so? Also, consider (a) previous reporting that this is not a thing that the Red Sox were alone in doing, and (b) the note in this particular report that other teams had their advance scouts working in similar positions. Those on Twitter who are expressing righteous indignation that the Red Sox penalty was so much lesser than the Astros' was are, in my opinion, outing themselves as not actually having read any of this stuff. I agree with this. There has to be something that MLB isn't telling us. Otherwise, the league taking a 2nd round pick makes no sense. As stated previously in this thread, the problem is that the Red Sox were already slapped on the wrist for something similar with the Apple Watch incident. I'm sure if not for their being "second-time offenders," there's an even lesser punishment, and there might not have been nearly as intense an investigation by MLB. I did read the report. Why was Watkins, a Red Sox advance scout, also responsible for in game video during the games? Who assigned Watkins to that role and did they consider that there might be some possible blurring of ethics to use such in game video real time? Who was responsible for supervising Watkins and reviewing his reports? Just because there was no rule against it doesn't mean it was above board or ethical. Ethics and integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking. Why did MLB allow the Red Sox and other teams to allow their scouts to use in game videos and not restrict the use of those videos in game? MLB and Manfred lose some credibility here. They should admit that they did not adapt their rules and regulations with respect to the use of video and ban the use of in game video effective immediately.
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Post by Don Caballero on Apr 23, 2020 11:12:26 GMT -5
I'd welcome Cora back with open arms. F*ck the people in Houston who tried to scapegoat him, especially AJ Hinch. I don't think it's going to happen, but I would be happy to give him a second chance of sorts.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Apr 23, 2020 11:41:14 GMT -5
...I did read the report. Why was Watkins, a Red Sox advance scout, also responsible for in game video during the games? Who assigned Watkins to that role and did they consider that there might be some possible blurring of ethics to use such in game video real time? Just because there was no rule against it doesn't mean it was above board or ethical. Ethics and integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking. Why did MLB allow the Red Sox and other teams to allow their scouts to use in game videos and not restrict the use of those videos in game? MLB and Manfred loses some credability here. They should admit that they did not adapt their rules and regulations with respect to the use of video and ban the use of in game video effective immediately. I think the answer to your question is straightforward and it's one that always seems to blindside organizations: time and technology. Continuous updates with new information even during a game has probably been baked into the role for a while. Introduce video everywhere - digital monitors are as ubiquitous as spitoons used to be - and you get mission creep. You're right that the commish and his legions should have gotten on top of this. We could say that about a long list of MLB's failings, and the MLBPA hasn't been much better.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 23, 2020 11:52:25 GMT -5
Doesn't matter, that was still the greatest team I ever rooted for. It never seemed the remediation was going to be severe. I think Manfred was forced to give the penalty because of the Astros issue and the Sox having had a previous incident. The loss of a 2nd round pick is what it is.
I think it interesting that Watkins didn't cop to any guilt. He must've know this is common practice. Credit to him.
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Post by patford on Apr 28, 2020 19:35:10 GMT -5
The Astros received a severe penalty but it either wasn't close to being severe enough or the Sox having a 2nd round pick taken away was way too severe. The Astros were literally signaling pitches by banging on a trash can as the pitch was about to be delivered. And they did it a lot.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 29, 2020 11:37:10 GMT -5
The Astros received a severe penalty but it either wasn't close to being severe enough or the Sox having a 2nd round pick taken away was way too severe. The Astros were literally signaling pitches by banging on a trash can as the pitch was about to be delivered. And they did it a lot. I think you're focusing only on the picks. Astros penalty was first- and second-round picks in consecutive years, suspensions for Luhnow, Hinch, and Cora (that were likely, or already had in Cora's case, to get them fired), and a $5M fine. Red Sox penalty was a second-round pick and a suspension for a low-level employee that was unlikely to get him fired. I don't disagree with your point in a general sense necessarily (I think the pick was too much, but I think it was also, without saying it, based on their being second-time offenders), but I think it's not quite as drastic as looking at only the draft picks would make it seem. Losing both the GM and manager is a huge deal.
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Post by patford on May 3, 2020 19:16:26 GMT -5
The Astros received a severe penalty but it either wasn't close to being severe enough or the Sox having a 2nd round pick taken away was way too severe. The Astros were literally signaling pitches by banging on a trash can as the pitch was about to be delivered. And they did it a lot. I think you're focusing only on the picks. Astros penalty was first- and second-round picks in consecutive years, suspensions for Luhnow, Hinch, and Cora (that were likely, or already had in Cora's case, to get them fired), and a $5M fine. Red Sox penalty was a second-round pick and a suspension for a low-level employee that was unlikely to get him fired. I don't disagree with your point in a general sense necessarily (I think the pick was too much, but I think it was also, without saying it, based on their being second-time offenders), but I think it's not quite as drastic as looking at only the draft picks would make it seem. Losing both the GM and manager is a huge deal. It's true. I was only focusing on the picks. However, after listening to you and Ian it seems that Watkins got completely hosed for basically doing nothing wrong. And I also agree with Chris and Ian that the Astros should have been stripped of their World Series title. What they were doing was absolutely outrageous. If the Astros punishment was an appropriate punishment considering what they did then the Sox should have gotten off with...Man I just don't know what ? Nothing seems to be the only equitable answer.
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Post by patford on May 4, 2020 19:32:38 GMT -5
Sorry to drone on but just wanted to add, the banging on a trash can to signal off speed is worse than it sounds. It is less that the batter was being alerted that off speed was coming. It's that it allowed the batter to sit on a fast ball. If there was no bang on the trash can then the batter knows a fast ball is coming. And how many Sox relievers have we seen get crushed because their near 100 mph FB was the only pitch they could get over and batters just looked for it ?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 4, 2020 21:14:29 GMT -5
A couple of opinions.
1. We really don't know how much in game communication took place between Watkins and Cora. We can say we believe Watkins but in reality we will never know.
2. The penalties against the Astros management is two years. The reputations of players like Altuve, Correa and Reddick are forever shot and that doesn't include how many pitchers that feel cheated are going to go for retribution. Life's a bitch and the players will pay. I don't see that for any Sox players and I don't see statements from around baseball that are anti-Sox like the mass of players that spoke out against the Astros..
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Post by sdiaz1 on May 4, 2020 22:14:03 GMT -5
Losing out of a second round pick stinks but is really not all that big of deal. Not having a first or second round pick for two years in a row can alter a franchise's trajectory.
I really do not see how these are comparable. Let's all just pretend that we re-drafted Cole Brannen again with our second pick this year.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jun 13, 2020 7:44:33 GMT -5
/photo/1
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Jun 13, 2020 19:04:15 GMT -5
So MLB is going to take a 2nd rounder from the Yankees...right???
Lol
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Post by chrisfromnc on Jun 13, 2020 19:20:11 GMT -5
And also put them in a position so that they have to let go a manager who is loved by the players. It’s fascinating how life continues to give rational people reasons to dislike the Yankees.
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Post by patford on Jun 13, 2020 20:22:08 GMT -5
Outrageous and totally unsurprising. Anyone who can't see MLB has a strong Yankee bias is simply not being honest. I'm still waiting for someone to show me one person other than Aaron Judge who came up to MLB and hit much better in the Majors over the course of an entire year than they had ever shown in the minors. This is even stranger in that Judge was 25 years old when he became the Yankees starting right fielder.
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Post by patford on Jun 13, 2020 20:34:05 GMT -5
If you put aside any possible legal issue the letter has to be made public or at the very least needs to be shown to all the MLB owners. Particularly the Red Sox management. This smells like a huge dead rat.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jun 13, 2020 22:33:14 GMT -5
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 14, 2020 14:29:58 GMT -5
If you put aside any possible legal issue the letter has to be made public or at the very least needs to be shown to all the MLB owners. Particularly the Red Sox management. This smells like a huge dead rat. Our punishment sucked by imagine how the Astros feel. Based on what little I know of Jim Crane, he's not just going to let the Yankees get off scot-free if they were truly getting special treatment.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 14, 2020 15:34:15 GMT -5
If you put aside any possible legal issue the letter has to be made public or at the very least needs to be shown to all the MLB owners. Particularly the Red Sox management. This smells like a huge dead rat. Our punishment sucked by imagine how the Astros feel. Based on what little I know of Jim Crane, he's not just going to let the Yankees get off scot-free if they were truly getting special treatment. I have to ask - why would anybody care how the Astros feel? They are cheaters up and above in a realm of their own. Jim Crane couldn't stop the cheating his team did so why would he have any impact on the Yankees and the commissioner? Yeah, it looks like the Yankees got away with cheating but it looks like the level of cheating they did was on the Red Sox' level, not the Astros level. They were in a league by themselves. It would be nice if the commissioner stripped the Yankees of their 2nd round pick (as opposed to them losing it for signing Gerit Cole).
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Post by patford on Jun 14, 2020 18:16:10 GMT -5
At this point we don't know. Based on some reports it seems to me the level of cheating was much more on the Astros level. Which is to say pitches, pitch by pitch, directly being relayed to the hitter as opposed to an employee using film to figure out signs and either directly or indirectly coaching-up players so that if they got to 2nd base they would have an understanding of the catchers signs which could be relayed to the hitter. This is why we need to know more. Or why at a minimum the Sox management need to know more. I think there is a huge distinction between whistles, banging on trash cans and other signals coming from off the field and a signal being passed to the hitter from second base by a base runner. A "coached-up" base runner is not very different from what a manager, coach or observant player might share with the lineup. And really for most hitters all they need to know is if a fastball is coming. Just that one fact is so huge it can not be overestimated. In fact it's close to the whole sum of pitching or hitting effectively.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 15, 2020 11:38:23 GMT -5
Outrageous and totally unsurprising. Anyone who can't see MLB has a strong Yankee bias is simply not being honest. I'm still waiting for someone to show me one person other than Aaron Judge who came up to MLB and hit much better in the Majors over the course of an entire year than they had ever shown in the minors. This is even stranger in that Judge was 25 years old when he became the Yankees starting right fielder. The conduct in the letter was from the 2015 and 2016 seasons, so pre-Judge. And as for your other point, there's plenty of precedent: www.sbnation.com/2013/7/12/4516766/hitters-better-in-the-majors-than-the-minorsI know you're our leading NYY conspiracy theorist, and there's certainly plenty to be legitimately interested in here on that score, but let's not get too crazy here.
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Post by patford on Jun 15, 2020 12:04:22 GMT -5
Outrageous and totally unsurprising. Anyone who can't see MLB has a strong Yankee bias is simply not being honest. I'm still waiting for someone to show me one person other than Aaron Judge who came up to MLB and hit much better in the Majors over the course of an entire year than they had ever shown in the minors. This is even stranger in that Judge was 25 years old when he became the Yankees starting right fielder. The conduct in the letter was from the 2015 and 2016 seasons, so pre-Judge. And as for your other point, there's plenty of precedent: www.sbnation.com/2013/7/12/4516766/hitters-better-in-the-majors-than-the-minorsI know you're our leading NYY conspiracy theorist, and there's certainly plenty to be legitimately interested in here on that score, but let's not get too crazy here. Chris, I take it you have seen the reports concerning the Yankees and cameras being used for sign stealing in 2017. So it goes beyond the letter. As far as players who were better in the majors (I suspect Mookie fits in there) what I meant specifically about Judge was a rookie who over the course of a full year puts up numbers which are much-much better than anything the player had shown in the minors. And Judges fairly advanced age as a rookie is also a factor in what I'm suspicious of. Basically what I am saying is the management of the Astros and Red Sox need to be able to see the letter.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 15, 2020 12:30:14 GMT -5
Chris, I take it you have seen the reports concerning the Yankees and three cameras being used for sign stealing in 2017. So it goes beyond the letter. In fact if the allegations about 2017 are true then the letter being earlier makes things worse for MLB and the Yankees. As far as players who were better in the majors (I suspect Mookie fits in there) what I meant specifically about Judge was a rookie who over the course of a full year puts up numbers which are much-much better than anything the player had shown in the minors. And Judges fairly advanced age as a rookie is also a factor in what I'm suspicious of. This wasn't a guy who was raw or not yet physically mature. Basically what I am saying is the management of the Astros and Red Sox need to be able to see the letter. Why would the management of the Astros need to see it? They don't have a leg to stand on. I could see why the Sox would be interested and potentially be frosted about it. But the Astros have no right to complain. I hate seeing the Sox lumped in with Houston. What Houston did was far more egregious than everybody else, including NY. My sense is that the Sox were probably doing what most other teams did which most likely includes NY. The big strike against the Sox was the previous warning from Applegate.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jun 15, 2020 12:52:28 GMT -5
Check out the hang times. He just pops those lazy flies over that friendly fence. It's good for a laugh unless he's doing that against your team
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Post by patford on Jun 15, 2020 13:04:44 GMT -5
Why would the management of the Astros need to see it? They don't have a leg to stand on. I could see why the Sox would be interested and potentially be frosted about it. But the Astros have no right to complain. I hate seeing the Sox lumped in with Houston. What Houston did was far more egregious than everybody else, including NY. My sense is that the Sox were probably doing what most other teams did which most likely includes NY. The big strike against the Sox was the previous warning from Applegate. My opinion is the Astros got a very severe penalty , which for what they did was not severe enough and that the Sox got a penalty that was far more severe than was warranted for what they were accused of doing. The reason I mention the Astros is because what the Yankees are being accused of in 2017, after the letter, sounds extremely similar to what the Astros were doing. Various ways (whistles, arm signals, etc.) are mentioned as being used to signal the hitter during an at bat. And if the reports are true and I'm reading them correctly when there was not a base runner signals were given by personnel who were not on the field or perhaps by base coaches. I'm not at all making excuses for the Astros. I think their World Series title should have been stripped. I'm just saying that if I were the Astros or the Sox I'd demand to know what was in that letter. The latest is MLB and the Yankees are jointly trying to stop the judge from making the letter public.
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