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Coronavirus thread tangent
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 29, 2020 14:22:31 GMT -5
China's viewpoint is that Hong Kong, Taiwan and Tibet belong to them and they are technically right. They will never relinquish control and no country is going to be stupid enough to try to prevent that. As far as the China Sea islands go they aren't technically right and a sea battle is a different animal than a land battle in the mainland. China can't match up against either the US or the Russian navies and they know that. They have, for the most part, backed off on their plans for the islands of most interest to other countries. Using the 3 groups of islands the Philippines and China both claim, China and the Philippines have both agreed that any resource exploration will be a joint venture (there might be oil).
The timing of the Duterte/Xi agreements was most interesting and it wasn't until I heard about the Biden/Kerry China shenanigans that I figured out why. To recap, the sons brought in $4 billion dollars from China in exchange for a softening of the US China Sea policies. I think China was banking on Hillary winning the election because up until Trump won, they were taking a hardball approach with the Philippines. I believe the reason we hear about the much smaller Ukraine thing and not the China thing is that Trump is anti-Chinese. He probably thinks it's funny that the Chinese gave away $4b.
It isn't coincidental that Duterte has mentioned replacing the USA treaty with one with Russia. He's never mentioned a treaty with China. Typically, with Duterte, when he mentions something in passing, he's got something in mind. We'll see which way he turns when the treaty with the USA ends.
ADD: The above might be total BS, it's solely my speculation. Take with whatever size grain you wish.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 29, 2020 14:36:43 GMT -5
South Korea also seems to be getting a handle on things. That's also a democracy that's in my opinion a strict democracy. They pretty much went into lockdown right after the church group was diagnosed with it.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Mar 29, 2020 14:52:32 GMT -5
It's partly a problem when 8 doctors were arrested for discovering it and trying to spread information to help people and then arrested and forced to sign documents stating that they're lying. Then, after China finally admits to a problem, won't allow for outside help until after a few weeks. At this point, China has been very helpful, but not before the situation got severely out of control and spread globally. In that post, I'm talking about now. Now is not the time for politics, now is the time for the media to encourage solutions not determine causes. Now is the time to tell people to get off the beaches and theme parks. What is Gov. Walsh thinking even allowing Castle Island to be open and why is the media basically selling the park ? The USA is looking like Italy is in their future. This I fully agree with. We can't have a viral outbreak without it being a political sideshow. There seems to be a struggle with accepting the economic hardship and an arrogance that the problem will work itself out. If both sides agree on how to handle the problem, it's an admission of one parties wrongness. Dr. Fauci just admitted we're likely to have 100,000-200,000 dead from this virus. |
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Mar 29, 2020 17:52:04 GMT -5
Several things in China's past is the reason the line from my statement. "Whether or not that violence is justified is another question"
I was commenting on the situation, not the history since none of that applied to my taking a Disneyland vacation. As far as the path to solving the virus issue, the bottom line is that they solved it, no-one else has. There was obviously a point at which they knew they had a problem that needed to be dealt with. If Dr. Fauci is right, the people that survived are now very likely immune to it. Who solved it? China? Only if you believe them. But many reports suggest a) they’ve lied about casualties; and b) they have lied that they have overcome Coronavirus. Do you trust a state run media to say otherwise? Or would a free press be more likely to tell the truth? |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Mar 29, 2020 17:59:02 GMT -5
Several things in China's past is the reason the line from my statement. "Whether or not that violence is justified is another question"
I was commenting on the situation, not the history since none of that applied to my taking a Disneyland vacation. As far as the path to solving the virus issue, the bottom line is that they solved it, no-one else has. There was obviously a point at which they knew they had a problem that needed to be dealt with. If Dr. Fauci is right, the people that survived are now very likely immune to it. Who solved it? China? Only if you believe them. But many reports suggest a) they’ve lied about casualties; and b) they have lied that they have overcome Coronavirus. Do you trust a state run media to say otherwise? Or would a free press be more likely to tell the truth? I mean, |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 29, 2020 20:01:43 GMT -5
Several things in China's past is the reason the line from my statement. "Whether or not that violence is justified is another question"
I was commenting on the situation, not the history since none of that applied to my taking a Disneyland vacation. As far as the path to solving the virus issue, the bottom line is that they solved it, no-one else has. There was obviously a point at which they knew they had a problem that needed to be dealt with. If Dr. Fauci is right, the people that survived are now very likely immune to it. Who solved it? China? Only if you believe them. But many reports suggest a) they’ve lied about casualties; and b) they have lied that they have overcome Coronavirus. Do you trust a state run media to say otherwise? Or would a free press be more likely to tell the truth? There are hundreds of foreign journalists in China. They have closed all 16 hospitals. The factories have reopened but workers got laid off because there's pretty much no international shipping going on right now. Shopping and business have returned to Wutan. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 29, 2020 20:04:14 GMT -5
Who solved it? China? Only if you believe them. But many reports suggest a) they’ve lied about casualties; and b) they have lied that they have overcome Coronavirus. Do you trust a state run media to say otherwise? Or would a free press be more likely to tell the truth? I mean, January 14th ? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 29, 2020 20:10:13 GMT -5
According to news reportings from around the world. The people of Wuhan would post on social media and the government would remove them shortly after and then people go missing. Groups were taking screenshots so they could tell the story when this is over. Heck the people of Wuhan are on video when the President visited saying lies, lies, lies. China did nothing for months with the world's biggest population and some how they have crazy low numbers? It's litterally the reason they are offering so much aid, they made this ten times worse. That's total BS. Very early on in the outbreak, China mobilized and built two, two story hospitals that were operational in 6 days. I knew about the virus a long time before I saw anything in the western news. They also built 16 temporary hospitals that were operational in two days. It was all over the Eastern news but no mention in the western news. China also has a large number offoreign journalists in their country. Only the American journalists were kicked out and only after America kicked out the Chinese journalists. I'm sorry but you clearly don't follow Western Media which is really the issue. We had daily updates on them building the hospitals. They did that because they covered it up till they reached New York City and Italy levels and couldn't anymore! The Doctor that called them out was forced to sign a letter saying he lied. That was the end of December! |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Mar 29, 2020 21:01:13 GMT -5
Yes, and the research conducted by Chinese authorities at the time claimed it couldn't be spread person to person. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 30, 2020 2:45:22 GMT -5
We've coma a long way since that time. We should be using media for prevention, not to review history or point fingers. In the mean time, people are still flocking to the beaches, amusement parks remain open. With the knowledge we have now, if we experience the levels Italy experienced, we only have ourselves to blame. That's true for pretty much anywhere in the world.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 30, 2020 2:50:33 GMT -5
Love this:
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Post by fenwaydouble on Mar 30, 2020 7:10:50 GMT -5
We've coma a long way since that time. We should be using media for prevention, not to review history or point fingers. In the mean time, people are still flocking to the beaches, amusement parks remain open. With the knowledge we have now, if we experience the levels Italy experienced, we only have ourselves to blame. That's true for pretty much anywhere in the world. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the media's job. Journalists are supposed to hold public figures accountable by "reviewing history." Politicians are supposed to protect the public good by doing things like educating citizens, providing tests, and closing beaches and amusement parks when there's a global pandemic. I know you hate the NYT and support Trump, but this whole thing has gotten to where it is because of a massive failure of government, not the media. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 30, 2020 20:40:09 GMT -5
I think it's a massive failure of the people, not the governments or media. Unfortunately people who risk catching it also risk their friends and family.
The countries that will survive the best are the countries whose populations reacted the best for whatever reason.
I also question why, if Dr. Fauci is correct that it's highly probable that the people who survive it are immune to it, survivors aren't being used a caretakers.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Mar 30, 2020 20:44:33 GMT -5
I think it's a massive failure of the people, not the governments or media. Unfortunately people who risk catching it also risk their friends and family. How is it not a failure of the Chinese government...? Not that Italy or the US prepared appropriately. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 30, 2020 20:48:46 GMT -5
I think it's a massive failure of the people, not the governments or media. Unfortunately people who risk catching it also risk their friends and family. How is it not a failure of the Chinese government...? Not that Italy or the US prepared appropriately. In what country in the world would the early appearance of an unknown virus cause the kind of lockdowns required to contain it ? This pretty much could have started anyplace. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 30, 2020 21:02:15 GMT -5
Wutan and New York have equivalent populations. If this started in New York City (or any major city with a mobile population anyplace in the world) does anyone really believe it would be contained ? worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/ |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Mar 30, 2020 21:02:38 GMT -5
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Mar 30, 2020 21:04:22 GMT -5
How is it not a failure of the Chinese government...? Not that Italy or the US prepared appropriately. In what country in the world would the early appearance of an unknown virus cause the kind of lockdowns required to contain it ? This pretty much could have started anyplace. Not arresting doctors who discovered it, then withholding information, not allowing foreign assistance and not telling WHO that the virus can't be spread from person-to-person would be a great start. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 30, 2020 21:08:19 GMT -5
In what country in the world would the early appearance of an unknown virus cause the kind of lockdowns required to contain it ? This pretty much could have started anyplace. Not arresting doctors who discovered it, then withholding information, not allowing foreign assistance and not telling WHO that the virus can't be spread from person-to-person would be a great start. I don't disagree but do you think it would be contained ? |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Mar 30, 2020 21:39:23 GMT -5
Not arresting doctors who discovered it, then withholding information, not allowing foreign assistance and not telling WHO that the virus can't be spread from person-to-person would be a great start. I don't disagree but do you think it would be contained ? I honestly don't, but I think the world could have been better equipped if they knew what they were dealing with. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 30, 2020 21:43:21 GMT -5
I don't disagree but do you think it would be contained ? I honestly don't, but I think the world could have been better equipped if they knew what they were dealing with. The world has known for quite a while, I'm not so sure about that. In a lot of ways, it was better that it started in Wutan instead of someplace like New York. Lot's of spread through the cruise lines which regularly visit Wutan. Imagine if it started in an air transportation hub like New York. |
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 30, 2020 21:57:43 GMT -5
Not arresting doctors who discovered it, then withholding information, not allowing foreign assistance and not telling WHO that the virus can't be spread from person-to-person would be a great start. I don't disagree but do you think it would be contained ? your throwing the word contained out there. What do you mean by contained ? If you mean, would we have the situation we have right now if if it started in a western civilized society, I would say, no, we wouldn't. I am sorry, there isn't any more reason to trust the Chinese goverment on their deployment of countermeasures to this virus, than there was for the world trusting USSR for Chernobyl. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 30, 2020 22:15:53 GMT -5
We will have to see but I think the dictatorial countries like Singapore and Cuba will fare better than the democracies. That's not meant as a political endorsement, just an opinion relative to the virus.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 30, 2020 22:28:28 GMT -5
We will have to see but I think the dictatorial countries like Singapore and Cuba will fare better than the democracies. That's not meant as a political endorsement, just an opinion relative to the virus. I was referring more to the onset of the virus. It is already out. It won't be "handled" until herd immunity occurs. I try not to worry about forms of government too much. I am not for authoritarian models, like China, for obvious reasons, having lived in the US all my life. What has happened here is a real problem for their image. People know that, but are trying to be diplomatic. They hopefully will acknowledge their mistakes, at some point, and we can be better prepared for the next novel virus. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 30, 2020 22:35:05 GMT -5
We will have to see but I think the dictatorial countries like Singapore and Cuba will fare better than the democracies. That's not meant as a political endorsement, just an opinion relative to the virus. I was referring more to the onset of the virus. It is already out. It won't be "handled" until herd immunity occurs. I try not to worry about forms of government too much. I am not for authoritarian models, like China, for obvious reasons, having lived in the US all my life. What has happened here is a real problem for their image. People know that, but are trying to be diplomatic. They hopefully will acknowledge their mistakes, at some point, and we can be better prepared for the next novel virus. The next one and the next one is a scary proposition. How can you prepare for something that doesn't exist yet ? Vaccines and medicines take months if not years to develop. China's economy will be in the toilet for a long time to come, far worse and longer than most countries. In the long run, countries that are generally food self sufficient should do better than countries that have to import a lot of their food. The USA should be strong there. |
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