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Patriots 2020 season thread
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Post by philarhody on Sept 21, 2020 17:26:52 GMT -5
Wise is not a LB, he's DL one of the few we have. I'm not a big fan of trying to determine roles because the Patriots will do a bunch of things with these guys and it changes weekly. Yet call them ILB or Move, which for last game looked like Bentley, Copeland and Phillips. They gave you 16 tackles and the only big play was that call the announcers said they almost never do with Carson for a TD. What was the issues with them? Our DL only had seven tackles total, isn't that a bigger issue? The fact they always allow a RB to get to the second level? You don't have your MLB or move guys close to the line with Wilson expecting runs, you worry about him throwing it. We got good pressure, heck if it was Brady we'd have had like 6 sacks. Yet if you are playing one, two, or three DL guys with zero massive 350 beasts you're in trouble no? It's then 300 plus pound OL guys going against our 250 pound LBers. Even with all our LBers last year and Shelton we'd get run on because Bill played one, two and three DL, with three not happening a good amount of the time. What am I missing? Last night sure looked like our CBs got beat by a great QB, who avoided sacks all night long, with a bunch of great play calls they basically never used before. Along with the lack of DL allowing the RB to always get to the second level. Yet seems like the plan, they wanted the Seahawks to run it and not throw. I agree with you on this one, Umass. The Seahawks are probably a top 4 team in the league this year. I still don’t know how Metcalf and Moore caught those passes. I think Belichick walks away encouraged by this game. Seattle needed two perfectly thrown bombs and a last second goal line stop to beat your team with a brand new quarterback and a revamped front seven. New England had some big stops and if you take away those two aforementioned throws (I still don’t know how that ball penetrated Gilmore’s hand/arm and Moore stayed in bounds) New England holds Wilson under 200 yards passing and probably wins the ballgame. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 21, 2020 20:10:09 GMT -5
You might not be a fan of breaking them out like that but that’s basically how the team looks at it. Yes the scheme changes each week but you still need those roles filled. I referenced linebacker specifically, but the whole front 7 is an issue. I agree with you the big guys are a problem but I think there are at least bodies there that could do the job. At the middle linebacker spot, they basically have no one unless Bentley is going to become a different player, which is possible. I remember Hightower played and looked really slow until he was comfortable I say that because it's really true, as Phillips who is listed as a safety played middle LB last game. By my count we have Copeland, Bentley, Jennings, Maluia and some people list Uche there yet I think he's just a rusher till I see more. Plus you can basically add Phillips to that list based off of last game and wouldn't be surprised to Williams or Dugger do that also based on match-ups. So we certainly have bodies and I'd expect we just keep seeing more and more of Jennings. So for me it's not Bentley, not even close. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 21, 2020 20:12:08 GMT -5
Oh and I really hope Duggar can take over for Phillips. At middle LBer? Dugger played 54% of the snaps and was basically the starting SS by my count. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 22, 2020 6:18:28 GMT -5
You might not be a fan of breaking them out like that but that’s basically how the team looks at it. Yes the scheme changes each week but you still need those roles filled. I referenced linebacker specifically, but the whole front 7 is an issue. I agree with you the big guys are a problem but I think there are at least bodies there that could do the job. At the middle linebacker spot, they basically have no one unless Bentley is going to become a different player, which is possible. I remember Hightower played and looked really slow until he was comfortable I say that because it's really true, as Phillips who is listed as a safety played middle LB last game. By my count we have Copeland, Bentley, Jennings, Maluia and some people list Uche there yet I think he's just a rusher till I see more. Plus you can basically add Phillips to that list based off of last game and wouldn't be surprised to Williams or Dugger do that also based on match-ups. So we certainly have bodies and I'd expect we just keep seeing more and more of Jennings. So for me it's not Bentley, not even close. Sorry let me rephrase “potentially capable bodies”. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 22, 2020 6:50:32 GMT -5
Oh and I really hope Duggar can take over for Phillips. At middle LBer? Dugger played 54% of the snaps and was basically the starting SS by my count. He wasn’t the starting SS he played 54% of the snaps and Philips played 78% of the snaps. The Patriots player 0 snaps in a base defense, that was game plan born out of the inability to have any capable middle linebackers. Bentley is the best they have and he’s pretty terrible. Maybe he gets better but right now he’s awful. People keep pointing to a couple big plays as evidence the defense didn’t play that bad, but that’s overlooking what actually happened. Seattle gashed the defense and were never in third and long situation. They picked up chunk plays on the ground that created favorable down and distance situations. All the Seattle touchdowns were on 1st and 2nd down; it’s not like the drives were close to over if they fell incomplete. Right now Cam Newton looks great but the defense is not looking promising. Hightower i think would change everything for them as they could scheme differently but he’s not walking thru that door. Hopefully Jennings and Uche can get on the field and at least get experience. Even if they screw up more their athleticism should let them make plays and they can hopefully improve. Bentley and Copeland are TERRIBLE. |
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Post by texs31 on Sept 22, 2020 7:01:04 GMT -5
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Post by texs31 on Sept 22, 2020 8:27:01 GMT -5
Wise is not a LB, he's DL one of the few we have. "EDIT - TBC, I don't actually consider Wise and LB but he does play Edge so I mentioned him)." Right |
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 22, 2020 12:31:17 GMT -5
 Strong words |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 22, 2020 12:33:30 GMT -5
I say that because it's really true, as Phillips who is listed as a safety played middle LB last game. By my count we have Copeland, Bentley, Jennings, Maluia and some people list Uche there yet I think he's just a rusher till I see more. Plus you can basically add Phillips to that list based off of last game and wouldn't be surprised to Williams or Dugger do that also based on match-ups. So we certainly have bodies and I'd expect we just keep seeing more and more of Jennings. So for me it's not Bentley, not even close. Sorry let me rephrase “potentially capable bodies”. How is that really different than guys like Cowart and Thurman who played in the game? We're seeing more and more of the rookies each game. Everyone of them is more new age type LB also, not the bigger slower hitters like Bentley. They just need time. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 22, 2020 12:50:07 GMT -5
At middle LBer? Dugger played 54% of the snaps and was basically the starting SS by my count. He wasn’t the starting SS he played 54% of the snaps and Philips played 78% of the snaps. The Patriots player 0 snaps in a base defense, that was game plan born out of the inability to have any capable middle linebackers. Bentley is the best they have and he’s pretty terrible. Maybe he gets better but right now he’s awful. People keep pointing to a couple big plays as evidence the defense didn’t play that bad, but that’s overlooking what actually happened. Seattle gashed the defense and were never in third and long situation. They picked up chunk plays on the ground that created favorable down and distance situations. All the Seattle touchdowns were on 1st and 2nd down; it’s not like the drives were close to over if they fell incomplete. Right now Cam Newton looks great but the defense is not looking promising. Hightower i think would change everything for them as they could scheme differently but he’s not walking thru that door. Hopefully Jennings and Uche can get on the field and at least get experience. Even if they screw up more their athleticism should let them make plays and they can hopefully improve. Bentley and Copeland are TERRIBLE. Phillips played LBer more than safety last game, he was lining up next to Bentley for half the plays, the other half was Copeland. Looking at the snap count that works out perfectly almost, Dugger played more snaps at SS than Phillips Here's what I saw, one of the top QBs in the league, you played passing all game so they would run and limit the pass plays. Think Titian's game in playoffs. Yet it didn't work because our CBs got beat by a great QB making unreal plays. They don't score than many points without those big plays. Doesn't mean drives are over, yet it's crazy hard to just run over a team in this league, especially when you get inside the 20 and D isn't spread out. Answer me this, didn't we get run over the second half of all last year with Van Noy, Collins and Hightower? Bentley isn't very good, yet it's the D in general. It's designed so teams do run to limit the pass, which didn't happen. Yet most QBs can't do what Wilson just did either. Even with those three, it didn't stop the we got gashed by the run, not when you play the pass. Even great LBers can't stop the run when they are in pass defense no? |
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 22, 2020 13:05:17 GMT -5
He wasn’t the starting SS he played 54% of the snaps and Philips played 78% of the snaps. The Patriots player 0 snaps in a base defense, that was game plan born out of the inability to have any capable middle linebackers. Bentley is the best they have and he’s pretty terrible. Maybe he gets better but right now he’s awful. People keep pointing to a couple big plays as evidence the defense didn’t play that bad, but that’s overlooking what actually happened. Seattle gashed the defense and were never in third and long situation. They picked up chunk plays on the ground that created favorable down and distance situations. All the Seattle touchdowns were on 1st and 2nd down; it’s not like the drives were close to over if they fell incomplete. Right now Cam Newton looks great but the defense is not looking promising. Hightower i think would change everything for them as they could scheme differently but he’s not walking thru that door. Hopefully Jennings and Uche can get on the field and at least get experience. Even if they screw up more their athleticism should let them make plays and they can hopefully improve. Bentley and Copeland are TERRIBLE. Phillips played LBer more than safety last game, he was lining up next to Bentley for half the plays, the other half was Copeland. Looking at the snap count that works out perfectly almost, Dugger played more snaps at SS than Phillips That’s not how it works.... Duggar went in to replace Phillips when they moved Phillips. Phillips was option one. They don’t have a package where they don’t have at least 2 safeties on the field. When they had 2 it was mostly Phillips with McCourty. That will change and it should and that’s good. I don’t think we disagree on this. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 22, 2020 13:11:08 GMT -5
Also, I don’t know what you’re arguing against me with. We both seem to think the front 7 is weak. I happened to single out the linebackers, specially the non-edge guys because we have no answer there.
If you think that Bill wants to spend 100% of the game even against a passing QB in Nickle and Dime then we will just have to agree to disagree. He’s doing that because they have a lack of personnel to do anything else.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 22, 2020 13:12:08 GMT -5
Phillips played LBer more than safety last game, he was lining up next to Bentley for half the plays, the other half was Copeland. Looking at the snap count that works out perfectly almost, Dugger played more snaps at SS than Phillips That’s not how it works.... Duggar went in to replace Phillips when they moved Phillips. Phillips was option one. They don’t have a package where they don’t have at least 2 safeties on the field. When they had 2 it was mostly Phillips with McCourty. That will change and it should and that’s good. I don’t think we disagree on this. You are totally missing the point, Phillips played LB most of the game. You get they played a ton of three safeties right? That Phillips and Dugger were both on the field at the same time? Same thing they did with Chung for years and how they'd use Harmon. Chung played LB, Harmon played safety. This isn't Dugger only played when Phillips came out. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 22, 2020 13:18:22 GMT -5
Also, I don’t know what you’re arguing against me with. We both seem to think the front 7 is weak. I happened to single out the linebackers, specially the non-edge guys because we have no answer there. If you think that Bill wants to spend 100% of the game even against a passing QB in Nickle and Dime then we will just have to agree to disagree. He’s doing that because they have a lack of personnel to do anything else. That's my problem, you thinking it's lack of personal. It totally overlooks the last few years. They played a ton of that last year, the year before they played a ton of that with just Hightower and Chung. Bill gushed all week about Wilson and you act like the D wasn't designed to stop him, it was just lack of personal. You know it can be Bentley is bad and the D wouldn't have been much different even if it was Hightower right? Hightower when in a passing D, which means he's back isn't getting to the line to stop RBs before they get to the second level no? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 22, 2020 13:33:26 GMT -5
Wise is not a LB, he's DL one of the few we have. "EDIT - TBC, I don't actually consider Wise and LB but he does play Edge so I mentioned him)." Right Plays the Edge when? He does in a 4-3. He certainly doesn't in a 3-4. If you want to get technical about roles you can't call Wise an edge player in this D. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 22, 2020 13:53:59 GMT -5
I want to add that also part of the problem saying which D the Patriots were in kinda reflects the problem of labeling guys. Example if you count Phillips as a safety vs LBer. Phillips is basically a small LBer more than a true safety. I love that role for him, which allows Duggar to play more coverage. It's why they signed him. He might not be great in Coverage for a SS, yet he's better than most LBers.
Another point is how does lack of LBers mean you mostly play only two DL guys most of the game? You do that to stop the pass, not the run.
They gave up over 5 yards a rush, yet longest by a RB was 13 yards. So the second level guys did there job in not giving up huge plays. It was tons of 4-6 yard runs, which isn't on the LBers when they are playing the pass and 5-7 yards off the line.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 22, 2020 14:10:32 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 22, 2020 14:11:14 GMT -5
That’s not how it works.... Duggar went in to replace Phillips when they moved Phillips. Phillips was option one. They don’t have a package where they don’t have at least 2 safeties on the field. When they had 2 it was mostly Phillips with McCourty. That will change and it should and that’s good. I don’t think we disagree on this. You are totally missing the point, Phillips played LB most of the game. You get they played a ton of three safeties right? That Phillips and Dugger were both on the field at the same time? Same thing they did with Chung for years and how they'd use Harmon. Chung played LB, Harmon played safety. This isn't Dugger only played when Phillips came out. The point is Phillips is higher on the safety totem pole at the moment - I’m hoping that changes. If he wasn’t the snap count wouldn’t be higher. It doesn’t matter that some of Phillips snaps were at linebacker - you can’t play 2 spots at once. They always have at least 2 safeties on the field at once. If you are telling me Duggar was the primary SS, then his snap count would be 100% or close to it. It’s half that. And listen he’s a rookie so I’m not complaining it’s not right now but they should be passing each other in snap count soon. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 22, 2020 14:14:48 GMT -5
Also, I don’t know what you’re arguing against me with. We both seem to think the front 7 is weak. I happened to single out the linebackers, specially the non-edge guys because we have no answer there. If you think that Bill wants to spend 100% of the game even against a passing QB in Nickle and Dime then we will just have to agree to disagree. He’s doing that because they have a lack of personnel to do anything else. That's my problem, you thinking it's lack of personal. It totally overlooks the last few years. They played a ton of that last year, the year before they played a ton of that with just Hightower and Chung. Bill gushed all week about Wilson and you act like the D wasn't designed to stop him, it was just lack of personal. You know it can be Bentley is bad and the D wouldn't have been much different even if it was Hightower right? Hightower when in a passing D, which means he's back isn't getting to the line to stop RBs before they get to the second level no? So you think that Bill wants to give up 6-7 yards a run and is designing his defense to do that or do you think the players (aka personnel) aren’t good enough to stop that? It’s one or the other - can’t be both. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 22, 2020 14:21:04 GMT -5
Also last year they had 5 guys who COULD play in the middle lb spot... Hightower, KVN, Collins, Roberts and Bentley. This year they have Bentley and who? Copeland (?), Jennings (?)? A lot of those guys were interchangeable too so they could disguise who was where, rush from different spots and drop elsewhere. They can’t do that this year... at least not yet and unlikely they can. It’s a problem...
Yes, Chung played in the box some as a SS type linebacker but there’s a difference between using that look and it being your only real option.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 22, 2020 14:24:16 GMT -5
To be clear you I’ve never said the only problem is the linebackers - I’ve specifically said the entire front 7 is the problem but you keep arguing like I’m saying it’s all on the linebackers. I’m highlighting them because I don’t see the personnel to improve there. We lost our top 3/4 guys and haven’t really replaced them adequately.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 22, 2020 14:32:42 GMT -5
You are totally missing the point, Phillips played LB most of the game. You get they played a ton of three safeties right? That Phillips and Dugger were both on the field at the same time? Same thing they did with Chung for years and how they'd use Harmon. Chung played LB, Harmon played safety. This isn't Dugger only played when Phillips came out. The point is Phillips is higher on the safety totem pole at the moment - I’m hoping that changes. If he wasn’t the snap count wouldn’t be higher. It doesn’t matter that some of Phillips snaps were at linebacker - you can’t play 2 spots at once. They always have at least 2 safeties on the field at once. If you are telling me Duggar was the primary SS, then his snap count would be 100% or close to it. It’s half that. And listen he’s a rookie so I’m not complaining it’s not right now but they should be passing each other in snap count soon. I'm saying I think that just changed and the problem is acting like Phillips is just a safety. He can play more and still not be the top SS if he's playing LB. I also don't think you have to be 100% to be a starter in this D. Not with our CB against a guy like Wilson, you'll move a guy like Jason McCourty or Williams there from time to time. Now you can argue Dugger should have Chung's role and do what Phillips is doing. Yet just like with Harmon, he's better in Coverage so I don't change that. I thought Phillips looked good outside of that one play. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 22, 2020 14:41:08 GMT -5
That's my problem, you thinking it's lack of personal. It totally overlooks the last few years. They played a ton of that last year, the year before they played a ton of that with just Hightower and Chung. Bill gushed all week about Wilson and you act like the D wasn't designed to stop him, it was just lack of personal. You know it can be Bentley is bad and the D wouldn't have been much different even if it was Hightower right? Hightower when in a passing D, which means he's back isn't getting to the line to stop RBs before they get to the second level no? So you think that Bill wants to give up 6-7 yards a run and is designing his defense to do that or do you think the players (aka personnel) aren’t good enough to stop that? It’s one or the other - can’t be both. First RB averaged 4.6 yards a carry, not 6-7 yards. Why can't it be both? He wants to play the pass, so he uses that D. Yet Allen is injured so he's playing smaller guys that aren't suited for that. He wants them to run, so they aren't passing. That's crystal clear, other wise why only play 1.88 DL guys a play? Please walk me through your thought process how it the LB that affect the DL? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 22, 2020 14:46:35 GMT -5
Also last year they had 5 guys who COULD play in the middle lb spot... Hightower, KVN, Collins, Roberts and Bentley. This year they have Bentley and who? Copeland (?), Jennings (?)? A lot of those guys were interchangeable too so they could disguise who was where, rush from different spots and drop elsewhere. They can’t do that this year... at least not yet and unlikely they can. It’s a problem... Yes, Chung played in the box some as a SS type linebacker but there’s a difference between using that look and it being your only real option. Copeland and Jennings can both do those things, that's what I don't get with what your saying. Only Bentley can't do those things and they never did those things playing D to stop the pass. They were rushing Phillips when he got beat deep, it's a big reason he got beat. Did we get run on with those guys? If you really want to discuss this you need to answer that question. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 22, 2020 15:07:25 GMT -5
To be clear you I’ve never said the only problem is the linebackers - I’ve specifically said the entire front 7 is the problem but you keep arguing like I’m saying it’s all on the linebackers. I’m highlighting them because I don’t see the personnel to improve there. We lost our top 3/4 guys and haven’t really replaced them adequately. Well to be clear you blamed the LB, then later on added the whole DL after I pointed out a few things. I don't think our LBers are currently great, they weren't the big issue last game. It was us selling out to stop the pass by allowing them to run it and still giving up huge plays to WRs. All those LBers were mostly used to get pressure no? On most plays two of them were going after the QB. For me we had no issue getting pressure last game, Wilson is just a mobile QB. I've been rather impressed by the edge guys rushing and last year they also weren't good against the run when you use that D. They used Chung a ton as a LB with Harmon playing safety last year also. Let's not act like that's just because we have no one. You don't sign Phillips, draft Dugger with Chung and McCourty if you don't plan on doing that. So what you really need is that group to replace one guy from last year, which was basically Hightower. As time goes on Bentley should be used like Roberts. Short yardage, goal line crap or against power running teams. Maybe I'm too high on Jennings, yet I think he's going to be really good. He was a first round type guy before his injury. He's actually a lot like Hightower. With Uche as a huge wildcard. I'll be worried if by the 5th game basically after your normal preseason if Jennings is only playing 3 downs and Bentley is playing 100%. Right now I'm just chalking this up to a short preseason and that Bentley has the most experience. Just like with Phillips over Dugger, Izzo over Asiasi etc. They didn't have enough time to get fully ready. What you see today won't be what you see going forward. Now if I'm wrong and those guys aren't playing because they suck, yeah I'd be worried. I'm not even close to there yet though. |
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