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Patriots 2021 Offseason Thread
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 27, 2021 16:16:46 GMT -5
I don't know about that, yet Jones doesn't rate that well when compared to other slot CBs.
Last two years, 534 and 530 yards allowed, 5 and 4 TDs, 60% and 65.4% completion percentage with QB ratings of 104 and 90. Those aren't close to good numbers for a slot CB.
Yet I see people questioning Jackson because he had to face Diggs twice this year. Still allowed 59% completion percentage and 66.5 QB rating.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 27, 2021 23:06:16 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the less I think the Patriots are going to trade up to grab a QB. I think if Fields or Jones falls to them at 15, great, but more likely all 5 are gone, so they might grab a coveted wide receiver like Smith or maybe they trade down to get more picks, and perhaps use some of those to trade for the QB that I think they ultimately get - Jimmy Garopolo. I can see Belichick drafting a lower rated QB that's further away, somebody with some seasoning could become the QB of the future - maybe a Trask? But the more those Jimmy G rumors become rampant the more I think Belichick will get the reunion I think he wants. And then he can focus on improving the wide receiver group and make some other improvements without having to make any major sacrifices for young QBs.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 28, 2021 5:30:37 GMT -5
I don't know about that, yet Jones doesn't rate that well when compared to other slot CBs. Last two years, 534 and 530 yards allowed, 5 and 4 TDs, 60% and 65.4% completion percentage with QB ratings of 104 and 90. Those aren't close to good numbers for a slot CB. Yet I see people questioning Jackson because he had to face Diggs twice this year. Still allowed 59% completion percentage and 66.5 QB rating. People also aren’t talking about Jones as a number 1 corner. Two completely different positions. In the slot you have a ton of traffic to contend with and no sideline to help, plus teams are starting to use the slot receiver a lot more and they are better and better. It’s a tough spot. I’m not saying Jones has been great, he’s had some difficulties, but he’s also been really good at times too. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 28, 2021 5:54:00 GMT -5
I’ll say this, I have zero clue what the Patriots will do tomorrow. Will they trade up? Maybe, but only if the cost isn’t insane and THEIR guy is there (assuming they have a guy). I seriously doubt the Patriots look and see 5 QBs they’d want in the top 10 or 15 of the draft. That just doesn’t seem like their way of evaluation. Bill won’t draft a guy just because he needs a position.
I can see a trade up for the QB they want
I can see them sitting and taking a guy at 15 QB or otherwise
I can see a trade up for a different player they want like maybe Surtan (could include Gilmore)
I can obviously see a trade back
I can see Trask at 46
I could see Jimmy restructuring and them trading a mid round pick for him (maybe 96 - SF is getting desperate - won’t pay 24m for a backup)
The possibilities are endless tomorrow, which makes it so interesting.
People are going to be so upset if they don’t draft a QB, LB, WR or Corner... that much i do know.
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 28, 2021 6:34:14 GMT -5
From reading all the noise out there; what do you think of a Gilmore for Jimmy G trade?
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Post by costpet on Apr 28, 2021 7:27:31 GMT -5
I would love that, but I doubt SF would do it.
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 28, 2021 8:16:57 GMT -5
I would love that, but I doubt SF would do it. Maybe they need a sweetener maybe not. How badly do they want to get out from under that contract? I actually think it makes more sense for them to keep JG for next season. They have a SB contending team, do you want to turn that over to a rookie or hope JG stays healthy and if he doesn't then turn to your rook. At which point hopefully JG has lasted long enough for the rook to be more seasoned. Not sure I have ever seen a SB contender turn the keys over to a rookie. It doesn't make sense yet during the hype season not much does. Saw someone predict the Pats moving up to take a WR in this draft, thought to myself "you actually get paid to come up with that?" What are the chances... |
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 28, 2021 8:49:44 GMT -5
I’d hate trading Gilmore for Jimmy G. I don’t want to trade Gilmore and Jimmy can barely stay healthy. The Max I’d want them to give is 46 and even that would annoy me depending on the contract that’s coming back. I don’t buy Jimmy as a savior and I am concerned it would cause locker room issues with the team I’d they brought him in at this point.
How is SF all of a sudden some SB contending team? They weren’t very good last year and didn’t get much better but their division did. If they are that with Jimmy, who’s 29, then why are you trading 2 firsts to trade up for his replacement? Jimmy is there for at most one more season, using 24m in cap space for a placeholder QB, that is in his Prime, or a backup is a terrible use of resources. Even if they can’t use that money this year, it rolls over in the NFL.
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Post by texs31 on Apr 28, 2021 9:00:03 GMT -5
Getting back a number of their injured players should help a bunch.
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Post by rminns10 on Apr 28, 2021 9:15:45 GMT -5
Jimmy G is pretty good when healthy, but hasnt proven he can be healthy. So betting the farm on him would be tough
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 28, 2021 9:52:22 GMT -5
I’d hate trading Gilmore for Jimmy G. I don’t want to trade Gilmore and Jimmy can barely stay healthy. The Max I’d want them to give is 46 and even that would annoy me depending on the contract that’s coming back. I don’t buy Jimmy as a savior and I am concerned it would cause locker room issues with the team I’d they brought him in at this point. How is SF all of a sudden some SB contending team? They weren’t very good last year and didn’t get much better but their division did. If they are that with Jimmy, who’s 29, then why are you trading 2 firsts to trade up for his replacement? Jimmy is there for at most one more season, using 24m in cap space for a placeholder QB, that is in his Prime, or a backup is a terrible use of resources. Even if they can’t use that money this year, it rolls over in the NFL. I'm not saying I would do it either, I prefer Cam over JG at this point but it seems like there is a good chance Gilmore is gone. He could be part of a draft day trade so I was just extrapolating the rumors surrounding both guys. In regards to the 49ers and the SB, as of right now they have the 7th best odds to win it. If JG didn't have the injury history I would bet they would be even higher. So yeah, outside of having a premier QB they have a SB contending team. They were almost there in "19" and last year was a disaster for many teams given the pandemic. So all of a sudden doesn't really apply. They are very much the same team that absolutely crushed the Patriots last year and they are very solid on both sides of the ball. One of the best D-lines in football, they can run and have weapons in the passing game. Would you turn that over to a rookie? They signed him to that deal and their best chance of winning is with a healthy, effective JG. Yes draft the QB of the future but keeping JG isn't a terrible use of resources based on the position they are in. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 28, 2021 10:25:56 GMT -5
I’d hate trading Gilmore for Jimmy G. I don’t want to trade Gilmore and Jimmy can barely stay healthy. The Max I’d want them to give is 46 and even that would annoy me depending on the contract that’s coming back. I don’t buy Jimmy as a savior and I am concerned it would cause locker room issues with the team I’d they brought him in at this point. How is SF all of a sudden some SB contending team? They weren’t very good last year and didn’t get much better but their division did. If they are that with Jimmy, who’s 29, then why are you trading 2 firsts to trade up for his replacement? Jimmy is there for at most one more season, using 24m in cap space for a placeholder QB, that is in his Prime, or a backup is a terrible use of resources. Even if they can’t use that money this year, it rolls over in the NFL. I'm not saying I would do it either, I prefer Cam over JG at this point but it seems like there is a good chance Gilmore is gone. He could be part of a draft day trade so I was just extrapolating the rumors surrounding both guys. In regards to the 49ers and the SB, as of right now they have the 7th best odds to win it. If JG didn't have the injury history I would bet they would be even higher. So yeah, outside of having a premier QB they have a SB contending team. They were almost there in "19" and last year was a disaster for many teams given the pandemic. So all of a sudden doesn't really apply. They are very much the same team that absolutely crushed the Patriots last year and they are very solid on both sides of the ball. One of the best D-lines in football, they can run and have weapons in the passing game. Would you turn that over to a rookie? They signed him to that deal and their best chance of winning is with a healthy, effective JG. Yes draft the QB of the future but keeping JG isn't a terrible use of resources based on the position they are in. If I’m trading that much to get up to 3rd in the draft to take a QB then, yea I’d be turning it over to him. Jimmy is 29, this isn’t trading up to secure your future to replace an old QB; this is trade up to replace the guy you have because you don’t believe in him. Yet you’re telling me you believe in him enough to win you a SB? I fail to see how thats logical. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 28, 2021 10:34:53 GMT -5
I don't know about that, yet Jones doesn't rate that well when compared to other slot CBs. Last two years, 534 and 530 yards allowed, 5 and 4 TDs, 60% and 65.4% completion percentage with QB ratings of 104 and 90. Those aren't close to good numbers for a slot CB. Yet I see people questioning Jackson because he had to face Diggs twice this year. Still allowed 59% completion percentage and 66.5 QB rating. People also aren’t talking about Jones as a number 1 corner. Two completely different positions. In the slot you have a ton of traffic to contend with and no sideline to help, plus teams are starting to use the slot receiver a lot more and they are better and better. It’s a tough spot. I’m not saying Jones has been great, he’s had some difficulties, but he’s also been really good at times too. Jones is one of the top paid slot CBs and hasn't been one of the top slot CB in coverage. I'm not doing a deep dive, yet a quick look shows 11 slot CBs did much better than he has the last three years. He's set to make 8 million in 2022 and I'd say he's playing to not get cut right now. In what world has Jackson not performed as a #1 CB? Unless your bar is 2019 Gilmore. There's a massive difference between #1 CB and best CB in the league. Do people forget Gilmore gave up 5 TD and a higher QB rating in 2018 or Gilmore had a higher QB rating last year? Gilmore gets beat and it's the QB and WR did a great job, Jackson gets beat and it's he got exposed. Even though most of the damage came against the NFL #1 WR and in a year we struggled to apply pressure. |
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Apr 28, 2021 10:36:03 GMT -5
I'm not saying I would do it either, I prefer Cam over JG at this point but it seems like there is a good chance Gilmore is gone. He could be part of a draft day trade so I was just extrapolating the rumors surrounding both guys. In regards to the 49ers and the SB, as of right now they have the 7th best odds to win it. If JG didn't have the injury history I would bet they would be even higher. So yeah, outside of having a premier QB they have a SB contending team. They were almost there in "19" and last year was a disaster for many teams given the pandemic. So all of a sudden doesn't really apply. They are very much the same team that absolutely crushed the Patriots last year and they are very solid on both sides of the ball. One of the best D-lines in football, they can run and have weapons in the passing game. Would you turn that over to a rookie? They signed him to that deal and their best chance of winning is with a healthy, effective JG. Yes draft the QB of the future but keeping JG isn't a terrible use of resources based on the position they are in. If I’m trading that much to get up to 3rd in the draft to take a QB then, yea I’d be turning it over to him. Jimmy is 29, this isn’t trading up to secure your future to replace an old QB; this is trade up to replace the guy you have because you don’t believe in him. Yet you’re telling me you believe in him enough to win you a SB? I fail to see how thats logical. Reports are that the 49ers were like "Any of these 5 would be fine" and they didn't have a specific single target in mind, which is pretty indicative of their lack of faith in Jimmy G. I still think if they take Lance it increases the probability Jimmy stays, and Jones decreases it. You can obviously make it to a SB with healthy Jimmy and strong, so it's a pretty good fallback plan to hold and sit him if the alternative is (say) a 4th round pick, which is where his value might have fallen to (given salary cap spend, no movement clause, and so many QB holes filled). |
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Apr 28, 2021 10:39:10 GMT -5
People also aren’t talking about Jones as a number 1 corner. Two completely different positions. In the slot you have a ton of traffic to contend with and no sideline to help, plus teams are starting to use the slot receiver a lot more and they are better and better. It’s a tough spot. I’m not saying Jones has been great, he’s had some difficulties, but he’s also been really good at times too. Jones is one of the top paid slot CBs and hasn't been one of the top slot CB in coverage. I'm not doing a deep dive, yet a quick look shows 11 slot CBs did much better than he has the last three years. He's set to make 8 million in 2022 and I'd say he's playing to not get cut right now. In what world has Jackson not performed as a #1 CB? Unless your bar is 2019 Gilmore. There's a massive difference between #1 CB and best CB in the league. Do people forget Gilmore gave up 5 TD and a higher QB rating in 2018 or Gilmore had a higher QB rating last year? Gilmore gets beat and it's the QB and WR did a great job, Jackson gets beat and it's he got exposed. Even though most of the damage came against the NFL #1 WR and in a year we struggled to apply pressure. Jackson to me is a Malcolm Butler type #1. A 1B if we're talking baseball ace terms. You can definitely win if he's your best corner, but he needs support (pass rush, safety support, strong CB on the other side). Gilmore/Revis types so completely shut down an opposing game plan that it's a different category. Obviously I don't think anyone else on the roster is like that right now, and if Bill feels like he needs that he might need to move up for his fave of Horn/Surtain. I'd skip Farley in the first; too much uncertainty without your medical people getting hands on him. If he slipped to 46 or you move up in the 2nd, go for it! |
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 28, 2021 10:51:46 GMT -5
I don’t want to get into the weeds here but what I’m looking for is the next Ty Law, Revis, Gilmore corner. Jackson hasn’t proven that yet - I wasn’t trying to knock him but I don’t consider him a lock down corner and that’s the key guy in a Belichick defense as far as I’m concerned.
And yes, Jones is starting to her expensive in comparison to others at his position which isn’t a good spot to be in if he wants to stay here if he’s not dominant.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 28, 2021 10:51:52 GMT -5
You worry about Jimmy and his health, okay. Yet when healthy he's a great QB, that just wins games. 24-8 record, 67.5% completion percentage, 98.9 career QB rating. Came darn close to winning a Superbowl. He knows our system, he's such a massive upgrade over Newton it's not even funny. Yet yeah you have limits to what you'll trade and getting Jimmy doesn't mean you don't take a young QB. The chances a rookie is better than Jimmy are slim.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 28, 2021 11:09:50 GMT -5
Jones is one of the top paid slot CBs and hasn't been one of the top slot CB in coverage. I'm not doing a deep dive, yet a quick look shows 11 slot CBs did much better than he has the last three years. He's set to make 8 million in 2022 and I'd say he's playing to not get cut right now. In what world has Jackson not performed as a #1 CB? Unless your bar is 2019 Gilmore. There's a massive difference between #1 CB and best CB in the league. Do people forget Gilmore gave up 5 TD and a higher QB rating in 2018 or Gilmore had a higher QB rating last year? Gilmore gets beat and it's the QB and WR did a great job, Jackson gets beat and it's he got exposed. Even though most of the damage came against the NFL #1 WR and in a year we struggled to apply pressure. Jackson to me is a Malcolm Butler type #1. A 1B if we're talking baseball ace terms. You can definitely win if he's your best corner, but he needs support (pass rush, safety support, strong CB on the other side). Gilmore/Revis types so completely shut down an opposing game plan that it's a different category. Obviously I don't think anyone else on the roster is like that right now, and if Bill feels like he needs that he might need to move up for his fave of Horn/Surtain. I'd skip Farley in the first; too much uncertainty without your medical people getting hands on him. If he slipped to 46 or you move up in the 2nd, go for it! I wouldn't disagree with that right now, yet let's not forget Gilmore wasn't seen as the top CB when we signed him. He just kept getting better. Jackson basically just moved into the #2 CB role last year, then was pushed into the #1 role. I think he's just starting to scratch the surface of what he can do. Maybe I'm wrong and he doesn't keep developing, yet I don't think so. Gilmore's best season was his age 29 year. Gilmore wasn't Revis, he wasn't a top CB the minute he stepped foot on the field. Jackson didn't give up a TD his first two years in the league and had the top QB rating allowed for two years straight. So I'm going to give him more than a few games before labeling him. The style he plays is shutdown CB. I think part of the issue is he fell in love with interceptions last year, versus coverage. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 28, 2021 11:54:03 GMT -5
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Apr 28, 2021 12:37:05 GMT -5
I definitely remember thinking, "$65M for HIM?" and certainly worried after those first few games but man has Gilly come through since. He definitely grew a lot. I hope Jackson can make that kind of leap, but I think expecting it is a reach given what he's done in his current role. I just think he's a bit below that. And if Gilly gets traded the strength of the defense will turn really quick. |
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Apr 28, 2021 12:57:38 GMT -5
Broncos are trading for Bridgewater! Somehow both the Patriots and one of the WFT/Bears are gonna end up with a top 5 QB, aren't they?
The league must really not feel confident about the options at QB3 thru QB5. Or folks are worried about being left out of musical chairs. This also makes it less likely that the Mond/Dills/Trask tier will have starting opportunities over the next few years.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 28, 2021 14:34:42 GMT -5
I definitely remember thinking, "$65M for HIM?" and certainly worried after those first few games but man has Gilly come through since. He definitely grew a lot. I hope Jackson can make that kind of leap, but I think expecting it is a reach given what he's done in his current role. I just think he's a bit below that. And if Gilly gets traded the strength of the defense will turn really quick. Most young players improve. He doesn't have to have a Gilmore leap into best overall CB in the game. If you trade Gilmore you're taking some young CB in the draft. You can't pay both Jackson and Gilmore. So who's better going forward? The player who will be 32 or 27 when there next contract starts? If you think it's Gilmore than you should look at trading Jackson, I just think that could look awful stupid in a few years. Like the Bills not want to Franchise Gilmore at $14 million does today. The other big thing is, Jackson is going to cost a lot less than Gilmore to resign. Bill loves to move on a year early versus a year too late. The Gilmore rumors just won't go away. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 28, 2021 15:12:34 GMT -5
Broncos traded a 6th round pick for him and Panthers are paying 7 million of his 10 million salary. With reports saying this won't stop them from taking a QB if they like one.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 29, 2021 8:01:29 GMT -5
Happy Draft Day... I have no idea what’s about to happen tonight.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 29, 2021 8:21:31 GMT -5
Happy Draft Day... I have no idea what’s about to happen tonight. I know I can't wait, although it always seems to end up less exciting than anticipated, but then again the Patriots never used free agency like this before so maybe this year will be different. Last night Dale Arnold was saying that his source, which told him Brady was going to TB, is telling them that the Pats are negotiating with Garappolo to restructure in his contract with the hopes of trading for him. Meanwhile Tom E Curran said the Pats are not going to get Garappolo right now. Maybe SF parts with him before training camp, but they don't have to deal him to the Pats now. When all is said and done, I think the 49ers will trade Garropolo to NE soon, perhaps tonight. I think they'll get a QB in a lower round. I can see them trading down and grabbing a linebacker. I can see them trading Gilmore for more picks today too. Either way, I can't wait....so much anticipation....and then the Sox pick 4th. These two drafts are must-see TV. |
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