SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
2021 Manager Search (Cora Returns)
|
Post by alexcorahomevideo on Nov 7, 2020 9:14:01 GMT -5
For some reason, during this pandemic, sports doesn’t seem as important anymore. Or is it just me? Its definitely taken a backseat to ousting a tyrannical dictator wanna be and the coronavirus but I've learned it's a necessity to have around as a distraction. There's only so much CNN we can watch during the day.
|
|
|
Post by chrisfromnc on Nov 7, 2020 9:24:22 GMT -5
For some reason, during this pandemic, sports doesn’t seem as important anymore. Or is it just me? Its definitely taken a backseat to ousting a tyrannical dictator wanna be and the coronavirus but I've learned it's a necessity to have around as a distraction. There's only so much CNN we can watch during the day. I’m wondering when I will stop being irritated by people on this message board who continually put political stuff in a baseball thread despite be asked nicely, and sometimes firmly, by the moderators to stop. It’s not today.
|
|
|
Post by vermontsox1 on Nov 7, 2020 9:37:43 GMT -5
Let's stay on topic. Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 7, 2020 10:05:45 GMT -5
There are a lot of differing opinions on this board as there are in the country. Those are strong enough that they would easily derail the discussions in most of the threads. None of us want that to become the focus. It would make those threads unreadable and subvert the aim of the site. Please keep that in mind as you post.
|
|
|
Post by cba82 on Nov 7, 2020 11:48:54 GMT -5
Back to baseball...
Wouldn’t it be awkward all around if Roenicke were to slot back in as bench coach?
How important is the bench coach, really, especially now that Cora is a seasoned manager? Does he necessarily need a crusty old former manager by his side, or might he be better served by a young confidante with a fresh perspective on things? (Not that I have anyone specific in mind, because I don’t.)
|
|
|
Post by mg050369 on Nov 7, 2020 12:33:25 GMT -5
Back to baseball... Wouldn’t it be awkward all around if Roenicke were to slot back in as bench coach? How important is the bench coach, really, especially now that Cora is a seasoned manager? Does he necessarily need a crusty old former manager by his side, or might he be better served by a young confidante with a fresh perspective on things? (Not that I have anyone specific in mind, because I don’t.) I think it all comes down to how open RR is to returning. If he feels wronged by the organization and would feel undermined in stepping down to the bench coach role, it’s a no brainer for him to scoff at an offer. If he viewed the interim role to keep warm for Cora (seems like he said this early), is universally loved by players and his options are limited (I can’t imagine he’ll be a manager candidate anytime soon) it makes a lot of sense to bring him back.
|
|
jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,989
|
Post by jimoh on Nov 7, 2020 14:25:59 GMT -5
I'm so relieved on this Saturday to know that we will have a good manager in charge next year.
|
|
|
Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Nov 7, 2020 16:04:37 GMT -5
Others cheating is not the justification for the rehire. Cora being a damn good coach that the players love is the justification for the rehire. No, I mean you are justifying the hire of someone caught cheating by saying everyone does it. Not that it is the *rationale* for hiring him. No, I'm criticizing those who want to stick their head in the sand and act like him getting caught makes him the only cheater in baseball. How can I make that easier to understand? If you *really* had a problem with cheating, you wouldn't watch pro sports. If it takes a year's suspension to get you to acknowledge cheating, you're either ignoring it or not paying much attention. You can go back and look at what I said before the hire, I wasn't super pro-Cora. I'd have been fine either way. But the virtue signaling, fake moral arguments against it are pretty lame.
|
|
|
Post by azblue on Nov 8, 2020 10:38:04 GMT -5
Hiring Alex Cora, who was called the brains behind a clearly dishonest sign stealing system operated by the Astros, causes me to be more disappointed in the integrity of the Red Sox organization than I have been at any time since Tom Yawkey was hiring a series of racist general managers and field managers who kept the Red Sox white and 15 years behind other teams in baseball in signing black and Latin talent and longer before African-American scouts and office employees were hired. The fact that major league baseball only excluded Cora for a year for his actions as a coach of the Astros and found that Cora was not involved directly in the misuse of video during Red Sox games in 2018 and 2019 should not, to me, be a green light for the Red Sox to ignore what those past actions say about Alex Cora's character. Cora never apologized or accepted full responsibility for his role in the Astros' cheating scheme. He blamed Carlos Beltran for having major responsibility. After it was announced that Cora had been re-hired as manager of the Red Sox, Cora made a very general and hardly complete apology for his actions. If Cora had openly admitted the dishonestly of his actions, that he had a major role in the cheating scheme and was not only clearly contrite but also behaving like a sincere penitent since he was fired, I might feel differently. Was he going to schools in Puerto Rico and speaking to children about being honest and the consequences to oneself and others if you are not? Did he apologize to the teams who were playing the Astros and their players and fans? Did he donate significant money to charities as an act of penance? Tell us, Alex, did you only regret getting caught or do you truly regret your actions? His situation is not analogous to someone convicted of a crime who made a statement of contrition in court, acknowledging each element of his criminal act and who then served his time after his guilty plea was accepted by the court. Alex did not admit guilt. He was fired by the Red Sox in anticipation that Cora would be "convicted" after an investigation by MLB. He was suspended by the league for a year. He is a cheater who never admitted the full nature of his guilt, who never made an apology that acknowledged in detail what he did but who has been welcomed back to the Red Sox. In a story posted on Masslive.com by Chris Cotillo on November 7, I found this part of the story interesting: “Cora’s last statement through the Red Sox -- which came shortly after the sides parted ways Jan. 14 -- did not include an apology even though Major League Baseball had already ruled that he played a key role in Houston’s cheating scheme. In the months since, Cora has disputed the characterization that he and Carlos Beltran masterminded the cheating as a “two-man show” but has generally been vague about what he did in Houston.”
Cotillo article on Alex Cora[My apology for the underlining below. I did not intend to underline this text and tried 4 different ways to remove it without success.] What evidence is there that Cora is contrite, accepted that his actions were wrong and disgusting and that he is someone who should be re-hired? Cora's so-called "apology" was: "I have had time to reflect and evaluate many things, and I recognize how fortunate I am to lead this team once again," Cora said. "Not being a part of the game of baseball, and the pain of bringing negative attention to my family and this organization was extremely difficult. I am sorry for the harm my past actions have caused and will work hard to make this organization and its fans proud." [My apology for the underlining below. I did not intend to underline this text and tried 4 different ways to remove it without success.] That is a pathetic excuse for an "apology." The "pain of bringing re was negative attention" to his family and this organization...who caused that, Alex? You should not "apologize" for the effect, you should admit exactly what you did and acknowledge that those actions were wrong. Cora now understands how fortunate he was to lead the team again...no kidding, but that is not an apology...that is relief that he did not pay a higher price for his cheating. "I am sorry for the harm my past actions have caused....: You did not say what harm to whom, Alex. Harm to you? Harm to the Astros? Harm to the fans? Harm to the teams who played the Astros? What a pathetic non-apology. He disputes the extent of his role (denying that the cheating scheme was a "two-man" plan by Cora and Carlos Beltran), makes no detailed statement of contrition, and waited until he was re-hired to make a less than half-hearted apology....I hope that, if there are any fans in the stands next April at Fenway, he is loudly booed, and not just at opening day in Boston.
|
|
|
Post by alexcorahomevideo on Nov 8, 2020 10:52:24 GMT -5
Hiring Alex Cora, who was called the brains behind a clearly dishonest sign stealing system operated by the Astros, causes me to be more disappointed in the integrity of the Red Sox organization than I have been at any time since Tom Yawkey was hiring a series of racist general managers and field managers who kept the Red Sox white and 15 years behind other teams in baseball in signing black and Latin talent and longer before African-American scouts and office employees were hired. The fact that major league baseball only excluded Cora for a year for his actions as a coach of the Astros and found that Cora was not involved directly in the misuse of video during Red Sox games in 2018 and 2019 should not, to me, be a green light for the Red Sox to ignore what those past actions say about Alex Cora's character. Cora never apologized or accepted full responsibility for his role in the Astros' cheating scheme. He blamed Carlos Beltran for having major responsibility. After it was announced that Cora had been re-hired as manager of the Red Sox, Cora made a very general and hardly complete apology for his actions. If Cora had openly admitted the dishonestly of his actions, that he had a major role in the cheating scheme and was not only clearly contrite but also behaving like a sincere penitent since he was fired, I might feel differently. Was he going to schools in Puerto Rico and speaking to children about being honest and the consequences to oneself and others if you are not? Did he apologize to the teams who were playing the Astros and their players and fans? Did he donate significant money to charities as an act of penance? Tell us, Alex, did you only regret getting caught or do you truly regret your actions? His situation is not analogous to someone convicted of a crime who made a statement of contrition in court, acknowledging each element of his criminal act and who then served his time after his guilty plea was accepted by the court. Alex did not admit guilt. He was fired by the Red Sox in anticipation that Cora would be "convicted" after an investigation by MLB. He was suspended by the league for a year. He is a cheater who never admitted the full nature of his guilt, who never made an apology that acknowledged in detail what he did but who has been welcomed back to the Red Sox. In a story posted on Masslive.com by Chris Cotillo on November 7, I found this part of the story interesting: “Cora’s last statement through the Red Sox -- which came shortly after the sides parted ways Jan. 14 -- did not include an apology even though Major League Baseball had already ruled that he played a key role in Houston’s cheating scheme. In the months since, Cora has disputed the characterization that he and Carlos Beltran masterminded the cheating as a “two-man show” but has generally been vague about what he did in Houston.” Cotillo article/a]
What evidence is there that Cora is contrite, accepted that his actions were wrong and disgusting and that he is someone who should be re-hired? Cora's so-called "apology" was:
"I have had time to reflect and evaluate many things, and I recognize how fortunate I am to lead this team once again," Cora said. "Not being a part of the game of baseball, and the pain of bringing negative attention to my family and this organization was extremely difficult. I am sorry for the harm my past actions have caused and will work hard to make this organization and its fans proud."
That is a pathetic excuse for an "apology." The "pain of bringing re was negative attention" to his family and this organization...who caused that, Alex? You should not "apologize" for the effect, you should admit exactly what you did and acknowledge that those actions were wrong. Cora now understands how fortunate he was to lead the team again...no kidding, but that is not an apology...that is relief that he did not pay a higher price for his cheating. "I am sorry for the harm my past actions have caused....: You did not say what harm to whom, Alex. Harm to you? Harm to the Astros? Harm to the fans? Harm to the teams who played the Astros? What a pathetic non-apology. He disputes the extent of his role (denying that the cheating scheme was a "two-man" plan by Cora and Carlos Beltran), makes no detailed statement of contrition, and waited until he was re-hired to make a less than half-hearted apology....I hope that, if there are any fans in the stands next April at Fenway, he is loudly booed, and not just at opening day in Boston. I'm not exactly sure what you're going for here. Are you saying that Cora being caught up in a cheating scandal in Houston where the players were mostly the masterminds is actually worse than the systematic racism at Fenway that was going on for decades? Cora is the best manager for this team. Period.
|
|
|
Post by azblue on Nov 8, 2020 10:59:12 GMT -5
No, that is what you are saying, not what I posted. I cannot help you with any reading comprehension issues that you may have.
|
|
|
Post by semperfisox on Nov 8, 2020 13:25:53 GMT -5
Hiring Cora is huge for the young Hispanic talent on this team.
|
|
|
Post by azblue on Nov 8, 2020 13:35:19 GMT -5
There were other bilingual, highly qualified candidates.
|
|
|
Post by electricityverdugo99 on Nov 8, 2020 13:44:48 GMT -5
This area is home to Bill Belichick. Cora only scratches the surface on what he's pulled in the NFL.
Baseball is filled with a shady past. To throwing games (black sox), being racist, to betting on games (Pete Rose), to steroids, to pine tar.
This is the bridge you want to jump off of? Really? This sign stealing scandal that every team has probably tried with the video replay room?
Ya I don't get it. If anything, it adds another chapter to baseball's lore. Good or bad.
|
|
radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,399
|
Post by radiohix on Nov 10, 2020 16:03:44 GMT -5
Just finished watching the Press conference and lemme tell ya: Man, it feels good seeing Cora back!
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Nov 10, 2020 18:45:16 GMT -5
The roster needs some major help. Not even Alex can solve that. Nice to see some positive news for our favorite team.
Final note for the cheating stuff. I believe society is at a watershed moment. Looking back to when i grew up, there were improvements that society needed to undertake. Those things are trying to occur, thankfully. When it comes to accountability and penalties, i am hopeful that society can improve there also. People deserve second chances when they have paid their penalty for things like this. Yes, we all want to stake the moral high ground, but that isn't always possible
I really think here, it is a baseball scandal. The players have to deal with it mostly. As fans, i think we should be able to move past if for all the people involved.
|
|
|
Post by congusgambler33 on Nov 10, 2020 21:32:06 GMT -5
We really don't know the extent of his involvement with the Astros because they are saying little about it in the media. There is a ton of speculation and to that end I am very happy to see him back with the Sox. He served the year that was his penalty and we can move on from there. He is a known quality for a manager and i am more than excited to have someone that knows most of the players in stead of a new manager that will have to learn how to deal with different personalities.
|
|
|
Post by azblue on Nov 11, 2020 9:48:27 GMT -5
Cora has convinced himself that he, upon retrospect, unwisely decided to do something that was in a "gray area." He never acknowledged that he knew what he did was wrong. Sad that he cannot admit that he set out to do something he knew was wrong and knew that would create a firestorm if found out.
One test is: "If other teams discovered what you were doing, would they be okay with it?" If Cora would not answer that question with a resounding "NO!", he has a serious character issue.
|
|
mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,795
Member is Online
|
Post by mobaz on Nov 11, 2020 9:52:51 GMT -5
Cora has convinced himself that he, upon retrospect, unwisely decided to do something that was in a "gray area." He never acknowledged that he knew what he did was wrong. Sad that he cannot admit that he set out to do something he knew was wrong and knew that would create a firestorm if found out. One test is: "If other teams discovered what you were doing, would they be okay with it?" If Cora would not answer that question with a resounding "NO!", he has a serious character issue. Doing something wrong, realizing it is wrong (or coming to a better understanding of how wrong it is), and then stopping it is a good thing.
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,941
|
Post by ericmvan on Nov 11, 2020 13:26:20 GMT -5
Two articles in today's Globe, both well worth reading. I couldn't help but note that I had the right take on this from the beginning; the bold in my quote is in the original. I am much more dissing the current Globe baseball writers (except, of course, for Alex) (edit: for missing that originally) than blowing my own horn ... this was not hard to figure out. I actually have Pete Abraham's story with the Bloom quotes on Cora right next to me. I couldn't disagree more with the interpretation that he's a goner. [Long logical breakdown of Bloom's cryptic comments which reach the following conclusion ... it's on page 2 of this thread]
If I'm Bloom, I want to hear the whole story from Cora. I want to know what happened, and why you let your guys cheat, and why you realize that was a mistake. There's no way you were going to have that conversation until there is a managerial opening, and as soon as there is one, it's a high priority. And you're not going to preview that conversation by describing it to even a good reporter, let alone one that is consistently lazy and off-mark. Now, I can see Bloom explaining that they heard the whole story from Cora and decided to move in a different direction. That would be damning. But, obviously if you're Bloom, you hope pretty badly that Cora can satisfy you with answers to the questions you need to ask, so that you can tell that to the world.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 11, 2020 13:44:16 GMT -5
You're dissing the Globe writers for reporting that Bloom had serious questions to ask Cora about what happened? Would you prefer they not mention it?
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,941
|
Post by ericmvan on Nov 11, 2020 14:42:13 GMT -5
You're dissing the Globe writers for reporting that Bloom had serious questions to ask Cora about what happened? Would you prefer they not mention it? No, I'm dissing the original take. Back on September 27th or 28th, when Bloom was asked about Cora, answered in a guarded manner, and Pete Abraham went on and on about how what he said made it clear that he had already rejected Cora as a candidate. Go back to page 2 and read the full post.
I was delighted that they reported those conversations, which I had described in detail five weeks before they happened.
My point was that I wasn't being all that smart to figure that out. Nothing in that argument is insightful ... it's just collecting the facts and seeing where they lead. Which is what good reporters are supposed to do.
(When I've actually think I'm being smart I'll let you know!)
|
|
jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,989
|
Post by jimoh on Nov 12, 2020 6:36:00 GMT -5
You're dissing the Globe writers for reporting that Bloom had serious questions to ask Cora about what happened? Would you prefer they not mention it? No, I'm dissing the original take. Back on September 27th or 28th, when Bloom was asked about Cora, answered in a guarded manner, and Pete Abraham went on and on about how what he said made it clear that he had already rejected Cora as a candidate. Go back to page 2 and read the full post.
I was delighted that they reported those conversations, which I had described in detail five weeks before they happened.
My point was that I wasn't being all that smart to figure that out. Nothing in that argument is insightful ... it's just collecting the facts and seeing where they lead. Which is what good reporters are supposed to do.
(When I've actually think I'm being smart I'll let you know!)
It was so courageous of you to say that "If I'm Bloom, I want to hear the whole story from Cora." Most of us assumed that if Bloom talked to Cora they would mainly talk about the weather and the election and their kids. Thank you for this unique insight.
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,941
|
Post by ericmvan on Nov 12, 2020 14:03:19 GMT -5
No, I'm dissing the original take. Back on September 27th or 28th, when Bloom was asked about Cora, answered in a guarded manner, and Pete Abraham went on and on about how what he said made it clear that he had already rejected Cora as a candidate. Go back to page 2 and read the full post.
I was delighted that they reported those conversations, which I had described in detail five weeks before they happened.
My point was that I wasn't being all that smart to figure that out. Nothing in that argument is insightful ... it's just collecting the facts and seeing where they lead. Which is what good reporters are supposed to do.
(When I've actually think I'm being smart I'll let you know!)
It was so courageous of you to say that "If I'm Bloom, I want to hear the whole story from Cora." Most of us assumed that if Bloom talked to Cora they would mainly talk about the weather and the election and their kids. Thank you for this unique insight.So, in what language does "nothing in that argument is insightful" mean the opposite? My underlying point is that it was blindingly obvious, so you're agreeing with me here.
Oh, and I just got the origin of your on-the-surface crazy notion that I was being courageous. I'm guessing you don't parse "If I'm person X I would ..." as an idiom for "Almost any normal person in this situation would ..." Example: "Geeze, if I'm Ben Affleck I'm not cheating on Jennifer Garner." That's not a statement differentiating "I" from normative behavior," it's differentiating Ben Affleck. Ir's not "I alone would not cheat on a beautiful movie star who was mother to my children," but "None of us would do what he did."
(I can remember other instances of your making this sort of mistake ... some people have trouble understanding idioms, especially those dealing with theory of mind.)
Now, Abraham thought that the fact that Bloom had not yet talked to Cora meant that he had no interest in doing so. He thought that he had made up his mind without talking to him (which, now that I think of it, sort of puts Abraham in the Affleck position here -- he may have been projecting his own response to the situation). My actual point was that this insight about what Bloom would have to do was missed by the Globe's lead baseball writer ... who has a long track record of getting things wrong because he either hasn't looked up facts or thought things through.
|
|
mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,795
Member is Online
|
Post by mobaz on Nov 14, 2020 10:20:44 GMT -5
Amazing insight as always from Speier on the process of reghiring Cora ($ but I could see it free since I didn't hit an article limit or something)
|
|
|