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Celtics 2021 Offseason
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Post by philarhody on Jun 22, 2021 12:03:35 GMT -5
You have a zero percent chance at Simmons. I always thought he was a PF/Small ball center. Yet he can't be that unless he can get over this recent meltdown. He's the reason they lost. He let his FT issues effect his play, he was turning down basically layups. Max player not even taking a shot during the 4th quarter. Sure he's a very good passer and defender, yet what made him elite was his ability to go to the basket. If he can no longer do that because he fears being fouled, he'll become Rondo. Sure he's had a nice career, helped teams, yet he looked like he could have been a HOF player before his FT issues and he never again was the guy who went toe to toe with prime Rose in the playoffs. That type of scoring just went away forever. Let's not forget Simmons had major issues before, he wouldn't even try taking three pointers. Team down three 1 second on the clock and he won’t even take the shot, now you have this. On a plus note I can't remember a player tanking his value so quickly. I always thought the Sixers needed to pick one, that pairing was never going to work. Now by the time they reach that point, Simmons tanks. I feel for the player, I've always liked Simmons. Yet this is a win for the Celtics. All those picks, options and players. Yet they have Harris as their second best player with a prime Embiid and they'll likely get 50 cents on the dollar for Simmons. Your first statement has nothing to do with the rest of what you shared. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 22, 2021 12:06:35 GMT -5
You have a zero percent chance at Simmons. I always thought he was a PF/Small ball center. Yet he can't be that unless he can get over this recent meltdown. He's the reason they lost. He let his FT issues effect his play, he was turning down basically layups. Max player not even taking a shot during the 4th quarter. Sure he's a very good passer and defender, yet what made him elite was his ability to go to the basket. If he can no longer do that because he fears being fouled, he'll become Rondo. Sure he's had a nice career, helped teams, yet he looked like he could have been a HOF player before his FT issues and he never again was the guy who went toe to toe with prime Rose in the playoffs. That type of scoring just went away forever. Let's not forget Simmons had major issues before, he wouldn't even try taking three pointers. Team down three 1 second on the clock and he won’t even take the shot, now you have this. On a plus note I can't remember a player tanking his value so quickly. I always thought the Sixers needed to pick one, that pairing was never going to work. Now by the time they reach that point, Simmons tanks. I feel for the player, I've always liked Simmons. Yet this is a win for the Celtics. All those picks, options and players. Yet they have Harris as their second best player with a prime Embiid and they'll likely get 50 cents on the dollar for Simmons. Your first statement has nothing to do with the rest of what you shared. Correct, I wanted to make two points. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 22, 2021 12:25:27 GMT -5
Some are speculating (given statements about it being easier to resign Fournier, after the Kemba trade) that the C's budget might be around 10M + Luxury Tax (saw @dangercart post it first).
If we assume no trades, that means you have about 20M to spend with somewhere between 12-15M on Fournier. That would leave them with the tax payers MLE (5.9) to sign someone.
Of course, there are other options should Brad move a C (Thompson) or decide that Smart has reached the point where is next contract outweighs his value.
EDIT - to be clear, that is how much they have to spend relative to that suggested budget. They do NOT have 20M to sign on an outside FA bc they are over the cap (sure most know that but figured I'd preempt a call out).
The tools they have for signing:
MLE - likely the taxpayer of ~5.9M.
BAE - 3.7M
6 Trade exceptions with the 11M remaining on the Hayward exception being the biggest.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 22, 2021 13:14:08 GMT -5
I’m not sure Simmons will be quite 50 cents on the dollar but his value is likely less than it would have been last year. However, none of his problems are really all that new.
That being said, if you are Portland, it makes some sense to look into trading McCollum for him.
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mobaz
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Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on Jun 22, 2021 13:57:25 GMT -5
You have a zero percent chance at Simmons. I always thought he was a PF/Small ball center. Yet he can't be that unless he can get over this recent meltdown. He's the reason they lost. He let his FT issues effect his play, he was turning down basically layups. Max player not even taking a shot during the 4th quarter. Sure he's a very good passer and defender, yet what made him elite was his ability to go to the basket. If he can no longer do that because he fears being fouled, he'll become Rondo. Sure he's had a nice career, helped teams, yet he looked like he could have been a HOF player before his FT issues and he never again was the guy who went toe to toe with prime Rose in the playoffs. That type of scoring just went away forever. Let's not forget Simmons had major issues before, he wouldn't even try taking three pointers. Team down three 1 second on the clock and he won’t even take the shot, now you have this. On a plus note I can't remember a player tanking his value so quickly. I always thought the Sixers needed to pick one, that pairing was never going to work. Now by the time they reach that point, Simmons tanks. I feel for the player, I've always liked Simmons. Yet this is a win for the Celtics. All those picks, options and players. Yet they have Harris as their second best player with a prime Embiid and they'll likely get 50 cents on the dollar for Simmons. Plus he shoots with the wrong hand. |
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shagworthy
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My neckbeard game is on point.
Posts: 1,864 
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Post by shagworthy on Jun 22, 2021 14:21:44 GMT -5
You have a zero percent chance at Simmons. I always thought he was a PF/Small ball center. Yet he can't be that unless he can get over this recent meltdown. He's the reason they lost. He let his FT issues effect his play, he was turning down basically layups. Max player not even taking a shot during the 4th quarter. Sure he's a very good passer and defender, yet what made him elite was his ability to go to the basket. If he can no longer do that because he fears being fouled, he'll become Rondo. Sure he's had a nice career, helped teams, yet he looked like he could have been a HOF player before his FT issues and he never again was the guy who went toe to toe with prime Rose in the playoffs. That type of scoring just went away forever. Let's not forget Simmons had major issues before, he wouldn't even try taking three pointers. Team down three 1 second on the clock and he won’t even take the shot, now you have this. On a plus note I can't remember a player tanking his value so quickly. I always thought the Sixers needed to pick one, that pairing was never going to work. Now by the time they reach that point, Simmons tanks. I feel for the player, I've always liked Simmons. Yet this is a win for the Celtics. All those picks, options and players. Yet they have Harris as their second best player with a prime Embiid and they'll likely get 50 cents on the dollar for Simmons. Agreed on Simmons, I'm not sure I want him on the Celtics, but he's at least a good dude. I never could stand and still can't stand Embiid. He's symbolic to me of everything that is wrong with the NBA. He has swagger before he earned it and Philly fans can't stand it, but it's the truth. Every year he talks a big game, and every year his team is sent home early in the playoffs. He whines about fouls but has in my opinion gotten away with some shady fouls himself. I guess he's the kind of guy you like when they are on your team (a-la Smart) but you put their picture on a dart board when they are elsewhere. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 22, 2021 16:17:18 GMT -5
You have 13 contracts on the books. I move Thompson as I don't want four centers on a 15 man roster, especially when two are top five in salary. I don't mind Robert Williams and Horford splitting time with Brown as the backup.
Rather use that money and spot to see if you can get a legit PF, who could play small ball center. Gives you depth for the center spot, yet also another option to match up with teams. Not an easy thing to find though. Thompson for Saric isn't the perfect fit, yet that makes a lot of sense.
Get a PG, then resign Fournier. Sure you could look at Edwards and Parker, yet I'm okay with those guys. You just need to find a PG.
Then it's just filling out the two ways contracts. Madar and our pick this year.
You can obviously do a bunch more if you want to look at trading Smart, combining him with Thompson or a sign and trade with Fournier.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 22, 2021 16:21:12 GMT -5
I’m not sure Simmons will be quite 50 cents on the dollar but his value is likely less than it would have been last year. However, none of his problems are really all that new. That being said, if you are Portland, it makes some sense to look into trading McCollum for him. I'd say 32% FT shooting in the playoffs is new. I actually love that trade idea for both teams. It's funny listening to fans theory on value. Blazers fans want more, like Maxey and a first, Sixers fan feel the opposite way. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 23, 2021 6:09:31 GMT -5
I’m not sure Simmons will be quite 50 cents on the dollar but his value is likely less than it would have been last year. However, none of his problems are really all that new. That being said, if you are Portland, it makes some sense to look into trading McCollum for him. I'd say 32% FT shooting in the playoffs is new. I actually love that trade idea for both teams. It's funny listening to fans theory on value. Blazers fans want more, like Maxey and a first, Sixers fan feel the opposite way. Yea of course but no one is going to look at him and say that’s anything other than an anomaly. He’s basically been a 60% FT shooter for all 4 years on about 5 attempts per game - he’s been consistent there - using anything but that doesn’t make a lot of sense. It’s still bad but it’s who he is and we’ve known that. He clearly had a confidence meltdown with regards to shooting in the Atlanta series but are you going to let one series change your perception? It’s weird because it’s not like his shooting numbers (other than at the line) we’re different than normal. They were actually slightly better. My feeling is the trade value around the league is probably the same as it was before but the Sixers will be more willing to let him go for that price. The Sixers probably felt is value was that if some transcendent player, whereas the rest of the league looked at his glaring flaws and are willing to give up a lot but not sell the farm for him. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 23, 2021 6:24:52 GMT -5
The more I read about the Celtics roster and financial position, the more I’m curious as to which direction they go. I can definitely see multiple possibilities.
1. They let Fornier walk, and don’t sign any multi-year deals to keep maximum flexibility for next season when they can get good cap space.
2. They resign Fournier and try to piece together a roster.
Then within both of these scenarios there are multiple possibilities once you factor in if they trade Thompson for more room etc.
Part of me prefers they use this year as a mini reset. I’d keep Fournier if his number is low (say 13m per). If not, let him go. Play Nesmith, Romeo and Pritchard big minutes and live with the growing pains. Turn the team completely over to the J’s (happening anyways) This is how you build players values. Then look to sign strategic one year deals or 2 year deals with team options. Then you can create the cap space next year to add a big free agent, assuming you move on from Marcus. Who knows, maybe doing this and the new coach sets Smart right and things work out and you keep him long term.
Doing it this way doesn’t mean you don’t contend next year. I think they can, just having Tatum and Brown ensures that as possible. Fully healthy off-seasons from Nesmith and Romeo add big upside. We’ve seen the impact Rob Williams can have and Horford will make everyone better.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 23, 2021 8:03:58 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 23, 2021 9:29:59 GMT -5
I'd say 32% FT shooting in the playoffs is new. I actually love that trade idea for both teams. It's funny listening to fans theory on value. Blazers fans want more, like Maxey and a first, Sixers fan feel the opposite way. Yea of course but no one is going to look at him and say that’s anything other than an anomaly. He’s basically been a 60% FT shooter for all 4 years on about 5 attempts per game - he’s been consistent there - using anything but that doesn’t make a lot of sense. It’s still bad but it’s who he is and we’ve known that. He clearly had a confidence meltdown with regards to shooting in the Atlanta series but are you going to let one series change your perception? It’s weird because it’s not like his shooting numbers (other than at the line) we’re different than normal. They were actually slightly better. My feeling is the trade value around the league is probably the same as it was before but the Sixers will be more willing to let him go for that price. The Sixers probably felt is value was that if some transcendent player, whereas the rest of the league looked at his glaring flaws and are willing to give up a lot but not sell the farm for him. One series? He was at 35% for the Wizard series. 12 games is a rather large sample size, worst yet he let it effect his play. That's the scary part, he went all Rondo, stopped taking shots and was turning down basically layups. If he acted like it was nothing, okay I wouldn't really think twice. Yet I've seen this before with Rondo and he was never the same. He already had issues mentally with his shooting and now this. Last three playoffs points 16.3, 13.9 and 11.9, FT% 70.7, 57.5 and 34.2, minutes 36.9, 35.1 and 33.5. I'm sure his FT percentage goes back up, yet can he recover mentally where he doesn't become less aggressive because of this? Rick Ankiel with his ball issues ended his pitching career. From ROY runner up and future ace, to trying to be just a hitter. I was just throwing out numbers, sure I don't really believe it tanked 50%. Yet it's closer to that than it hasn't changed at all. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 23, 2021 9:30:05 GMT -5
I like Bobby Marks stuff but I’m not paying ESPN anymore, I gave that up years ago and not because of deflate gate. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 23, 2021 9:49:17 GMT -5
Yea of course but no one is going to look at him and say that’s anything other than an anomaly. He’s basically been a 60% FT shooter for all 4 years on about 5 attempts per game - he’s been consistent there - using anything but that doesn’t make a lot of sense. It’s still bad but it’s who he is and we’ve known that. He clearly had a confidence meltdown with regards to shooting in the Atlanta series but are you going to let one series change your perception? It’s weird because it’s not like his shooting numbers (other than at the line) we’re different than normal. They were actually slightly better. My feeling is the trade value around the league is probably the same as it was before but the Sixers will be more willing to let him go for that price. The Sixers probably felt is value was that if some transcendent player, whereas the rest of the league looked at his glaring flaws and are willing to give up a lot but not sell the farm for him. One series? He was at 35% for the Wizard series. 12 games is a rather large sample size, worst yet he let it effect his play. That's the scary part, he went all Rondo, stopped taking shots and was turning down basically layups. If he acted like it was nothing, okay I wouldn't really think twice. Yet I've seen this before with Rondo and he was never the same. He already had issues mentally with his shooting and now this. Last three playoffs points 16.3, 13.9 and 11.9, FT% 70.7, 57.5 and 34.2, minutes 36.9, 35.1 and 33.5. I'm sure his FT percentage goes back up, yet can he recover mentally where he doesn't become less aggressive because of this? Rick Ankiel with his ball issues ended his pitching career. From ROY runner up and future ace, to trying to be just a hitter. I was just throwing out numbers, sure I don't really believe it tanked 50%. Yet it's closer to that than it hasn't changed at all. I guess we’d have to establish what it was before to what it is now. I’d agree it’s dropped a lot in the Sixers mind which now makes him available. So in that regard, his value has dropped significantly but I’m not sure what I just described is actual value. I really don’t care to come off as defending Simmons, as I really dislike the player. He’s done nothing to try and improve his game and makes excuses constantly. I knew this before this season though and I’d venture to say execs around the league did as well. I mean, forget 3 point shooting or a midrange game, he hasn’t even developed his post and short game. He can dunk and finish layups. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 23, 2021 9:49:17 GMT -5
Yea of course but no one is going to look at him and say that’s anything other than an anomaly. He’s basically been a 60% FT shooter for all 4 years on about 5 attempts per game - he’s been consistent there - using anything but that doesn’t make a lot of sense. It’s still bad but it’s who he is and we’ve known that. He clearly had a confidence meltdown with regards to shooting in the Atlanta series but are you going to let one series change your perception? It’s weird because it’s not like his shooting numbers (other than at the line) we’re different than normal. They were actually slightly better. My feeling is the trade value around the league is probably the same as it was before but the Sixers will be more willing to let him go for that price. The Sixers probably felt is value was that if some transcendent player, whereas the rest of the league looked at his glaring flaws and are willing to give up a lot but not sell the farm for him. One series? He was at 35% for the Wizard series. 12 games is a rather large sample size, worst yet he let it effect his play. That's the scary part, he went all Rondo, stopped taking shots and was turning down basically layups. If he acted like it was nothing, okay I wouldn't really think twice. Yet I've seen this before with Rondo and he was never the same. He already had issues mentally with his shooting and now this. Last three playoffs points 16.3, 13.9 and 11.9, FT% 70.7, 57.5 and 34.2, minutes 36.9, 35.1 and 33.5. I'm sure his FT percentage goes back up, yet can he recover mentally where he doesn't become less aggressive because of this? Rick Ankiel with his ball issues ended his pitching career. From ROY runner up and future ace, to trying to be just a hitter. I was just throwing out numbers, sure I don't really believe it tanked 50%. Yet it's closer to that than it hasn't changed at all. I guess we’d have to establish what it was before to what it is now. I’d agree it’s dropped a lot in the Sixers mind which now makes him available. So in that regard, his value has dropped significantly but I’m not sure what I just described is actual value. I really don’t care to come off as defending Simmons, as I really dislike the player. He’s done nothing to try and improve his game and makes excuses constantly. I knew this before this season though and I’d venture to say execs around the league did as well. I mean, forget 3 point shooting or a midrange game, he hasn’t even developed his post and short game. He can dunk and finish layups. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 23, 2021 10:00:32 GMT -5
The more I read about the Celtics roster and financial position, the more I’m curious as to which direction they go. I can definitely see multiple possibilities. 1. They let Fornier walk, and don’t sign any multi-year deals to keep maximum flexibility for next season when they can get good cap space. 2. They resign Fournier and try to piece together a roster. Then within both of these scenarios there are multiple possibilities once you factor in if they trade Thompson for more room etc. Part of me prefers they use this year as a mini reset. I’d keep Fournier if his number is low (say 13m per). If not, let him go. Play Nesmith, Romeo and Pritchard big minutes and live with the growing pains. Turn the team completely over to the J’s (happening anyways) This is how you build players values. Then look to sign strategic one year deals or 2 year deals with team options. Then you can create the cap space next year to add a big free agent, assuming you move on from Marcus. Who knows, maybe doing this and the new coach sets Smart right and things work out and you keep him long term. Doing it this way doesn’t mean you don’t contend next year. I think they can, just having Tatum and Brown ensures that as possible. Fully healthy off-seasons from Nesmith and Romeo add big upside. We’ve seen the impact Rob Williams can have and Horford will make everyone better. From what I've seen if you let Fournier walk, renounce Smart, renounce Robert Williams and stretch Horford you can get $20 million in cap space. That's also no signing or trading for anyone unless it's a one year/expiring deal this year. If you could get max space to sign a Bradley Beal type okay maybe it makes sense. Yet who are you getting for $20 million that's worth Fournier, Smart, Robert Williams and Horford? The Celtics have a bunch of options, I don't see how the cap space route next year makes any sense given what it costs. If you just wanted a mini rebuild you should have kept Walker and used the 16th pick. Then next year it would have been easy to dump an expiring deal for a pick. Sorry not trying to be hostile, yet I feel the cap space approach kills this team next year and in the future. If you don't want to sign Fournier, then flip him for a player like Rozier. Maintain a legit talent level and flexibility. Robert Williams, Tatum, Brown, Fournier and Smart with Horford, Nesmith, Langford, Pritchard and another veteran PG gets me excited. Fournier is huge in today's NBA. Counting on the young guys as key bench pieces is risky, moving one into the starting lineup is kinda crazy if you really want to win. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 23, 2021 10:24:18 GMT -5
I like Bobby Marks stuff but I’m not paying ESPN anymore, I gave that up years ago and not because of deflate gate. I hear you. I still get enough to make it worthwhile (Marks, Pelton, Schmitt/Givony, McDaniel for MLB Draft, Kiper/McShay). What they've turned into is . . . not great, but it's one of my better subs in terms of ROI. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Jun 23, 2021 10:34:42 GMT -5
I like Bobby Marks stuff but I’m not paying ESPN anymore, I gave that up years ago and not because of deflate gate. ditto The Athletic on the other hand is worth the money, consistently good reporting IMO. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 23, 2021 10:45:49 GMT -5
I still can't get over how they kill draft express likely the best NBA mock draft site, then can't come close to bringing that to ESPN. All you needed was to just transfer it. You need to pay to get like 10% of what you once got for free. Heck Ford gave you more information.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 23, 2021 10:52:44 GMT -5
The more I read about the Celtics roster and financial position, the more I’m curious as to which direction they go. I can definitely see multiple possibilities. 1. They let Fornier walk, and don’t sign any multi-year deals to keep maximum flexibility for next season when they can get good cap space. 2. They resign Fournier and try to piece together a roster. Then within both of these scenarios there are multiple possibilities once you factor in if they trade Thompson for more room etc. Part of me prefers they use this year as a mini reset. I’d keep Fournier if his number is low (say 13m per). If not, let him go. Play Nesmith, Romeo and Pritchard big minutes and live with the growing pains. Turn the team completely over to the J’s (happening anyways) This is how you build players values. Then look to sign strategic one year deals or 2 year deals with team options. Then you can create the cap space next year to add a big free agent, assuming you move on from Marcus. Who knows, maybe doing this and the new coach sets Smart right and things work out and you keep him long term. Doing it this way doesn’t mean you don’t contend next year. I think they can, just having Tatum and Brown ensures that as possible. Fully healthy off-seasons from Nesmith and Romeo add big upside. We’ve seen the impact Rob Williams can have and Horford will make everyone better. From what I've seen if you let Fournier walk, renounce Smart, renounce Robert Williams and stretch Horford you can get $20 million in cap space. That's also no signing or trading for anyone unless it's a one year/expiring deal this year. If you could get max space to sign a Bradley Beal type okay maybe it makes sense. Yet who are you getting for $20 million that's worth Fournier, Smart, Robert Williams and Horford? The Celtics have a bunch of options, I don't see how the cap space route next year makes any sense given what it costs. If you just wanted a mini rebuild you should have kept Walker and used the 16th pick. Then next year it would have been easy to dump an expiring deal for a pick. Sorry not trying to be hostile, yet I feel the cap space approach kills this team next year and in the future. If you don't want to sign Fournier, then flip him for a player like Rozier. Maintain a legit talent level and flexibility. Robert Williams, Tatum, Brown, Fournier and Smart with Horford, Nesmith, Langford, Pritchard and another veteran PG gets me excited. Fournier is huge in today's NBA. Counting on the young guys as key bench pieces is risky, moving one into the starting lineup is kinda crazy if you really want to win. its not hostile and if it's accurate then i'll agree. I did some calculations and if the caps is $115,787,000 then I believe you can create up to $38,243,352 in space. You'd have to renounce Rob Williams and Smart. Then you'd need to stretch Horford and trade Grant Williams and Edwards into someone's cap space. You could waive Moses Brown and get more space or do that instead of trading Edwards. Lets pretend its Beal they are signing. That'd leave you with a roster of: Tatum Brown Beal Langford Nesmith Pritchard Moses Brown The hard Cap would probably be around $146m so you could probably use the full tax paying MLE, the bi-annual and pay your first round pick then fill out the roster with vet minimum deals and stay under the hard cap. I guess it all depends what Beal tells Tatum at the Olympics  . |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 23, 2021 12:13:55 GMT -5
I believe that group would leave 34.152M in Cap Room pending how much of a hit Horford's buyout/stretch would be as well as the hold on their 22 draft pick.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 23, 2021 13:20:14 GMT -5
I get $32,210,332 that doesn't include the first round pick hold that will likely take you under 30 million, yet you can't know that number exactly right now without knowing the pick. That number from that article was about right, the difference being no pick hold and dumping Grant Williams/Edwards that saves you around 6.3 million.
Max level salary at 30% is $34,736,100, nevermind Beal will have ten years service time next year, meaning he can get 35% of the cap starting out. That's $40,525,450 million year one.
I used $953,012 cap hold to make up the minimum 12 roster spots and from what I see you can Stretch Horfords $14.5 million over 3 years, so $4.83 million. So you can’t even dump Brown and Pritchard to get max money, it would have to be Langford or Nesmith to even get to the 30% range.
At that point, full on nuclear plan, why not just trade for him? A trade isn't costing you Robert Williams, Fournier, Smart, Horford, Grant Williams, Edward's, the ability to sign anyone over a year right now, bringing over Madar or a 2nd round pick, etc.
You want Bradley Beal have Tatum get him to demand a trade to Boston or he's leaving next year for nothing. He's not Harden signed long-term, he has way more power and leverage.
I just hate nuclear plays, it's not easy to rebuild depth.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 23, 2021 14:01:23 GMT -5
Ime Udoka will be the next Celtics Head Coach, per everybody.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jun 23, 2021 14:15:33 GMT -5
Good hire! Comes from the Pop tree, is apparently good with players, Celtics stars like him from his time with the US National Team in 2019, wasn't annoying as commentator unlike Billups, experienced. Hope it works!
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nomar
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Posts: 11,604
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Post by nomar on Jun 23, 2021 14:37:39 GMT -5
All good with this.
Would love to make enough space for Lowry but seems very far fetched.
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