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Chaim Bloom and the Red Sox Rebuild
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 20, 2021 5:27:59 GMT -5
Bloom was hired with a mandate to trade Mookie. That wasn’t his decision - it was made prior to him being hired. Also, not signing Mookie to that contract was correct. I could be wrong but I see Xander and Devers here a long time. Xander will be 30 if he opts out, Lindor was 27 when he signed his contract. While Bloom didn't create that situation I don't think they had to twist his arm that hard to make the trade. I remember hearing an interview with jaret carabis or whatever his name is where he was very candid about the reasons for the trade. It didn't sound like he was forced into it. I think he was on board. Again that doesn't mean that he created that situation. Yea, of course he was on board. He was hired knowing the situation. Mandate may have been the incorrect word, leading to believe it was against his will. That’s not what I meant. I meant, it’s not like he was hired and just made the decision.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 20, 2021 8:27:14 GMT -5
While Bloom didn't create that situation I don't think they had to twist his arm that hard to make the trade. I remember hearing an interview with jaret carabis or whatever his name is where he was very candid about the reasons for the trade. It didn't sound like he was forced into it. I think he was on board. Again that doesn't mean that he created that situation. Yea, of course he was on board. He was hired knowing the situation. Mandate may have been the incorrect word, leading to believe it was against his will. That’s not what I meant. I meant, it’s not like he was hired and just made the decision. Actually the Sox from reports I've read did offer Mookie $300 million and if Mookie had said yes, then Mookie would still be a Red Sox. Isn't the rumor that the Sox offered him something like $300 million over 10 years or something like that? Mookie didn't want to commit to signing prior to free agency, or at least not for something that wasn't going to exceed what Mike Trout was making. Of course, other than the first sentence of this paragraph, which I believe to be factual, the rest of the paragraph is conjecture and would lead us down the same well traveled road we have to avoid going down. I don't think it was totally a given that Mookie was not going to be a Red Sox. Mookie has said as much in the GQ article that came out awhile back. My point is that I think if Mookie would have signed for what the Sox offered, Bloom would have pivoted to find another way to get under the limit, whether it was some sort of David Price discount, a JBJ salary dump and who knows what else? I think he came to the conclusion that giving Mookie 12 years was way too long and the reported $420 million counteroffer that Mookie was seeking was way way too much, and it wasn't worth the gamble of him walking away and getting nothing for him. He also made another point that I would butcher with my interpretation regarding the stages of Mookie's contract versus the stages of where the organization was going to be from a competitive standpoint. So I will cut off my point there as to not retread the same ground. All I can say at this point is that I still don't think the Sox are at the point Bloom is striving for yet, from an organizational standpoint, despite their position in the standings. I think his vision is an organization that is toward the top of the standings and toward the top as far as farm system, quality and quantity, a place where his team doesn't seem to need every conceivable break to be atop the standings like the surprising 2021 Red Sox are, a team that is expected to win 95 games or so per year and in a down year wins about 90 and in an up year exceeds 100 all while keeping the farm system intact, over a long stretch of time - or basically what the Dodgers have been doing. Give him a few years and I think Bloom can have him there - he's working on it.
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shagworthy
Veteran
My neckbeard game is on point.
Posts: 1,505
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Post by shagworthy on Jul 20, 2021 9:04:03 GMT -5
Yea, of course he was on board. He was hired knowing the situation. Mandate may have been the incorrect word, leading to believe it was against his will. That’s not what I meant. I meant, it’s not like he was hired and just made the decision. Actually the Sox from reports I've read did offer Mookie $300 million and if Mookie had said yes, then Mookie would still be a Red Sox. Isn't the rumor that the Sox offered him something like $300 million over 10 years or something like that? Mookie didn't want to commit to signing prior to free agency, or at least not for something that wasn't going to exceed what Mike Trout was making. Of course, other than the first sentence of this paragraph, which I believe to be factual, the rest of the paragraph is conjecture and would lead us down the same well traveled road we have to avoid going down. I don't think it was totally a given that Mookie was not going to be a Red Sox. Mookie has said as much in the GQ article that came out awhile back. My point is that I think if Mookie would have signed for what the Sox offered, Bloom would have pivoted to find another way to get under the limit, whether it was some sort of David Price discount, a JBJ salary dump and who knows what else? I think he came to the conclusion that giving Mookie 12 years was way too long and the reported $420 million counteroffer that Mookie was seeking was way way too much, and it wasn't worth the gamble of him walking away and getting nothing for him. He also made another point that I would butcher with my interpretation regarding the stages of Mookie's contract versus the stages of where the organization was going to be from a competitive standpoint. So I will cut off my point there as to not retread the same ground. All I can say at this point is that I still don't think the Sox are at the point Bloom is striving for yet, from an organizational standpoint, despite their position in the standings. I think his vision is an organization that is toward the top of the standings and toward the top as far as farm system, quality and quantity, a place where his team doesn't seem to need every conceivable break to be atop the standings like the surprising 2021 Red Sox are, a team that is expected to win 95 games or so per year and in a down year wins about 90 and in an up year exceeds 100 all while keeping the farm system intact, over a long stretch of time - or basically what the Dodgers have been doing. Give him a few years and I think Bloom can have him there - he's working on it. I think Mookie had every intention on going to Free Agency and getting top dollar, and then the pandemic hit, and changed his calculus. In my opinion the Sox became dead to Mookie circa 2016 when they played arbitration games with him and from that point on he was intent on plying his wares elsewhere. What surprised me was that prior to 2018 if you would have asked me who would be the first out the door in Free Agency I would have said Xander because of his agent. That extension really surprised me. There was a pretty good interview in The Athletic of Chaim and his plans for the deadline where Bloom did his best Belichick impression but it was still instructive of the philosophy he's working with. I feel we are in competent hands, and I'm rather liking having a front office who keeps things close to the vest after years of info leaking like a sieve into the press during prior administrations.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jul 20, 2021 9:24:03 GMT -5
It is the fact that X went against his agents typical strategy and pushed for that extension that makes me believe he will do the same thing again. Which is to sign a team friendly deal and stay in Boston. If that is the case then where does he end up playing once Mayer comes up and the infield looks like Raffy, MM , Yorke and Casas, LF?
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 20, 2021 9:41:36 GMT -5
It is the fact that X went against his agents typical strategy and pushed for that extension that makes me believe he will do the same thing again. Which is to sign a team friendly deal and stay in Boston. If that is the case then where does he end up playing once Mayer comes up and the infield looks like Raffy, MM , Yorke and Casas, LF? I think he'd make a great LF'er
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Post by incandenza on Jul 20, 2021 9:47:51 GMT -5
One thing we can infer from Bloom's MO is that he probably won't go big on a DH-only guy like JDM. He likes him some positional versatility, and I would expect that after JDM is gone we'll see positional players cycling through the DH spot. So I wonder if we might see, if the infield plays out the way you describe, Xander, Devers, and Casas shifting in and out of DH, with Xander or Devers moving over to 1B when Casas is the DH. That would be predicated on Xander being willing and able to play 3B/1B, and I honestly don't know if that's the case.
Also in this scenario the middle infield would still need some medium-term solutions since neither Yorke nor Mayer are likely to show up before 2025.
(And then also, though, I think Bogaerts is most likely leaving after 2022. Some team with a hole at 3B will value him more than the Red Sox, and barring his willingness to take a *really* team-friendly deal I don't think he fits very well for Boston over the long-term. But hopefully I'm wrong...)
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Post by voiceofreason on Jul 20, 2021 9:56:10 GMT -5
One thing we can infer from Bloom's MO is that he probably won't go big on a DH-only guy like JDM. He likes him some positional versatility, and I would expect that after JDM is gone we'll see positional players cycling through the DH spot. So I wonder if we might see, if the infield plays out the way you describe, Xander, Devers, and Casas shifting in and out of DH, with Xander or Devers moving over to 1B when Casas is the DH. That would be predicated on Xander being willing and able to play 3B/1B, and I honestly don't know if that's the case. Also in this scenario the middle infield would still need some medium-term solutions since neither Yorke nor Mayer are likely to show up before 2025. (And then also, though, I think Bogaerts is most likely leaving after 2022. Some team with a hole at 3B will value him more than the Red Sox, and barring his willingness to take a *really* team-friendly deal I don't think he fits very well for Boston over the long-term. But hopefully I'm wrong...) Which leads me to something I mentioned on a different thread. Why the heck hasn't JDM been working at first for the past 3 years? How can it be that he isn't a good enough athlete, ball player to not be capable? Just beyond me!! Come on man!!
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Post by julyanmorley on Jul 20, 2021 10:26:49 GMT -5
One thing we can infer from Bloom's MO is that he probably won't go big on a DH-only guy like JDM. I think in recent history very few teams have been interested in paying for DH-only types, which would make me want to burn some calories in order to gain access to the market in order to snatch up some underpriced WAR. Along the same lines, I think it would hurt the Red Sox a little bit every year if the NL adopted the DH.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 20, 2021 10:40:39 GMT -5
If that is the case then where does he end up playing once Mayer comes up and the infield looks like Raffy, MM , Yorke and Casas, LF? Let's let that happen first and worry about that problem when they have it. Non-zero chance that question gets put into the same bin as questions about how they'll find room for all of Devers, Chavis, and Travis; Devers, Moncada, Guerra, Dubon, and Longhi; Cecchini, Coyle, Marrero, Bogaerts, and Pedroia; etc.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 20, 2021 11:01:12 GMT -5
One thing we can infer from Bloom's MO is that he probably won't go big on a DH-only guy like JDM. I think in recent history very few teams have been interested in paying for DH-only types, which would make me want to burn some calories in order to gain access to the market in order to snatch up some underpriced WAR. Along the same lines, I think it would hurt the Red Sox a little bit every year if the NL adopted the DH. The Red Sox have had huge lineup advantages with Ortiz and JDM being so much better than their counterparts on other teams. I agree with the sentiment that Bloom wants no part of these players, which are actually few and far between but create a market inefficiency and advantage when you can find one. I hope he doesn’t shut off from having that option.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,778
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Post by mobaz on Jul 20, 2021 14:33:33 GMT -5
I think in recent history very few teams have been interested in paying for DH-only types, which would make me want to burn some calories in order to gain access to the market in order to snatch up some underpriced WAR. Along the same lines, I think it would hurt the Red Sox a little bit every year if the NL adopted the DH. The Red Sox have had huge lineup advantages with Ortiz and JDM being so much better than their counterparts on other teams. I agree with the sentiment that Bloom wants no part of these players, which are actually few and far between but create a market inefficiency and advantage when you can find one. I hope he doesn’t shut off from having that option. Came to say the same thing. It's a waste of a limited lineup (can only play 9) to NOT take the opportunity to use one slot on the best hitter possible with defense be damned. Think of how much worse this team would be with a rotating rest day at the position and $20M spent on, say Blackman/Hosmer/Donaldson/Longoria/Crawford ($20M doesn't buy as much as you'd think in the FA market). These guys wouldn't move the needle defensively anywhere important and the dropoff offensively would shorten the lineup really quickly.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,312
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Post by radiohix on Jul 20, 2021 15:05:29 GMT -5
One thing we can infer from Bloom's MO is that he probably won't go big on a DH-only guy like JDM. He likes him some positional versatility, and I would expect that after JDM is gone we'll see positional players cycling through the DH spot. So I wonder if we might see, if the infield plays out the way you describe, Xander, Devers, and Casas shifting in and out of DH, with Xander or Devers moving over to 1B when Casas is the DH. That would be predicated on Xander being willing and able to play 3B/1B, and I honestly don't know if that's the case. Also in this scenario the middle infield would still need some medium-term solutions since neither Yorke nor Mayer are likely to show up before 2025.(And then also, though, I think Bogaerts is most likely leaving after 2022. Some team with a hole at 3B will value him more than the Red Sox, and barring his willingness to take a *really* team-friendly deal I don't think he fits very well for Boston over the long-term. But hopefully I'm wrong...) Nick Yorke will finish next year in Portland, I have zero doubts about that...The approach, the hit tool, the make up (in a recent interview for the Salem Red Sox YouTube channel, his manager Luke Montz mentioned him as one of the leaders "despite his Young age" of the team) make me confident about my not so bold prediction...The kid is a baseball rat: Mom's 4 time All-American and softball national champion at Fresno State, dad's manager in baseball equipment store, family has a batting cage in the backyard... Barring injuries, I can totally see him make his MLB debut in 2023.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 20, 2021 15:42:45 GMT -5
We're halfway through July and Yorke is still in Salem. I expect him to finish the year in Greenville. But there is almost zero chance he gets to Portland this year. There is no reason to do that.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,312
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Post by radiohix on Jul 20, 2021 16:03:08 GMT -5
I said he'll finish 2022 season in Portland not this year Joel 😀
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Post by Guidas on Jul 20, 2021 16:21:08 GMT -5
If that is the case then where does he end up playing once Mayer comes up and the infield looks like Raffy, MM , Yorke and Casas, LF? Let's let that happen first and worry about that problem when they have it. Non-zero chance that question gets put into the same bin as questions about how they'll find room for all of Devers, Chavis, and Travis; Devers, Moncada, Guerra, Dubon, and Longhi; Cecchini, Coyle, Marrero, Bogaerts, and Pedroia; etc. Cecchini is the one guy of the "didn't make its" in that list that I would not have predicted. Seemed like all through the system and even with his first taste of MLB he was going to be a starter somewhere with the "singles-doubles hitter" profile, if not an MLB average player. Sadly, he's a human object lesson of how good a player can be in AA and AAA and how steep that adjustment is to the bigs. In 2014 he was .263/.341/.371 in 469 PAs in AAA before his jump to MLB. With those 36 MLB PAs in Sept .258/.361/.452 but he completely faceplanted in 2015 in AAA going .213/.286/.296 despite having almost identical BB and K rates to the previous year. No doubt some batted ball bad luck (he rebounded the next year in AAA with a trade but never had a cup of coffee in the Bigs again. And a lot of people here had him penciled in as an everyday player, including me. Ditto for Lars Anderson after his AA season. Shows how fickle all this can be and why projecting guys even a year or two ahead is often like playing the scratch-off lottery.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jul 20, 2021 16:25:43 GMT -5
If that is the case then where does he end up playing once Mayer comes up and the infield looks like Raffy, MM , Yorke and Casas, LF? Let's let that happen first and worry about that problem when they have it. Non-zero chance that question gets put into the same bin as questions about how they'll find room for all of Devers, Chavis, and Travis; Devers, Moncada, Guerra, Dubon, and Longhi; Cecchini, Coyle, Marrero, Bogaerts, and Pedroia; etc. NO!!
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 20, 2021 16:25:52 GMT -5
I said he'll finish 2022 season in Portland not this year Joel 😀 DOH! My bad. I agree, then, carry on. I read next year as this year.
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Post by xboggey2 on Jul 21, 2021 16:52:09 GMT -5
I think this upcoming offseason will be Chaims first chance to show what he can do with a big market teams money and he has a ton of options. Most contracts are coming off the books and with a great FA class and many extension eligible players he could really cement this team as a contender. At the moment what do you think he will or should do? Personally I think he should focus on resigning/ extending players next year by resigning Ottavino and maybe bringing back ERod on a relatively cheap contract and try to extend Xander and Raffy. If not I’d maybe try to bring in on the pitchers in the FA class because it’s stacked next year. Maybe a Scherzer or Thor are potential options and would really bolster the staff and would make a dominant rotation of Sale, FA, Eovaldi, Houck/ Pivetta/Whitlock
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Post by fanofredsox on Jul 21, 2021 19:21:34 GMT -5
I think this upcoming offseason will be Chaims first chance to show what he can do with a big market teams money and he has a ton of options. Most contracts are coming off the books and with a great FA class and many extension eligible players he could really cement this team as a contender. At the moment what do you think he will or should do? Personally I think he should focus on resigning/ extending players next year by resigning Ottavino and maybe bringing back ERod on a relatively cheap contract and try to extend Xander and Raffy. If not I’d maybe try to bring in on the pitchers in the FA class because it’s stacked next year. Maybe a Scherzer or Thor are potential options and would really bolster the staff and would make a dominant rotation of Sale, FA, Eovaldi, Houck/ Pivetta/Whitlock I think his priorities should be in order; 1) Pick up the team option on Vazquez for ‘22 & sign him to a 2 year extension for ‘23 & ‘24 ($20m) 2) Extend J.D. for ‘23 & ‘24 ($40m) 3) Sign E. Rod 3 years $36m 4) Work on a Denver’s extension
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 21, 2021 19:57:07 GMT -5
I think this upcoming offseason will be Chaims first chance to show what he can do with a big market teams money and he has a ton of options. Most contracts are coming off the books and with a great FA class and many extension eligible players he could really cement this team as a contender. At the moment what do you think he will or should do? Personally I think he should focus on resigning/ extending players next year by resigning Ottavino and maybe bringing back ERod on a relatively cheap contract and try to extend Xander and Raffy. If not I’d maybe try to bring in on the pitchers in the FA class because it’s stacked next year. Maybe a Scherzer or Thor are potential options and would really bolster the staff and would make a dominant rotation of Sale, FA, Eovaldi, Houck/ Pivetta/Whitlock I think his priorities should be in order; 1) Pick up the team option on Vazquez for ‘22 & sign him to a 2 year extension for ‘23 & ‘24 ($20m) 2) Extend J.D. for ‘23 & ‘24 ($40m) 3) Sign E. Rod 3 years $36m 4) Work on a Denver’s extension You really think erod is taking 3 years 36 million? I would be shocked if that's all it takes.
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Post by fanofredsox on Jul 21, 2021 20:06:43 GMT -5
I doubt he takes it, but it is what I think he’s worth. He’s making $8.3 this year, so $10m , $12m , $14m .
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Post by foreverred9 on Jul 21, 2021 20:07:29 GMT -5
I'm not sold on rushing to sign Vazquez. Definitely pick up the option, but he's been consistently bad each month which would make me want to buy some time to see if he can show that he's not impacted by the 2021 baseball. He hasn't had one of his typical hot streaks yet this year. His 2019 and 2020 seasons far exceeded his xWOBA, likely due to these streaks, but this year his wOBA is back in line with his xWOBA, which is only slightly worse than his career numbers.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 21, 2021 20:13:01 GMT -5
I doubt he takes it, but it is what I think he’s worth. He’s making $8.3 this year, so $10m , $12m , $14m . Okay but that's from arbitration not the open market. I think He's going to get at least 4 years 70 million and that might be conservative.
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Post by fanofredsox on Jul 21, 2021 20:14:44 GMT -5
I agree, I could see a team going 6yrs $100m for ages 29 - 34
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 21, 2021 20:17:10 GMT -5
I agree, I could see a team going 6yrs $100m Then I'm very confused as to why you would say to sign erod to 3 years 36 million deal if it's not even half of what you think he could get...?
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