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Patriots 2020 season thread
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 11, 2020 11:21:58 GMT -5
Really interested to see the Texans and Browns this weekend. The Texans are 2-6 with the 2 wins against the Jags. However, the other 6 games have been pretty brutal.
KC 8-1
Ravens 6-2
Steelers 8-0
Vikings 3-5
Titans 6-2
Packers 6-2
5 of those teams are all potential SB teams and the Vikings are a weird team that’s underachieved big time yet is 3-2 in last 5 games and 4 of the losses are to the packers, Colts, Titans and Seahawks...
Long way of saying, you are what your record is but they don’t really have one bad loss despite being 2-6.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 11, 2020 12:20:25 GMT -5
Only two RBs have 2,000 yards from that draft, Michel and Chubb. Sure you want Chubb, yet talk about holding them to a crazy high standard. It's a bad pick because they passed on one guy. Taking the second best RB isn't good enough, we demand you be perfect. It's certainly not like Harry where like eight guys have done better. Not sure why it's a crazy high standard to get the best player out of a group when you have first pick? If you'd prefer something a little more comprehensive, take a look at the 5 players selected after each of the Patriots' first round selections in 2018: 23. Wynn 24. D.J. Moore 25. Hayden Hurst 26. Calvin Ridley 27. Rashard Penny 28. Terrell Edmunds . . 31. Michel 32. Lamar Jackson 33. Austin Corbet 34. Will Hernandez 35. Nick Chubb 36. Darius Leonard That's a lot of household names the Pats didn't take. Of the 14 picks between 23 and 36 Michel is comfortably in the bottom third. Wynn is somewhere in the middle. That's not good drafting, sad part is this is one of the better top-of-the-draft efforts the Pats have had over the last 7 years. Bill needs to take the day off on day 1 of the draft, maybe day 2 as well. Wake him on day 3 when his magic kicks in. Lol at household names, an average fan knows a few of those guys and non fans know none. So in 2018 how many are dominant running the ball in our Championship run? Did you not listen to Bill? They went all in to win as many Championship's with Brady as they could. We needed a RB. There were only two in that draft, it was a crazy weak RB draft. So is it you're upset they only drafted the second best RB or they went for need to win a championship? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 11, 2020 12:40:02 GMT -5
Drafting a RB in the first round is a questionable move to begin with as there is value to be had later. Sony basically got a 4 year 10m (9.6m) deal. That’s ok, but you lose a lot of the rookie value on the deal because running backs are found cheaper than most positions. Moving off Sony, the running backs taken higher are usually even worse picks. Check out the first round backs: 2010: CJ Spiller (no) 2011: Mark Ingram (no) 2012: Trent Richardson (no) 2015: Gurley (maybe - I guess yes because he was so good for a couple years but he didn’t make it to a second contract.) 2015: Gordon (no - if you don’t want to resign your first rd pick it’s not good) 2016: Elliott (yes because he was so great but his second contract is already an albatross and it just started) 2017: Fournette (no already on another team) 2017: McCaffrey (looks great so far but he’s piling up injuries this year so let’s see in a few years) 2018: Barkley (blew out his knee but has been special - let’s see next contract and production post injury) 2018: Penny (no) 2018: Michel (no) So with these backs, most of the teams wouldn’t redraft if they were given the chance. Guys like Gurley and Elliott get yes because they were so good for a couple years but that’s sort of the conundrum with a back. To be worth the first round they need to be super special on the rookie deal. Then once they are, you pay them a ridiculous contract that they can’t live up to or you lose them. It’s a loss now or down the road. I don't disagree on the value part, even though you're leaving out great picks like Cooks. The discussion isn't long-term value. It's having to win in a short window. Where you don't have years to take multiple RBs to find a low round gem. Are we really upset they made win now moves with the best QB in history in his last days? That's what Michel and Harry were, at least Michel helped us win. The other flip side to this, is tons of good RBs go first half of the second round. So good teams that pick low either take a guy early or get the leftovers. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 11, 2020 13:47:24 GMT -5
Drafting a RB in the first round is a questionable move to begin with as there is value to be had later. Sony basically got a 4 year 10m (9.6m) deal. That’s ok, but you lose a lot of the rookie value on the deal because running backs are found cheaper than most positions. Moving off Sony, the running backs taken higher are usually even worse picks. Check out the first round backs: 2010: CJ Spiller (no) 2011: Mark Ingram (no) 2012: Trent Richardson (no) 2015: Gurley (maybe - I guess yes because he was so good for a couple years but he didn’t make it to a second contract.) 2015: Gordon (no - if you don’t want to resign your first rd pick it’s not good) 2016: Elliott (yes because he was so great but his second contract is already an albatross and it just started) 2017: Fournette (no already on another team) 2017: McCaffrey (looks great so far but he’s piling up injuries this year so let’s see in a few years) 2018: Barkley (blew out his knee but has been special - let’s see next contract and production post injury) 2018: Penny (no) 2018: Michel (no) So with these backs, most of the teams wouldn’t redraft if they were given the chance. Guys like Gurley and Elliott get yes because they were so good for a couple years but that’s sort of the conundrum with a back. To be worth the first round they need to be super special on the rookie deal. Then once they are, you pay them a ridiculous contract that they can’t live up to or you lose them. It’s a loss now or down the road. I don't disagree on the value part, even though you're leaving out great picks like Cooks. The discussion isn't long-term value. It's having to win in a short window. Where you don't have years to take multiple RBs to find a low round gem. Are we really upset they made win now moves with the best QB in history in his last days? That's what Michel and Harry were, at least Michel helped us win. The other flip side to this, is tons of good RBs go first half of the second round. So good teams that pick low either take a guy early or get the leftovers. Cook was a second round pick |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 11, 2020 14:07:15 GMT -5
I don't disagree on the value part, even though you're leaving out great picks like Cooks. The discussion isn't long-term value. It's having to win in a short window. Where you don't have years to take multiple RBs to find a low round gem. Are we really upset they made win now moves with the best QB in history in his last days? That's what Michel and Harry were, at least Michel helped us win. The other flip side to this, is tons of good RBs go first half of the second round. So good teams that pick low either take a guy early or get the leftovers. Cook was a second round pick I thought he went before our pick, I remember studying him a ton. Forgot it was we traded the pick, not that he was picked before. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 11, 2020 14:59:19 GMT -5
Cook was a second round pick I thought he went before our pick, I remember studying him a ton. Forgot it was we traded the pick, not that he was picked before. Yea he fell because of that knee injury. Loved that guy - still do he’s a stud. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 11, 2020 16:07:17 GMT -5
Lol at household names, an average fan knows a few of those guys and non fans know none. So in 2018 how many are dominant running the ball in our Championship run? Did you not listen to Bill? They went all in to win as many Championship's with Brady as they could. We needed a RB. There were only two in that draft, it was a crazy weak RB draft. So is it you're upset they only drafted the second best RB or they went for need to win a championship? Jackson was league MVP. Chubb and Leonard were Pro Bowl selections. Ridley is a top 5-10 WR this year. Moore would be the best WR for the Pats since Moss. Laugh all you want over the definition of "household name", but that's 5 out of 12 players that Bill passed over (he passed over 3 of them twice) I'd trade both the Wynn and Michel picks for. The team would have had better results picking names out of a hat. It's the words you chose, not me. Very few athletes are household names. Guys that everyone knows like Manning and Brady. Like I said your average fan knows a few of them and non fans know none. Hell given Michel playing in the SB he's probably more well known than a bunch of those guys. SB is the one game non NFL fans actually watch. Wynn is a very good young LT. I have no reason why you have an issue with that pick. His value to draft slot is very good and they cost a small fortune to sign as free agents. I'm not arguing there weren't better players with Michel, it's they had a need to help an aging Brady. In your mind is it better we took Jackson which likely means no 2018 Championship? There were no late round RBs in that draft that were studs. It was Michel or Chubb. Like with Harry, it's not that they passed on one guy, yet tons. You shouldn't complain that they took the second best RB in the draft when they had a huge need. Now if there were a bunch of guys like Chubb and the missed on all of them you'd have a point. It's like Malcolm Mitchell in 2016. Home run of a 4th round pick in my book because of one game. He was money in the SB. Michel was money for three postseason games and his first year in general. The value wasn't best player long-term, yet the big role in winning a Championship. Let's not forget how hard those are to win. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 11, 2020 16:31:05 GMT -5
Kerryon Johnson was looking pretty good until he got hurt.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 11, 2020 16:44:51 GMT -5
He lasted ten games his rookie year and would have missed the playoffs. There's only one guy in that class that likely does what Michel did and that's Chubb.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 11, 2020 17:13:59 GMT -5
He lasted ten games his rookie year and would have missed the playoffs. There's only one guy in that class that likely does what Michel did and that's Chubb. I was just saying he was a good back - he was drafted before their second rd pick anyways |
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,045
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Post by mobaz on Nov 12, 2020 8:40:56 GMT -5
I've moved on to College QB Watch, honestly. Assuming a Pats win tonight, the road is hard. Who else is looking for a QB? (% chance aiming for QB) Jets (0-9) 95% Jags (1-7) 100% Cowboys (2-7) 40%? Giants (2-7) 70%? Chargers (2-6) 0% WFT (2-6) 90% Houston (2-6) 0% (CORRECTION -- THIS IS MIAMI'S PICK, but still 0%)Cin (2-5-1) 0% ATL (3-6) 40% Car (3-6) 50% Not far behind are Broncos, Vikings, Lions, and 49ers, who might all be in the market for a QB. That's a lot of players, for what I consider 3-4 Top of Draft viable QBs. Dan Graziano did a ranking 1-32 on probability a team would want to take a QB in the first round here ($) Top 15 (with teams projected to pick above/near the Pats' projected 13th pick in bold): 1. Jacksonville Jaguars (proj 2 and 23) 2. Chicago Bears (15) 3. Washington Football Team (6) 4. New England Patriots (13) 5. New York Jets (1 and 27) 6. Indianapolis Colts (20) 7. Pittsburgh Steelers (30) 8. New Orleans Saints (28) 9. Tampa Bay Buccaneers (26) 10. Denver Broncos (11) 11. New York Giants (4) 12. San Francisco 49ers (16)
13. Carolina Panthers (12) 14. Cleveland Browns (17) 15. Dallas Cowboys (3) Obviously if the Cowboys are picking a QB it means Prescott signed somewhere else which takes a QB needy team off the table most likely. My favorites for comedy reasons are Eagles at 21 and Packers at 25 |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 12, 2020 12:05:44 GMT -5
I would just caution about putting too much time this early into QBs with Bill unless we lose games and get a lot higher. He won't reach for a guy like other teams do and I don't see him doing some blockbuster deal to trade up.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Nov 12, 2020 19:59:21 GMT -5
There's been some speculation that Jimmy G could return to New England next year too.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,045
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Post by mobaz on Nov 12, 2020 20:13:58 GMT -5
There's been some speculation that Jimmy G could return to New England next year too. I worry that if Jimmy G can't succeed in Kyle Shanahan's offense he won't succeed back here. |
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Nov 12, 2020 21:21:44 GMT -5
There's been some speculation that Jimmy G could return to New England next year too. I worry that if Jimmy G can't succeed in Kyle Shanahan's offense he won't succeed back here. He got the 49's to a superbowl. With Jimmy G, it's pretty much a question of durability and can he make it through a full season. He seems to have Nomar's broken glass syndrome. If he gets dinged up, and all of a sudden he's out for the year. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2020 7:01:24 GMT -5
Gilmore didn’t practice again yesterday. Not sure why they didn’t just put him on IR.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,045
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Post by mobaz on Nov 13, 2020 9:24:34 GMT -5
Still love Bill. He's the best.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 13, 2020 15:56:13 GMT -5
I don't get it. Last game was one of the better performances for young guys. The offense was basically two 2nd year guys in Meyers and Harris. Certain rookie OL looks like a stud. Heck the whole OL is guys we drafted right now. We had crazy dead money from Brady and guys like Brown trying to make him happy. We lost more to Covid opt outs than any team. We had a brand new QB with a crazy short training camp and no preseason games to get him ready. On top of that we've had injuries to our weak areas depth wise. I'd love to see other teams lose two starting WRs, top three TEs, starting RB and see what they do. Oh yeah and we basically lost three weeks of practice, our bye week and had a ton of guys get Covid. Given all that there's only one game they didn't compete in. A little better luck and this teams record could be 5-3, heck 6-2.
They were always going to get better as the season went along, they are crazy young at a ton of spots. Yet Covid derailed that for a few weeks. Now injuries are getting a little crazy. Is this team ever going to catch a break?
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 14, 2020 10:42:31 GMT -5
I don't get it. Last game was one of the better performances for young guys. The offense was basically two 2nd year guys in Meyers and Harris. Certain rookie OL looks like a stud. Heck the whole OL is guys we drafted right now. We had crazy dead money from Brady and guys like Brown trying to make him happy. We lost more to Covid opt outs than any team. We had a brand new QB with a crazy short training camp and no preseason games to get him ready. On top of that we've had injuries to our weak areas depth wise. I'd love to see other teams lose two starting WRs, top three TEs, starting RB and see what they do. Oh yeah and we basically lost three weeks of practice, our bye week and had a ton of guys get Covid. Given all that there's only one game they didn't compete in. A little better luck and this teams record could be 5-3, heck 6-2. They were always going to get better as the season went along, they are crazy young at a ton of spots. Yet Covid derailed that for a few weeks. Now injuries are getting a little crazy. Is this team ever going to catch a break? Assuming this is in response to his interview so: 1. Bill isn't going to catch a break from the media because he's been the worst interview in sports for 20 years. He may not necessarily be hated, but fewer punches would be thrown if he had a better bedside manner and that's 100% on him. 2. He can still be the best coach in the history of the NFL while also having a bad run of draft years. 3. If Bill had any idea that Onwenu was half as good as he is, don't you think he would have at least taken him in the 5th round ahead of that kicker? Bill seems to have a great system for later round picks and I'm not knocking that at all, but it's a system and it's still based mostly on luck. If he had any real insight into Onwenu, why didn't he take him in the 3rd round? I like how Bill is expected to have a bedside manner but the media isn’t. Personally, I love the way Bill does interviews. Asking questions mid season about draft history and results is honestly a stupid line of questioning. It’s grandstanding at its greatest while using the excuse of “it’s my job”. There’s no reason for Bill to talk about previous drafts. None, it offers no value to his team... literally Zero. If Curran wants to write about the Patriots drafts, that’s fine, go ahead. You have all the info you need without any input on how Bill feels about their results. Literally, all of it. On top of it, you KNOW, Bill won’t answer so literally the only point of the questions are to create a story by Bill not answering them and Tom Curran knows that and he should be above it. The media is in control of the narrative and wants “controversy” to write about so they create it and that’s just the world we are in. If a media member dared to push back and say what I said they’d get crucified by the rest of them so there is no point to doing it, but from where I sit , it was a stupid line of questioning to engage in. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 14, 2020 11:26:48 GMT -5
I don't get it. Last game was one of the better performances for young guys. The offense was basically two 2nd year guys in Meyers and Harris. Certain rookie OL looks like a stud. Heck the whole OL is guys we drafted right now. We had crazy dead money from Brady and guys like Brown trying to make him happy. We lost more to Covid opt outs than any team. We had a brand new QB with a crazy short training camp and no preseason games to get him ready. On top of that we've had injuries to our weak areas depth wise. I'd love to see other teams lose two starting WRs, top three TEs, starting RB and see what they do. Oh yeah and we basically lost three weeks of practice, our bye week and had a ton of guys get Covid. Given all that there's only one game they didn't compete in. A little better luck and this teams record could be 5-3, heck 6-2. They were always going to get better as the season went along, they are crazy young at a ton of spots. Yet Covid derailed that for a few weeks. Now injuries are getting a little crazy. Is this team ever going to catch a break? Assuming this is in response to his interview so: 1. Bill isn't going to catch a break from the media because he's been the worst interview in sports for 20 years. He may not necessarily be hated, but fewer punches would be thrown if he had a better bedside manner and that's 100% on him. 2. He can still be the best coach in the history of the NFL while also having a bad run of draft years. 3. If Bill had any idea that Onwenu was half as good as he is, don't you think he would have at least taken him in the 5th round ahead of that kicker? Bill seems to have a great system for later round picks and I'm not knocking that at all, but it's a system and it's still based mostly on luck. If he had any real insight into Onwenu, why didn't he take him in the 3rd round? It's called value drafting, Onwenu wasn't highly rated. Depending by what source you use, he could have been undrafted. It's not 20 years of luck picking OL guys. You don't find two OL guys in the 6th that can play as rookies based on luck. You don't hit on lower picks and undrafted guys year after year based on luck. If there's anything to complain about with Bill, it's that his draft boards are too small and he eliminates too many guys with red flags after Hernandez. Because of that he will overdraft guys. Herron was a much higher rated pick. We were talking about Onwenu playing DT early in the year because he wasn't rated highly. It's funny you bring this up, because my biggest issue with Bills drafting for years is him overdrafting guys because of his small boards. Recently trading up to get Cowart and Bailey, drafting them way above their rankings. Trading up for Keene, a guy who I truly believe would have been available in later rounds. Your way of thinking is that no team can make value picks, they just get lucky |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 14, 2020 12:49:13 GMT -5
Wow, Curran asked about the 2017-2020 drafts. Players on the team currently. I'd love to know how Bill is going to answer that question.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 14, 2020 13:06:38 GMT -5
I like how Bill is expected to have a bedside manner but the media isn’t. Personally, I love the way Bill does interviews. Asking questions mid season about draft history and results is honestly a stupid line of questioning. It’s grandstanding at its greatest while using the excuse of “it’s my job”. There’s no reason for Bill to talk about previous drafts. None, it offers no value to his team... literally Zero. If Curran wants to write about the Patriots drafts, that’s fine, go ahead. You have all the info you need without any input on how Bill feels about their results. Literally, all of it. On top of it, you KNOW, Bill won’t answer so literally the only point of the questions are to create a story by Bill not answering them and Tom Curran knows that and he should be above it. The media is in control of the narrative and wants “controversy” to write about so they create it and that’s just the world we are in. If a media member dared to push back and say what I said they’d get crucified by the rest of them so there is no point to doing it, but from where I sit , it was a stupid line of questioning to engage in. Don't get me wrong, I like a good Belichick interview most of the time. I'm just saying why the media is going to go after him all year. I don't know if I agree that Curran did anything wrong, even though I agree with your general assessment of the media. Curran is just looking for some cause and effect to a bad season and that's as good a place to start as any. Bill could have squashed the whole thing by manning up and acknowledging the issue. There's no controversy and no story if everyone is in agreement. Instead Bill played the "I'm the greatest coach of all time" card which was probably the worst thing he could have done. The media, being what they are, will feed on that for a month. But how does Bill quashing it add value to his team? If anything, it subtracts it. I think this is the part people miss. Bill would rather people talk trash about him than him give them any sound bites that are negative towards his players. Imagine being one of his picks and the coach saying, “yea we screwed up, the guys we drafted suck” meanwhile, you’re trying to coach these guys and get more out of them... When the team doesn’t play well, Bill can admit it by saying “we need to coach better and we need to execute better.” He can take responsibility and not put it all on his players and call it an execution problem. It’s an acknowledgement they need to do better but not one that they aren’t capable of it. If you say we haven’t drafted well then it is an acknowledgement to your players that they just aren’t good enough. That hurts the team it doesn’t help the team. All it does is satisfy a reporter. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 14, 2020 13:35:17 GMT -5
I think Bill adjusts and will do things slightly different. He's always done that. Let's give him some time to actually have a chance to do it. Without Covid and tons of dead cap money because of Brady
A year ago Harris looked like a bust, now he looks like a HR. It's why people usually don't grade draft classes till four plus years after.
These recent drafts had players taken at spots were the value was good and they were highly rated. It's not like Harry was seen as a 4th round pick and WRs can take years to reach their potential.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 14, 2020 14:11:01 GMT -5
I’m waiting until next year to see how this team transforms post Brady. I feel it’s the logical thing to do.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Nov 14, 2020 21:21:53 GMT -5
I think it may be time for the Pats to look for a young and up coming coach. Maybe someone like Nick Saban.
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