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2021 Manager Search (Cora Returns)
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Nov 6, 2020 14:46:29 GMT -5
Fuld coming in as bench coach? The FO has already "dictated" a fair bit of the coaching staff, and I feel like Roenicki was from on high to begin with as an "experienced manager" consigliere. Really doubt it. He’ll be a manager somewhere else soon If he has a good relationship with Bloom it wouldn't surprise me to see him come for an upgraded role with the Sox and then take a job next year.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Nov 6, 2020 14:48:19 GMT -5
Banners win out. I also lived through the steroid era where everyone more or less was on something. What Cora did was bad but he also did get a raw deal considering the players didn't receive any punishment and they were just as guilty. This is a nice litmus test for how people feel about "moral relativism"... Looks like the Sox have gone with the SEC Football approach. I think I disapprove. This kind of thing is how franchises become universally reviled by fans of other teams. You talk about moral relativism but like... Anecdotally it seems pretty easy to surmise that every team in every high level sport is cheating in one form or another. If Cora cheated but is caught, does that make him better than Manager X who is currently cheating but hasn't gotten caught? I'm not saying I'm pro-cheating but I'm also not going to act like he's the lone sinner in a sea of saints.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 6, 2020 15:13:38 GMT -5
New Manager and President-elect in the same day? Yes please! I've been busy all day because we just had our cleaning guy over for the first time since COVID. I just found out this when a friend texted me with the exact same observation.
Pretty thrilled. Everyone can bump up their 2021 projections for Devers and Bogaerts.
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Post by chr31ter on Nov 6, 2020 15:14:07 GMT -5
He cheated.
He got punished.
MLB chose the length of the suspension. He did his time.
I think he's a really good manager. If ownership is comfortable with him, I'm not sure it's up to any of us to judge him any more than Manfred and company already did.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 6, 2020 15:16:13 GMT -5
Fuld coming in as bench coach? The FO has already "dictated" a fair bit of the coaching staff, and I feel like Roenicki was from on high to begin with as an "experienced manager" consigliere. I don't think Fuld will be bench coach, but I do hope that Bloom can get him in the organization, even if it's for a limited time. There are no more job openings right now. Maybe Fuld prefers to sit around and wait for a manager to get fired or see if the Mets job comes open with the change in ownership, but if he doesn't see a managerial job to get, maybe he can work in the Red Sox organization? Or does he simply return to the Phillies organization? It sounds like he can definitely be an asset and maybe he can get some big visibility to aid him in eventually becoming a manager sooner than later. Meanwhile, he could be a help to the 2021 Red Sox. I don't know much about Fuld, but it sounds like he has the makings of a good manager down the road. I really wanted Cora back but would have been ok with Fuld. I am glad Cora is back, though. I was worried he wouldn't be. Just hope Bloom is comfortable with this decision.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 6, 2020 15:20:15 GMT -5
Fuld coming in as bench coach? The FO has already "dictated" a fair bit of the coaching staff, and I feel like Roenicki was from on high to begin with as an "experienced manager" consigliere. I don't think Fuld will be bench coach, but I do hope that Bloom can get him in the organization, even if it's for a limited time. There are no more job openings right now. Maybe Fuld prefers to sit around and wait for a manager to get fired or see if the Mets job comes open with the change in ownership, but if he doesn't see a managerial job to get, maybe he can work in the Red Sox organization? Or does he simply return to the Phillies organization? It sounds like he can definitely be an asset and maybe he can get some big visibility to aid him in eventually becoming a manager sooner than later. Meanwhile, he could be a help to the 2021 Red Sox. I don't know much about Fuld, but it sounds like he has the makings of a good manager down the road. I really wanted Cora back but would have been ok with Fuld. I am glad Cora is back, though. I was worried he wouldn't be. Just hope Bloom is comfortable with this decision. Just saw the post. The Mets have cleaned house with the change of ownership. The GM is gone. I would guess the manager will be, too, soon. Don't know who the Mets will hire as GM and if they're looking for a new manager like Fuld or if Fuld would want to get into the situation, but that would be the one opening that should soon be available.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Nov 6, 2020 15:34:30 GMT -5
Who was the bench coach under Ron Roenicke in 2020? Wouldn't he just be coming back?
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Post by manfred on Nov 6, 2020 15:35:22 GMT -5
This is a nice litmus test for how people feel about "moral relativism"... Looks like the Sox have gone with the SEC Football approach. I think I disapprove. This kind of thing is how franchises become universally reviled by fans of other teams. You talk about moral relativism but like... Anecdotally it seems pretty easy to surmise that every team in every high level sport is cheating in one form or another. If Cora cheated but is caught, does that make him better than Manager X who is currently cheating but hasn't gotten caught? I'm not saying I'm pro-cheating but I'm also not going to act like he's the lone sinner in a sea of saints. That is actually moral relativism. I mean, you can say others *probably* cheat, so hiring him is ok, but that means you can’t *complain* that others cheat, because their cheating was the justification for the rehire. If someone cheats and you get the vapors, remember the “hey, everyone does it” argument.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 6, 2020 16:00:06 GMT -5
Who was the bench coach under Ron Roenicke in 2020? Wouldn't he just be coming back? Jerry Narron was the bench coach and he was let go along with Craig Bjornsen after the season ended. He's not coming back. It's more likely Roenicke comes back as bench coach, although I don't think he will. Then again I didn't think Cora was coming back, so what do I know?
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Nov 6, 2020 16:20:21 GMT -5
You talk about moral relativism but like... Anecdotally it seems pretty easy to surmise that every team in every high level sport is cheating in one form or another. If Cora cheated but is caught, does that make him better than Manager X who is currently cheating but hasn't gotten caught? I'm not saying I'm pro-cheating but I'm also not going to act like he's the lone sinner in a sea of saints. That is actually moral relativism. I mean, you can say others *probably* cheat, so hiring him is ok, but that means you can’t *complain* that others cheat, because their cheating was the justification for the rehire. If someone cheats and you get the vapors, remember the “hey, everyone does it” argument. Others cheating is not the justification for the rehire. Cora being a damn good coach that the players love is the justification for the rehire.
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Post by p23w on Nov 6, 2020 17:24:25 GMT -5
Fuld coming in as bench coach? The FO has already "dictated" a fair bit of the coaching staff, and I feel like Roenicki was from on high to begin with as an "experienced manager" consigliere. I don't think Fuld will be bench coach, but I do hope that Bloom can get him in the organization, even if it's for a limited time. There are no more job openings right now. Maybe Fuld prefers to sit around and wait for a manager to get fired or see if the Mets job comes open with the change in ownership, but if he doesn't see a managerial job to get, maybe he can work in the Red Sox organization? Or does he simply return to the Phillies organization? It sounds like he can definitely be an asset and maybe he can get some big visibility to aid him in eventually becoming a manager sooner than later. Meanwhile, he could be a help to the 2021 Red Sox. I don't know much about Fuld, but it sounds like he has the makings of a good manager down the road. I really wanted Cora back but would have been ok with Fuld. I am glad Cora is back, though. I was worried he wouldn't be. Just hope Bloom is comfortable with this decision. Meh. We shall see. Managers come and go. Looking at the Rays pitching and the Yankees interest in Lindor somehow makes this change seem somewhat insignificant. (Don't forget the Jays either)
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 6, 2020 17:34:38 GMT -5
I don't think Fuld will be bench coach, but I do hope that Bloom can get him in the organization, even if it's for a limited time. There are no more job openings right now. Maybe Fuld prefers to sit around and wait for a manager to get fired or see if the Mets job comes open with the change in ownership, but if he doesn't see a managerial job to get, maybe he can work in the Red Sox organization? Or does he simply return to the Phillies organization? It sounds like he can definitely be an asset and maybe he can get some big visibility to aid him in eventually becoming a manager sooner than later. Meanwhile, he could be a help to the 2021 Red Sox. I don't know much about Fuld, but it sounds like he has the makings of a good manager down the road. I really wanted Cora back but would have been ok with Fuld. I am glad Cora is back, though. I was worried he wouldn't be. Just hope Bloom is comfortable with this decision. Meh. We shall see. Managers come and go. Looking at the Rays pitching and the Yankees interest in Lindor somehow makes this change seem somewhat insignificant. (Don't forget the Jays either) Managers come and go, but they're not all equal. The Red Sox were at their best the 8 seasons they had Francona. I don't think they would have thrived as well with another manager. I don't think the 1967 Red Sox win the pennant without Dick Williams. I don't think the 1988 Red Sox win with John McNamara leading that bunch. And the 2018 Red Sox don't win 119 games with somebody else. Does that mean I think the Red Sox are instant contenders without Cora and that he's magically going to fix them? No (I know others will disagree on that), I don't. Still, I don't see this as insignificant. I also don't think Cora was hired with the thought of being fired. He'll get a lot of rope here as long as he stays scandal free. Bloom is looking to rebuild, which normally takes some time. And if he is hiring Cora, then he's looking at Cora to grow with the team as it changes over and there will be a lot of changes in player personnel.
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Post by chr31ter on Nov 6, 2020 17:41:29 GMT -5
I can't think of a single reason why Chaim Bloom would feel any sense of loyalty to Alex Cora. I don't think he's coming back. Nice call, dummy.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Nov 6, 2020 17:43:49 GMT -5
Who was the bench coach under Ron Roenicke in 2020? Wouldn't he just be coming back? Jerry Narron was the bench coach and he was let go along with Craig Bjornsen after the season ended. He's not coming back. It's more likely Roenicke comes back as bench coach, although I don't think he will. Then again I didn't think Cora was coming back, so what do I know? Beltran. If you're going to get under the skin of everyone anyways because of this hire please turn heel fully.
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Post by soxfaninnj on Nov 6, 2020 17:46:51 GMT -5
For anyone who has any doubt about the Cora hiring just look at the reaction of the players. I'm happy he's back and so are the players.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 6, 2020 17:54:25 GMT -5
Meh. We shall see. Managers come and go. Looking at the Rays pitching and the Yankees interest in Lindor somehow makes this change seem somewhat insignificant. (Don't forget the Jays either) Managers come and go, but they're not all equal. The Red Sox were at their best the 8 seasons they had Francona. I don't think they would have thrived as well with another manager. I don't think the 1967 Red Sox win the pennant without Dick Williams. I don't think the 1988 Red Sox win with John McNamara leading that bunch. And the 2018 Red Sox don't win 119 games with somebody else. Does that mean I think the Red Sox are instant contenders without Cora and that he's magically going to fix them? No (I know others will disagree on that), I don't. Still, I don't see this as insignificant. I also don't think Cora was hired with the thought of being fired. He'll get a lot of rope here as long as he stays scandal free. Bloom is looking to rebuild, which normally takes some time. And if he is hiring Cora, then he's looking at Cora to grow with the team as it changes over and there will be a lot of changes in player personnel. If 2018 can't happen without Cora, then what is 2019 and 84 wins? It's basically the same team, just everything went right one year, everything wrong the next. Not that I dislike Cora or think he's bad, yet a coach can only do so much.
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Post by p23w on Nov 6, 2020 18:24:07 GMT -5
Managers come and go, but they're not all equal. The Red Sox were at their best the 8 seasons they had Francona. I don't think they would have thrived as well with another manager. I don't think the 1967 Red Sox win the pennant without Dick Williams. I don't think the 1988 Red Sox win with John McNamara leading that bunch. And the 2018 Red Sox don't win 119 games with somebody else. Does that mean I think the Red Sox are instant contenders without Cora and that he's magically going to fix them? No (I know others will disagree on that), I don't. Still, I don't see this as insignificant. I also don't think Cora was hired with the thought of being fired. He'll get a lot of rope here as long as he stays scandal free. Bloom is looking to rebuild, which normally takes some time. And if he is hiring Cora, then he's looking at Cora to grow with the team as it changes over and there will be a lot of changes in player personnel. If 2018 can't happen without Cora, then what is 2019 and 84 wins? It's basically the same team, just everything went right one year, everything wrong the next. Not that I dislike Cora or think he's bad, yet a coach can only do so much. 2018 was 2013 on steroids Magical. The decline in 2019 had many factors. Cora may placate the fan base (and the city), but he is far short with talent to vault back into contention. Rebuilding is a kind term. Detroit is rebuilding with Hinch. The Red Sox are treading water in the ALE. They have few chips on the farm and it is uncertain if revenues will rebound to pre virus levels. Ergo "Meh". Probably a good PR move but does nothing to address the competitiveness of the team that will take the field and compete in our division. What this team really needs is a Mike Trout or even a Mike Piazza draft pick.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Nov 6, 2020 19:05:59 GMT -5
Managers come and go, but they're not all equal. The Red Sox were at their best the 8 seasons they had Francona. I don't think they would have thrived as well with another manager. I don't think the 1967 Red Sox win the pennant without Dick Williams. I don't think the 1988 Red Sox win with John McNamara leading that bunch. And the 2018 Red Sox don't win 119 games with somebody else. Does that mean I think the Red Sox are instant contenders without Cora and that he's magically going to fix them? No (I know others will disagree on that), I don't. Still, I don't see this as insignificant. I also don't think Cora was hired with the thought of being fired. He'll get a lot of rope here as long as he stays scandal free. Bloom is looking to rebuild, which normally takes some time. And if he is hiring Cora, then he's looking at Cora to grow with the team as it changes over and there will be a lot of changes in player personnel. If 2018 can't happen without Cora, then what is 2019 and 84 wins? It's basically the same team, just everything went right one year, everything wrong the next. Not that I dislike Cora or think he's bad, yet a coach can only do so much. The 2018 team doesn't win in the playoffs without Cora. Cora reinvented the wheel by using starters as setup guys because his bullpen was depleted in talent. The playoffs is where you get your value out of a manager and can tell a weak one from a great one. Grady Little, the opposite. The season is always about depth, injuries, and a little luck. 2018 had little of the injuries, and had depth/luck. 2019 had Eduardo Nunez playing a lot as depth until he was dumped and a injured Chris Sale/David Price.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 6, 2020 19:13:59 GMT -5
New Manager and President-elect in the same day? Yes please! I've been busy all day because we just had our cleaning guy over for the first time since COVID. I just found out this when a friend texted me with the exact same observation. Pretty thrilled. Everyone can bump up their 2021 projections for Devers and Bogaerts. Amazing parallels there.
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Post by manfred on Nov 6, 2020 20:10:54 GMT -5
That is actually moral relativism. I mean, you can say others *probably* cheat, so hiring him is ok, but that means you can’t *complain* that others cheat, because their cheating was the justification for the rehire. If someone cheats and you get the vapors, remember the “hey, everyone does it” argument. Others cheating is not the justification for the rehire. Cora being a damn good coach that the players love is the justification for the rehire. No, I mean you are justifying the hire of someone caught cheating by saying everyone does it. Not that it is the *rationale* for hiring him.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 6, 2020 23:28:14 GMT -5
No, I mean you are justifying the hire of someone caught cheating by saying everyone does it. Not that it is the *rationale* for hiring him. He was the bench coach with the Astros, was he caught cheating? He didn't do that here and that's all I need. It's not fair to see his career end prematurely because he was there along for the ride, certainly not when the Astros almost made it back to the WS with the same core. Listen, I'm not saying this to dissuade anyone from not liking him being back. I understand why one would be uncomfortable. At the same time, he gets the chance to put it behind him for good. No better guy to do it, no better franchise to do it in.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 7, 2020 0:09:09 GMT -5
If 2018 can't happen without Cora, then what is 2019 and 84 wins? It's basically the same team, just everything went right one year, everything wrong the next. Not that I dislike Cora or think he's bad, yet a coach can only do so much. 2018 was 2013 on steroids Magical. The decline in 2019 had many factors. Cora may placate the fan base (and the city), but he is far short with talent to vault back into contention. Rebuilding is a kind term. Detroit is rebuilding with Hinch. The Red Sox are treading water in the ALE. They have few chips on the farm and it is uncertain if revenues will rebound to pre virus levels. Ergo "Meh". Probably a good PR move but does nothing to address the competitiveness of the team that will take the field and compete in our division. What this team really needs is a Mike Trout or even a Mike Piazza draft pick. This is total nonsense. I'll just copy a comment I made elsewhere: Note that Eovaldi missed half the season (which is to say, 6 starts), Houck was here for a quarter of the season, and Pivetta for a sixth of a season. Now add Sale, E-Rod, and two attractive free agents.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 7, 2020 0:50:58 GMT -5
Managers come and go, but they're not all equal. The Red Sox were at their best the 8 seasons they had Francona. I don't think they would have thrived as well with another manager. I don't think the 1967 Red Sox win the pennant without Dick Williams. I don't think the 1988 Red Sox win with John McNamara leading that bunch. And the 2018 Red Sox don't win 119 games with somebody else. Does that mean I think the Red Sox are instant contenders without Cora and that he's magically going to fix them? No (I know others will disagree on that), I don't. Still, I don't see this as insignificant. I also don't think Cora was hired with the thought of being fired. He'll get a lot of rope here as long as he stays scandal free. Bloom is looking to rebuild, which normally takes some time. And if he is hiring Cora, then he's looking at Cora to grow with the team as it changes over and there will be a lot of changes in player personnel. If 2018 can't happen without Cora, then what is 2019 and 84 wins? It's basically the same team, just everything went right one year, everything wrong the next. Not that I dislike Cora or think he's bad, yet a coach can only do so much. I just don't think 2018 happens without Cora. I doubt the team would have played out of their minds the whole entire year had John Farrell stayed aboard, and I really doubt that the Red Sox would have gone 11-3 in the post-season without Cora's peddle to the metal approach. That team just gelled and played over their heads all year. Cora impacted the 2019 team, but honestly it wasn't for the good. That team was unprepared from the start of the season and it showed and they never played with any urgency, and that showed, too. Yes, everything that could have went right went right in 2018 and the opposite in 2019 as well. Don't disagree with that. I just don't think they would have played anywhere near as well without Cora. I think that a team can get a boost from a new energy when you change managers. You saw the Red Sox in 2004 under Tito. How liberated they played in 2013 under Farrell. How confident they were in 2018 under Cora. The players totally bought into the Cora koolaid that season. We all know the story of Morgan Magic in 1988 and how the Sox were a totally different team with Dick Williams cracking the whip in 1967. There can definitely be a boost in energy when there's a new manager who brings a team something they need. I know what I'm saying is really impossible to quantify, but I think it can be there at times. Well, like you said, 2019 happened and the magic was gone. Maybe his return will provide a boost from a team that had no talent, no energy, or anything last year. Like it's been said, the team has to improve their talent to even have a chance. It'll be tough to do in a division where the Rays and Yankees are great, the Blue Jays are rapidly improving, and even the Orioles aren't a pushover anymore. And the Red Sox have a lot of holes on that pitching staff to file along with question marks at 1b and holes at 2b, CF, and possibly LF or even DH if JDM's season wasn't a fluke. The days of beating Baltimore 16 of 19 and Toronto 12 of 19 are over. There aren't that many easy wins in that division anymore, but if anybody can figure out how to build the team up it's Bloom, but I think he's going to take a patient incremental approach to it, but we'll see if next year's team has any 2013 in them.
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Post by costpet on Nov 7, 2020 7:35:30 GMT -5
For some reason, during this pandemic, sports doesn’t seem as important anymore. Or is it just me?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 7, 2020 8:29:31 GMT -5
For some reason, during this pandemic, sports doesn’t seem as important anymore. Or is it just me? No, it's not just you. Between the pandemic, making the right political choice, trying to pay the bills during the pandemic, trying to stay healthy, lack of true social connections, there are so many more things to worry about. And it also doesn't help when your sports teams are coming off what felt like the golden years, which are now clearly in the rearview mirror. The Red Sox clearly stunk in 2020 and now we "hope" they are going to get much better soon. That's not the same as knowing our team is the class of the league. We've basically watched a team go from 119 wins to disintegrating before our eyes. It didn't help watching Mookie Betts winning a ring - with another team (not that we begrudge him that - we're happy for him, Dave Roberts, and Joe Kelly). It's not going to help watching Tom Brady win his 7th ring with another team that's not the Patriots. The Patriots now stink and their dynasty is clearly in the rearview mirror. Who knows when they'll fix that mess? So in 2020, the Red Sox season was over about a week or two after it started - and it took forever to start. The Patriots season is quickly over. I know they've lost some close games, but their games are not particularly compelling. I don't get excited watching Newton trying to direct that 4th quarter 2 minute warning drive - which is different from Brady (as long as somebody reminds him of how many downs he has). So the air is out of the bubble with us now having losing teams on top of all the other stuff, so it really doesn't help as a huge distraction from the other stuff going on in the world. So when you have all the other stuff going on and your teams basically stink, sports can lose its resonance. The thought of me caring so much about an election is laughable when I think of how addicted I've been to the Red Sox all of my life. But here we are.
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