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Celtics 2021 Offseason
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Post by texs31 on May 26, 2021 8:29:06 GMT -5
Figured I'd start this since a) we're all ready to move on and b) there has been some discussion in the season thread.
The problem with trading Kemba is that he's too good to just dump but few teams are going to want to pay the price (players and picks) for that contract and knee combination. The 2 players that were mentioned (Wall and Westbrook) would add some 13M to an already large tax bill.
I think your plausible scenarios are trading him for a similarly priced AND flawed player that might fit better (first one that came to mind was Kevin Love) or use him as Salary Filler in what would have to be a pretty big overpay (taking on additional bad salary and/or giving up a big package of assets).
I DO agree that how they handle him is a pretty big item this offseason. I'd also add Marcus Smart to that list. I still like Marcus Smart for what he is (not as much for what he THINKS he is). His looming free agency, however, is something that needs to be addressed. Is he looking for equal or greater money in a deal? Can you stomach that?
Other items to address
- Tristan Thompson is not a fit here. I avoided discussing him much of the season bc I thought that the playoffs might be a time where his physicality would pay off but, at best, this team isn't good enough for it to matter.
- Robert Williams III extension - he's eligible and a healthy RWIII is perfect for this team. But how much does he want and how much is Boston willing to pay given his constant (albeit often unrelated) injury problems.
- Fournier contract. Will they extend him or will they have lost 1/2 of the "biggest TPE in history" for little/no return?
- Youth. With another "decent" player likely attainable with the #16 pick, is Danny going to continue to add young players to an already young roster? Or does he move it? What about other young players on the roster? I think most/all can agree that they need a more experienced bench but who goes? Nesmith seems like a keeper. Langford needs a healthy stretch of consistent play time but can he get it here? GWill and others? They are likely in the "not getting much for them and they aren't really costing you much in the scheme of things" category.
Items that will be discussed but probably shouldn't (It just depends on your motivation - if you want lively debate, sure? If you're discussing it bc you think there is a chance it could happen??? I saw a post yesterday about a 2-headed snake. Sure, it's not impossible to see one but how much time are you going to spend looking?)
- Firing Brad. It's just SO rare for a team to get rid of a coach with his history of success, 1 year of struggles and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, a recent contract extension. I can sit here and try to convince you that you don't fire a coach for need of a jolt (not using that term as a knock on that specific post as it's been said/alluded to many times) but really it just comes down to that.
- Splitting up Jaylen/Jason. Even if a good reason is landed upon, can anyone REALLY come up with a trade that makes sense? I think we can all agree that moving 1 for younger assets is NOT what this team needs. Getting a better player (think it would be tough to find someone that is both available and worth giving up something IN ADDITION to one of them). Better fit? Maybe (I'm squinting) but really not sure that player both exists and is available.
Either of these would be drastic moves (duh) and I just wonder if Danny would do that coming off a "whatever could go wrong, did" type season.
Anyway, just my thoughts as we head to the offseason (which will be coming in no more than 3 games, in all likelihood).
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 26, 2021 10:31:30 GMT -5
The first question I have is what type of team do you want to be? Given last off-season that needs to be answered first, because it was like Danny doesn't know.
You want to be a defensive team or a score first team? A team that plays team ball or an iso team?
For me it's all about D and team play.
I'd love a Walker for Ball trade if that could happen. I'd love to trade Thompson for Graham, then resign Theis. Yet that only works with a defensive team that plays team ball. If you just want to be an iso team, you need to go a different route.
This is a team that had one assist through 15 minutes of the last game. Then Smart decides he wants to play PG and you start getting some easy buckets and good looks. If you want to play that way, go look at guys like Bradley Beal. People talk about changing the system, yet 2018 versus 2021 is a totally different system. You need to get back to more of a 2018 system, yet you can't do that with Walker.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 26, 2021 19:41:46 GMT -5
John Wall for Kemba and Thompson is my target, lock it down. Maybe spare parts on either side but that’s the foundation. He represents more of a pure PG imo. Maybe you can try for Russ. Maybe Kevin Love and you can run the offense through him like he’s Horford.
Brad isn’t getting fired. Some people want it, some people don’t. I personally don’t blame him for this year. But it’s just not happening. Woj says firing him is not even on the table. I don’t think they’re going to make hasty decisions in such a crazy year
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Post by texs31 on May 27, 2021 6:56:45 GMT -5
Salary wise, that works for us but the question is why would Houston do that (even with spare parts added)? You're not really saving them money. You're giving them the least healthy player (Kemba) and another guy who has as little value to them as he does to us. Is
I'm, admittedly, the wrong guy to concoct trades but it just seems like you'd need to incentivize them more (young player or 1st rounder). That's where I get into the "is he so bad that you have to give up something good just to dump him" part?
EDIT - So I just realized it DOES save Houston money. In year 2 of the deal, TT is no longer on the books so, assuming both players pick up their options (or refuse their ETO's - whatever the difference practically, it works the same against the cap), Wall's contract is about 10M more expensive than Walker's.
So maybe that's enough of an incentive to not need "sweetner's".
Of course, that's 10 additional M on to the C's books. So the question is whether Wall is 10M better than Walker.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 27, 2021 7:46:04 GMT -5
Salary wise, that works for us but the question is why would Houston do that (even with spare parts added)? You're not really saving them money. You're giving them the least healthy player (Kemba) and another guy who has as little value to them as he does to us. Is I'm, admittedly, the wrong guy to concoct trades but it just seems like you'd need to incentivize them more (young player or 1st rounder). That's where I get into the "is he so bad that you have to give up something good just to dump him" part? EDIT - So I just realized it DOES save Houston money. In year 2 of the deal, TT is no longer on the books so, assuming both players pick up their options (or refuse their ETO's - whatever the difference practically, it works the same against the cap), Wall's contract is about 10M more expensive than Walker's. So maybe that's enough of an incentive to not need "sweetner's". Of course, that's 10 additional M on to the C's books. So the question is whether Wall is 10M better than Walker. And that question on if Wall is 10 M better than Walker is debatable, but the idea is that he improves after getting a Post-injury season under his belt. I think Walker’s situation may be a little more chronic but idk I’m not a doctor |
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Post by texs31 on May 27, 2021 8:35:54 GMT -5
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 27, 2021 8:39:41 GMT -5
Also just to add on I think Kemba is probably a better guy to have on a rebuilding, young team than John Wall. Not an indictment on John Wall or his character but Kemba is an exceptional person who knows how to bring the right kind of energy on a terrible team. There’s a reason he’s beloved in Charlotte. Thompson was also said to be a good mentor to TimeLord. I think that side of things could be extra valuable to the rockets
Wouldn’t shock me if they move Smart this offseason. I obvs love him and don’t want to see it but I could see that being the “statement” move they make
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Post by texs31 on May 27, 2021 9:11:18 GMT -5
FWIW, Karalis has both Smart and RWIII as "Keepers unless moving them leads to a huge upgrade".
BTW - I'm close to being convinced that Danny is just going to have spent the last several years exchanging the "non draft pick" pieces and keep Tatum/Brown/Smart/RWIII/Langford/GWill/Nesmith/Pritchard group.
We may have gone from "Danny wants to crush everyone in a trade" to "Danny doesn't want to trade a player he once thought highly of, only to see him thrive somewhere else".
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ianrs
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Post by ianrs on May 27, 2021 10:05:33 GMT -5
I think the main move you pursue is freeing up the Kemba money to eventually try to get a 3rd star to keep Tatum through his prime.
My idea is Kemba/TT/pick(s) to desperate, shellacked Clippers (prob eliminated by Dallas) for Pat Bev(expiring)/Zubac/Kennard
Cut the roster dead weight (Carsen/Tacko at the least, maybe Grant Williams and Tremont as well).
I honestly don't love resigning Fournier unless it's reasonable money, but what the hell else do you do now that you used a bunch of the TPE...
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 27, 2021 13:25:33 GMT -5
Is John Wall healthier than Kemba Walker? He missed a ton of games last year, played less than Walker did. Bunch of missed games in different groups, so it wasn't just one injury. I can certainly see it making sense if you believe he gets healthier, yet he had a ton of off time with that injury already. I don't know because I haven't seen him play since his Wizard days. I wouldn't rule it out, yet I would certainly try to find younger options if you could. I'm really torn on Wall, yet the idea of Wall and Cousins does make sense. I mentioned Cousins because Wall makes that much more likely and Cousins would be a top target for me this offseason. Robert Williams and Cousins would be my dream center pairing. Yet that 47 million for Wall in two years could result in a massive tax bill. So you need to be damn sure that Wall is going to be healthy.
Do you resign Fournier? Do you keep Smart? What's a Robert Williams extension look like? Williams, Tatum, Brown, Fournier and Wall, with Smart and Cousins on the bench could be darn good in theory. Add in growth for Nesmith, Pritchard and Langford. Get an athletic defensive PF and a defensive third center.
First I'd see what you can get for Walker and a couple of first round picks. With Ball being my #1 target. Locking in a younger player like Ball for around 20 million long-term would go a long way towards helping our tax issues. He can grow with Tatum and Brown. I truly believe he's just stretching the surface of true talent. Rumors say the team will explore sign and trades. That team has two other first round PGs on the roster, so it could make sense. I will apologize in advance, because Ball is going to be my Turner this year. I won't be able to let it go, it just makes too much sense. He's the glue guy I think can make Tatum and Brown work together better. Given the way the Celtics play and the way the NBA is going his ability to shoot three's is huge compared to Wall and Westbrook. You also don't worry about him taking two many shots. His size, D and passing is just perfect for my ideal Celtics team based on team ball and D. He's like a Rondo/Rubio that can shoot.
The big issue is really there's only one Ball available. I don't see the Cavs yet trading one of their PGs, though I have seen some Sexton trade talk. So you get into players like Graham and I really like him, yet there's a huge difference in overall talent. He's more of a great backup PG than guy that can win you a championship. Yet his love of three's will fit right in. He's a much better defender and passer than Walker is, yet not nearly the same overall scorer.
I don't envy Danny Ainge this offseason. He has a bunch of options, yet also some really tough choices to make. It's time to build the team around Tatum and Brown for the future. I also have to mention the idea of going after Rozier. Last year of his deal, not the perfect fit next to Ball. Smart/Thompson for Rozier or something like that could make sense. Maybe three team deal. You can than look at dumping Walker to save money and not have our luxury tax bill explode.
The Grizz have basically dumped playing Clarke instead using Tillman. He's a guy I'd target as the perfect backup PF for this team.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 27, 2021 13:50:36 GMT -5
The only time I saw Clarke play this season was when he took his first 3 attempt of the year and it was the ugliest re-worked shot I’ve ever seen. I was like “OH NOOOO MEMPHIS WHAT IZ U DOIN BB??”
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ianrs
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Post by ianrs on May 27, 2021 17:46:59 GMT -5
Personally I don't want any piece of John Wall, that guy really can't stay healthy and can't shoot as well as Kemba at all, Kemba is much better even with his flaws IMO.
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ianrs
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Post by ianrs on May 28, 2021 9:41:03 GMT -5
Another guy I would love to target and is a perfect fit on our team: KAT. He's a shooting, playmaking big that would add an insane dynamism to our offense that we just don't have right now. You could argue that the defense would suffer, but would it really take the offense up a notch. The issue is you would have to give up Robert Williams, but maybe you risk it. I'm really not sure and its hard to say since RWIII could be a really good fit with the Jays *if* he stays healthy. I cooked up a crazy 3 team deal, do you do something like this? Essentially it punts on all the young guys and picks to secure a 3rd star in KAT. Its basically about how much you believe in RWIII/Romeo/Nesmith, or if you want the more "sure thing" in KAT, of course the worst outcome being this just destroys the team and blows up in your face and JT and JB just want out after all the constant change. tradenba.com/trades/sNrJjvBTZOf course you can also just do the smaller version of this where you flip Kemba (and possibly TT as well) to the Clips for some combo of Kennard/Bev/Zubac. ![]() ![]() |
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Post by dangermike on May 28, 2021 11:53:39 GMT -5
Another guy I would love to target and is a perfect fit on our team: KAT. He's a shooting, playmaking big that would add an insane dynamism to our offense that we just don't have right now. You could argue that the defense would suffer, but would it really The issue is you would have to give up Robert Williams, but maybe you risk it. I'm really not sure and its hard to say since RWIII could be a really good fit with the Jays *if* he stays healthy. I cooked up a crazy 3 team deal, do you do something like this? Essentially it punts on all the young guys and picks to secure a 3rd star in KAT. Its basically about how much you believe in RWIII/Romeo/Nesmith, or if you want the more "sure thing" in KAT, of course the worst outcome being this just destroys the team and blows up in your face and JT and JB just want out after all the constant change. tradenba.com/trades/sNrJjvBTZOf course you can also just do the smaller version of this where you flip Kemba (and possibly TT as well) to the Clips for some combo of Kennard/Bev/Zubac. ![]() ![]() KAT has been so inconsistent in terms of top tier effort. giving up rob for a dude like that is a complete non starter for me. we need high effort movers on this team. dealing kemba, smart, tt needs to happen to clear money to bring a mover in. obviously we arent getting steph but thats what we need - relentless pressure on the opposition when they're on defense, which will hopefully yield better results than standing around EDIT- just looked at the trade and im sooooooo out. giving up langford and nesmith and williams and 3 firsts for 1 player that isnt on a all nba team can NOT happen |
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Post by jmei on May 28, 2021 12:17:18 GMT -5
No way the Timberwolves trade KAT for a pu-pu platter like that. They aren’t looking to move him at all, and if they do, they’d want a blue-chip piece coming back. Rob Williams is not a good enough centerpiece.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 28, 2021 12:39:20 GMT -5
Another guy I would love to target and is a perfect fit on our team: KAT. He's a shooting, playmaking big that would add an insane dynamism to our offense that we just don't have right now. You could argue that the defense would suffer, but would it really The issue is you would have to give up Robert Williams, but maybe you risk it. I'm really not sure and its hard to say since RWIII could be a really good fit with the Jays *if* he stays healthy. I cooked up a crazy 3 team deal, do you do something like this? Essentially it punts on all the young guys and picks to secure a 3rd star in KAT. Its basically about how much you believe in RWIII/Romeo/Nesmith, or if you want the more "sure thing" in KAT, of course the worst outcome being this just destroys the team and blows up in your face and JT and JB just want out after all the constant change. tradenba.com/trades/sNrJjvBTZOf course you can also just do the smaller version of this where you flip Kemba (and possibly TT as well) to the Clips for some combo of Kennard/Bev/Zubac. ![]() ![]() Did you watch that recent Minnesota game? I don't know how you could watch that game and then come up with that trade package. His effort level is so bad. He's more nimble for his size than truly athletic and worst yet when the Celtics had no one to guard him he's taking jumpers and trying to create things off the dribble instead of just attacking scrubs in the post. I want to see a guy like him go at Kornet like Embiid did. KAT is just like Kevin Love, he's most likely a worst defender than Thompson. Nevermind for all the bitching about Robert Williams health, he's played in more games than KAT has the last two years. You have us resigning Fournier, then trading for Kennard. How does that work? If you're talking packages like that you need a better level of player. I don't think I do that for Bradley Beal nevermind KAT. I'd give up Walker and some first round picks. |
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ianrs
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Post by ianrs on May 28, 2021 14:13:19 GMT -5
No way the Timberwolves trade KAT for a pu-pu platter like that. They aren’t looking to move him at all, and if they do, they’d want a blue-chip piece coming back. Rob Williams is not a good enough centerpiece. Yeah you're right, I was dreaming. Basically I considered it similar to the Harden deal, but I guess KAT would have to force his way out so it's not really comparable. I don't really understand the responses that wouldn't give up Timelord for KAT, are you serious? Lol. Wishful thinking is a heck of a drug. I just... Don't know how you get a star otherwise keeping JT and JB. I guess Brad Beal is the other one who theoretically could be had but why wouldn't the Wiz just run it back, plus really nobody wants the pu-pu platter. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 28, 2021 15:21:34 GMT -5
No way the Timberwolves trade KAT for a pu-pu platter like that. They aren’t looking to move him at all, and if they do, they’d want a blue-chip piece coming back. Rob Williams is not a good enough centerpiece. Yeah you're right, I was dreaming. Basically I considered it similar to the Harden deal, but I guess KAT would have to force his way out so it's not really comparable. I don't really understand the responses that wouldn't give up Timelord for KAT, are you serious? Lol. Wishful thinking is a heck of a drug. I just... Don't know how you get a star otherwise keeping JT and JB. I guess Brad Beal is the other one who theoretically could be had but why wouldn't the Wiz just run it back, plus really nobody wants the pu-pu platter. Who said they wouldn't trade Robert Williams for KAT? Your trade idea was Walker, Thompson, Grant, Robert, Nesmith, Langford and three first round picks. I'd trade Robert Williams for KAT if that was possible, which it isn't. I'd hate doing it, as Robert Williams is everything KAT isn't and exactly what we need, yet I would certainly do that. |
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Post by voiceofreason on May 29, 2021 8:47:52 GMT -5
The first question I have is what type of team do you want to be? Given last off-season that needs to be answered first, because it was like Danny doesn't know. You want to be a defensive team or a score first team? A team that plays team ball or an iso team? For me it's all about D and team play. I'd love a Walker for Ball trade if that could happen. I'd love to trade Thompson for Graham, then resign Theis. Yet that only works with a defensive team that plays team ball. If you just want to be an iso team, you need to go a different route. This is a team that had one assist through 15 minutes of the last game. Then Smart decides he wants to play PG and you start getting some easy buckets and good looks. If you want to play that way, go look at guys like Bradley Beal. People talk about changing the system, yet 2018 versus 2021 is a totally different system. You need to get back to more of a 2018 system, yet you can't do that with Walker. I think this team will get back to exactly that next year. "D and team play" has been the hallmark of Stevens teams since he got here. Covid, injuries, roster churning and very little practice time has affected the product on the court and it has produced a down year. Oh well shizz happens, I for one am very optimistic that the C's will right the ship next year. Walker is an issue for sure with his knee problems but who wants to take that problem on w.o. trading back to the C's a player with his own problems? Maybe Kemba becomes the sixth man I don't know, that might be his best role. His contract is an issue that I don't see going away. I am more concerned with the center position as TT is not the answer and R Williams can't be counted on to stay healthy. Can they move TT? Danny has a challenging offseason in front of him that is for sure, maybe the most challenging he has faced yet. Moves need to be made but I still love the core. Keep building around the J's and hope for some luck because they have had nothing but bad luck for a while now when it comes to adding that 3rd piece. Hayward, Kyrie, Kemba..... all for not. Can Nesmith be that guy who becomes a star, he very well could be. He can shoot, he can take it to the hole and he is a dog on D. If Langford can stay healthy he is another one who can be a great asset. Then again those will be the guys GM's will be asking for in trades. Danny needs to win a trade or 2 this offseason. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 30, 2021 12:11:44 GMT -5
I agree overall, don't pull a Rockets trading Paul for Westbrook than Wall. They just kept making trades to change things up and got worse everytime while trading a bunch of picks. I'd love to move Walker, yet you don't want to be stupid either.
I thought a bench role was the way to go from day one this year, yet can Steven's accept that?
I brought up why I think they traded Theis when they had other options to get under the luxury tax. It was to stop the two big lineups and get Robert Williams more minutes. You need to be very careful constructing a roster for Steven's. Too many options and he gets way too creative, we've seen it twice now in four years. Two best playoff runs came with big injuries, which limited his options.
For me if you look at the best way to improve team ball and D, it's Walker. I admire his effort, you just can't get around his size in the playoffs. The only way it doesn't matter is if he's an elite scorer from the first half of last year. You insert Ball for Walker, you could have the most switchable team in the league. I can see Ball being the glue that bonds Tatum and Brown. I don't see any center helping with that. A player that can help those two get easy/better shots inside the offense, not just iso.
I'm trying damn hard for Ball, then moving to Rozier or you can dream about Beal a guy who could likely play PG for us the way Harden does.
At center you could call the Rockets about Christian Wood, yet again like a bunch of big he missed a ton of games. I prefer a PG and I'm dangling the 2021 and 2023 first round picks if need be. What I don't want to do is well low on Robert Williams, Nesmith or Langford.
I mentioned Brandon Clarke earlier, I think he's a perfect back up PF and small ball center if the price is right. I actually like that he's not a big time three point shooter, this team needs D and rebounding from that role, not more three point shooting. We have enough players that like to bomb away. My only worry is can he add some more muscle?
I'd also like to add Yam Madar, I'd love adding him as a two way guy. Yet maybe they want to give him a 4 year deal for bird right. He needs to get some more experience and add muscle, yet he looks damn good this year. He's a good scrappy defender, who quick with the ball and attacks the basket. Yet there's a lawsuit over his release, so maybe you need to wait a year. Yet that's a pick that has aged crazy well already.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 30, 2021 14:27:12 GMT -5
It’s funny you bring up Madar, I was gonna post that he’s having a pretty good season overseas. His highlight tapes look promising, seems like a possible find in the 2nd
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Post by soxfansince67 on May 30, 2021 20:30:20 GMT -5
Start by saying goodbye to Thompson, Ojeleye - not sold on Grant Williams - and of course Kornet, Fall, Edwards. I also think it's time to bid Smart farewell, and sadly (due to the injury sitation), Kemba. VERY different team next year, built around Jaylen and Tatum.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on May 30, 2021 20:52:57 GMT -5
Start by saying goodbye to Thompson, Ojeleye - not sold on Grant Williams - and of course Kornet, Fall, Edwards. I also think it's time to bid Smart farewell, and sadly (due to the injury sitation), Kemba. VERY different team next year, built around Jaylen and Tatum. I think there’s a good chance all of this happens, except maybe Kemba because his contract will be tough to move. But he needs to re-invent his game a bit and focus more on getting Tatum/Jaylen easy baskets. But the rest of those guys - goodbye. There’s way too much filler on this roster, and Brad seems to have a soft spot for Marcus that’s hurting the team (similar to Theis). |
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Post by texs31 on May 31, 2021 9:35:39 GMT -5
Heard some people suggest OKC (Horford) as a possible trade partner for a Kemba deal. Think you'd have to be okay with:
a) Paying Presti (w picks and/or young players) to take on the extra money
b) Al not being close to the player that he was when he left (but still an upgrade over TT?)
Not sure where I am on this.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 31, 2021 9:50:49 GMT -5
Heard some people suggest OKC (Horford) as a possible trade partner for a Kemba deal. Think you'd have to be okay with: a) Paying Presti (w picks and/or young players) to take on the extra money b) Al not being close to the player that he was when he left (but still an upgrade over TT?) Not sure where I am on this. I'm not okay with paying with picks or players unless it's second rounders or fringe guys. Getting Horford isn't horrible, yet not at any big cost. If you want to play with fire, I'd say go try for Wall and Woods. Not saying I want to do that, yet if you are giving up assets of any real value that makes more sense. |
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