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Patriots 2020 season thread
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 30, 2020 6:48:16 GMT -5
When you don't make any catches and your name is only called when you make a penalty, I would call that a detriment. BB is not known for making great early draft picks. I think he has more undrafted picks starting than 1st round picks. He’s made a lot of great 1st round picks. In a slump the last few years but look back. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Nov 30, 2020 7:24:27 GMT -5
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Post by texs31 on Nov 30, 2020 7:36:01 GMT -5
If I think someone is a detriment, their draft position has ZERO to do with it. That's a transactional evaluation.
On the field, there is film on him destroying people in the run game (up until last week, Lazar and Kyles would demonstrate multiple plays where he was the key block, at least among non OL, in positive running plays). They would also be showing multiple plays where he was open and not targeted.
Listen, he's a failed 1st rd pick so far. I don't know how to defend otherwise. But if you're evaluating the player and not the pick, you have to try to ignore the 1st round status. If he was a 5th rd pick, I'm not sure you'd be upset at a pace of 40+ catches and great run blocking. We'd be more "meh". Fine. Upgradable to be sure. But I can't help but think the "detriment" label (overall this year) is being heavily weighted by his draft status.
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Post by voiceofreason on Nov 30, 2020 7:54:20 GMT -5
If I think someone is a detriment, their draft position has ZERO to do with it. That's a transactional evaluation. On the field, there is film on him destroying people in the run game (up until last week, Lazar and Kyles would demonstrate multiple plays where he was the key block, at least among non OL, in positive running plays). They would also be showing multiple plays where he was open and not targeted. Listen, he's a failed 1st rd pick so far. I don't know how to defend otherwise. But if you're evaluating the player and not the pick, you have to try to ignore the 1st round status. If he was a 5th rd pick, I'm not sure you'd be upset at a pace of 40+ catches and great run blocking. We'd be more "meh". Fine. Upgradable to be sure. But I can't help but think the "detriment" label (overall this year) is being heavily weighted by his draft status. While it does suck to see what that monster out in Seattle is doing you are absolutely right. He may never live up to the 1st rd expectations but I expect he will be productive, they just need to give him the chance. He has looked tough with the ball in his hands but not so much this year, injuries. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 30, 2020 8:24:50 GMT -5
If I think someone is a detriment, their draft position has ZERO to do with it. That's a transactional evaluation. On the field, there is film on him destroying people in the run game (up until last week, Lazar and Kyles would demonstrate multiple plays where he was the key block, at least among non OL, in positive running plays). They would also be showing multiple plays where he was open and not targeted. Listen, he's a failed 1st rd pick so far. I don't know how to defend otherwise. But if you're evaluating the player and not the pick, you have to try to ignore the 1st round status. If he was a 5th rd pick, I'm not sure you'd be upset at a pace of 40+ catches and great run blocking. We'd be more "meh". Fine. Upgradable to be sure. But I can't help but think the "detriment" label (overall this year) is being heavily weighted by his draft status. He’s on pace for 35 catches thru 11 games. I don’t care that he’s missed 2... his availability should factor into the equation. He is also on pace for those numbers by playing number 1 or 2 WR snap counts so that also should factor in. If he were on pace for those figures as a 4th wideout and was a great blocker then people would be fine with it. A big bodied 4th receiver who can block and theoretically catch contested passes in tight situational football is not a detriment it’s a nice piece to have. But you can’t say a number 1 wideout with his snap counts and production is offset by some good blocking so he’s not a negative in the role he’s supposedly occupying. This is where things get dicey. Maybe it’s not his fault he’s miscast like it’s not Bentley’s fault he’s miscast as an every down linebacker. But to act like they don’t hurt you on the field in the roles the a are filling I feel is inaccurate. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 30, 2020 12:13:53 GMT -5
Harry currently isn't playing #1 or #2 snap counts, not even close. I find this very funny after the game our QB just had. That wasn't because of our WRs. Who's better than Harry as our #3 WRs?
With Bentley I've seen Jennings be better, he's just a rookie who makes mistakes. Yet if you gave him playing time those would go away. I haven't seen a WR show more than Harry besides the two guys playing ahead of him currently in Byrd and Meyers.
The first six weeks, before Harry got injured where he was playing ahead of Meyers, you could say he was a detriment. Yet we've gone six games since then, so the timing is kinda weird. He's also a beast in the running game as Texas pointed out. I don't see it. Maybe once Ford understands the offense and is ready.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 30, 2020 12:17:27 GMT -5
For the record, I’m not saying he’s a “detriment” I tried to distance myself from that label. He’s just not very good or valuable. When so much focus is put on a receiver blocking, it’s usually because he’s not a good receiver.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 30, 2020 12:33:38 GMT -5
The thing with Harry is you need a good QB that trusts him to make plays and has the ability. Look at Stidham's TD to Harry. I wouldn't judge Harry too harshly given Newton's on and off season so far. He's been much more of a throw to an open guy than a timing QB. Harry isn't going to get crazy wide open, yet he has shown he can make plays when given the opportunity. I really want to see him with Stidham at QB. Stidham can do timing throws, something Newton really can't.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 30, 2020 12:50:35 GMT -5
Damn this team for winning. The best thing is to lose, play the young guys and get ready for next year. With a better draft pick.
The question with Newton for me was always could Bill make him better. At times you see it, yet he can't make him stop making those stupid mistakes. Like fumbles, interceptions or Cam just completely losing his mechanics. Highly inconsistent and you don't see him getting better every week.
I get it, Bill only tries to win and Newton can help you do that. He's likely the best option to try and sneak into the playoffs. Yet does anyone think we have a chance at anything more? It's like the Dolphins last year. They sucked bad for 60% of the season. Yet playing the young guys paid off towards the end and carried over to this year. We really need to focus on next year! Find out what we have in the young guys so you know what you need next year.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 30, 2020 12:59:23 GMT -5
Damn this team for winning. The best thing is to lose, play the young guys and get ready for next year. With a better draft pick. The question with Newton for me was always could Bill make him better. At times you see it, yet he can't make him stop making those stupid mistakes. Like fumbles, interceptions or Cam just completely losing his mechanics. Highly inconsistent and you don't see him getting better every week. I get it, Bill only tries to win and Newton can help you do that. He's likely the best option to try and sneak into the playoffs. Yet does anyone think we have a chance at anything more? It's like the Dolphins last year. They sucked bad for 60% of the season. Yet playing the young guys paid off towards the end and carried over to this year. We really need to focus on next year! Find out what we have in the young guys so you know what you need next year. They’ll likely finish 7-9... maybe 8-8... What young guys do you want playing that aren’t though? Uche and Duggar seem to be getting a lot of snaps now... maybe more Fleming? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 30, 2020 13:15:20 GMT -5
Uche just played 22% of the snaps, Jennings 19%, while Bentley played 82%. I want Stidham to play. Asiasi is ready to go, I'd play him full time and actually target him in games. I want to see more of JJ Taylor who looks like the perfect replacement for White. I wouldn't mind seeing Maluia at LB either.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Nov 30, 2020 13:28:11 GMT -5
I definitely want to win the division games, if they lose to the LA teams in competitive fashion so be it. Even though 8-8 would be disappointing overall, going 5-1 against the division and ending on a three game win streak would be a nicer consolation prize to me than improving their draft position. It'd be a nice reminder to the division that even in their worst year the Patriots were still successful against the division. Also, the difference in picks for 6-10 vs 8-8 isn't likely to be as substantial as you'd think. Now, 5-11 would be different, but losing the last five games including to the Jets would not be a net positive for this team's development, the draft is important but not THAT important.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 30, 2020 14:18:33 GMT -5
Last year looks like 6-10 got you pick 9/10, Cowboys at 8-8 got pick 17. That's a fairly massive difference. Especially if you want a QB. Now apply that to all seven rounds and the difference is massive. www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value-Chart.aspThe difference from 10 to 17 is a late second round pick. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 30, 2020 14:28:45 GMT -5
Uche just played 22% of the snaps, Jennings 19%, while Bentley played 82%. I want Stidham to play. Asiasi is ready to go, I'd play him full time and actually target him in games. I want to see more of JJ Taylor who looks like the perfect replacement for White. I wouldn't mind seeing Maluia at LB either. At least, Uche seems to be on the rise... but overall I agree with you. I’d rather start Herron at LT too. Bill has always played the best guys though and that’s part of the culture so it’s a delicate balance. |
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,046
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Post by mobaz on Nov 30, 2020 14:57:41 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 30, 2020 15:13:11 GMT -5
Yeah Bill does things his way and is always wired to win the next game. He won't switch course till they are truly eliminated from the playoffs and at this rate it might not happen or it'll be the last game.
Yet you get players like Harris and Meyers where you question if Bill is putting too much focus on mistakes and not upside. Like what's last year's playoff game like with Harris? What's the first part of this year like with Meyers starting?
What are the outcomes of some of our close games if Jennings was actually given more opportunities? Bentley doesn't make mistakes, yet he struggles to make impactful plays and gets beat all the time. Jennings can make impactful plays, the difference in ability is huge. Yet he takes bad angles and does things like not contain the edge, picks the wrong gap. Yet that's just a lack of playing time issue. Take the ding for a few games to get the upside.
It's why I feel tanking is best, like where's the upside? Bentley isn't going to become a beast in the playoffs, Izzo isn't going to explode. Now Asiasi, Jennings, Uche are players that could. Their growth could impact games. Heck even Taylor is a massive upgrade rushing compared to White. He's a playmaker, he might be the best open field runner on the team. He's the guy I want doing screens and option plays.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 30, 2020 15:18:06 GMT -5
One bad game by Fields knocks him to 6? No offense to Wilson, yet he hasn't played a good team all year. |
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Nov 30, 2020 15:26:15 GMT -5
Brugler thinks (and has consistently said) that Fields requires development with his passing vision and reads. I'd still take Fields over Wilson because he has such great touch in the 10-20 yard range, can chuck it downfield, and his mobility fits today's game on designed runs, broken passing plays, and throws outside the pocket.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 30, 2020 15:47:42 GMT -5
Yeah Bill does things his way and is always wired to win the next game. He won't switch course till they are truly eliminated from the playoffs and at this rate it might not happen or it'll be the last game. Yet you get players like Harris and Meyers where you question if Bill is putting too much focus on mistakes and not upside. Like what's last year's playoff game like with Harris? What's the first part of this year like with Meyers starting? What are the outcomes of some of our close games if Jennings was actually given more opportunities? Bentley doesn't make mistakes, yet he struggles to make impactful plays and gets beat all the time. Jennings can make impactful plays, the difference in ability is huge. Yet he takes bad angles and does things like not contain the edge, picks the wrong gap. Yet that's just a lack of playing time issue. Take the ding for a few games to get the upside. It's why I feel tanking is best, like where's the upside? Bentley isn't going to become a beast in the playoffs, Izzo isn't going to explode. Now Asiasi, Jennings, Uche are players that could. Their growth could impact games. Heck even Taylor is a massive upgrade rushing compared to White. He's a playmaker, he might be the best open field runner on the team. He's the guy I want doing screens and option plays. I’m with you so this is more devils advocate. I do believe culture matters in the NFL so there’s value in doing things the way Bill does them. You don’t want to lose veterans and not have consequences to poor play. Like we all complained when Winos snap counts went way down but he’s been a better player since then. Also, with Jennings and Uche, I’ve heard Chatham talk about how putting too much on those guys too early with the lack of camp is a recipe for disaster and player confidence does matter as well.... as long as those snaps keep trending up I’ll be ok but if they flatten or drop I’ll be upset by it. Look at Duggar... he’s seemed to break thru and they are letting him play thru his coverage issues so that’s a plus... maybe give us some hope. 100% with you on Asiasi... there’s not even an argument the guy ahead of him is good at anything |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 30, 2020 16:08:30 GMT -5
Brugler thinks (and has consistently said) that Fields requires development with his passing vision and reads. I'd still take Fields over Wilson because he has such great touch in the 10-20 yard range, can chuck it downfield, and his mobility fits today's game on designed runs, broken passing plays, and throws outside the pocket. Most QBs aren't perfect coming out of College. Yet Fields stats for the last two years are crazy. I've watched a few games and he looks good to me. My only question is what's inside his head. Now Wilson is putting up massive numbers this year, yet had 11 TDs to 9 interceptions last year when he actually played teams with NFL talent. Heck his last two games were horrible against so so teams. That's why I need to see him in a bowl game against a good team. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 30, 2020 18:39:29 GMT -5
I think Mack Jones looks good so he’s a nice grab in the second round. Snag a top wideout in round 1 and him round 2. Maybe Detroit moves on from Stafford. I’d take a year or two of him to bridge.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 30, 2020 21:34:16 GMT -5
What the hell happened to Wentz?
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 30, 2020 21:57:27 GMT -5
What the hell happened to Wentz? I don't really know, but I'm glad I watched the second quarter just to see THAT SNAP lol. Wentz did a hell of a play to save it though. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 30, 2020 23:50:47 GMT -5
Most QBs aren't perfect coming out of College. Yet Fields stats for the last two years are crazy. I've watched a few games and he looks good to me. My only question is what's inside his head. Now Wilson is putting up massive numbers this year, yet had 11 TDs to 9 interceptions last year when he actually played teams with NFL talent. Heck his last two games were horrible against so so teams. That's why I need to see him in a bowl game against a good team. FWIW, Carolina seems to like Bridgewater and probably keeps him long term so I'd put one QB back on the draft board. Just curious - what's your take on Trask? I've seen him go in the 1st round in a bunch of different mocks but he doesn't get mentioned with the top QBs very often. I haven't seen him play live yet, so I'm going to hold back. I've seen the top two guys multiple times. Yet the stats are crazy in the SEC. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 30, 2020 23:53:04 GMT -5
What the hell happened to Wentz? First time watching him this year? It's why I said don't count the Eagles out of a QB. He doesn't look like a franchise QB. |
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