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Celtics 2021 Offseason
ianrs
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Post by ianrs on Jun 14, 2021 2:48:31 GMT -5
Would the Knicks consider taking on Kemba for a 2nd and a pick swap (e.g. 16 for 19, or 16 for 21)? How does this sound to you as a C's fan?
If I'm the C's, I don't love it, but the flexibility it frees up is undeniable and I do it in a heartbeat. If I'm the Knicks and can't lure many FAs anyway, I like it to get a local legend and high level scorer which I badly need to take the next step in the playoffs.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 14, 2021 5:26:38 GMT -5
That’s a no-brainer move for the Celtics, the Knicks don’t do it
His value is more negative than dropping down a handful of picks unfortunately
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 14, 2021 5:33:12 GMT -5
Kemba Walker isn’t a negative player; he’s still a very good one. We’ve also seen a lot of “bad contracts” traded. He’s not bringing back a huge return, but it’s not an automatic he costs them in a trade either. We’ve seen this game before.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 14, 2021 6:28:25 GMT -5
He’s making $35 million a year until 2024, has a degenerative knee, and he was the worst player on the court in the playoffs- he absolutely has negative value
I hope I’m wrong but i don’t see it
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 14, 2021 10:39:16 GMT -5
He’s making $35 million a year until 2024, has a degenerative knee, and he was the worst player on the court in the playoffs- he absolutely has negative value I hope I’m wrong but i don’t see it That’s a bit misleading, he has 2 years left on his contract. He’ll be a free agent in 2023 and will start playing on his next contract in 2023. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Jun 14, 2021 11:14:13 GMT -5
If the C's don't get a worthy deal for Kemba IMO they should wait and see what he looks like next year with the hopes that he is mostly healthy and can contribute even if it is mostly as a 6th man. That wouldn't be the best scenario but it beats nothing if he can lead the 2nd unit to being a strength not a weakness. Maybe he just isn't a great fit with the J's and is better as a spark plug off the bench. Those options are better than making a bad trade just to get rid of him.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 14, 2021 11:32:36 GMT -5
sports.yahoo.com/boston-kemba-walker-hard-trade-001235901.html?.tsrc=fp_deeplinkI really respect David Alridge, yet he can't even give an example. Without Schroder it's crazy hard. Kuzma is interesting, yet his up and down shooting is scary considering that's his value. I like Harrell yet he's been abused for two straight playoffs, he's almost in Kanter territory. I want no part of Caldwell Pope. So you would have to be talking about some multiple team trade. Such a tricky scenario for a brand new GM. I assume you are talking about Stevens, I’m pretty sure Zarren has been promoted from assistant GM to GM and Stevens is the President of Basketball opps… I’ve heard it described as Stevens has marginally more decision making than Zarren. Which is a way of saying Stevens has final say but Zarren will be doing the heavy lifting as GM, which quite frankly he did all the leg work for Ainge anyways. Zarren is a salary cap genius. Stevens won’t have a lot to worry about there - not that Stevens doesn’t or won’t know how to navigate it - he’s extremely intelligent and now it’s his focus. When I say GM I'm talking about the guy who has the final say, that's Steven's. A front office is filled with people, it was never just Danny Ainge yet he made the choices. That's what is tough, not the salary cap rules, this isn't football. I worry about the path a brand new guy takes because it's going to shape our future. Steven's messes up this off-season like Danny did last year and things will get bad in a hurry. My worry isn't that Steven's doesn't know the NBA salary cap. It's that he picks the right path and that's not easy this year. He only needs to nail hiring a coach, a Kemba Walker trade, a fairly valuable draft pick, depth, amount of tax we pay, yet set the foundation for our next championship. I feel this might be the most important off-season since 2007. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 14, 2021 11:59:52 GMT -5
I don't see how you argue Kemba Walker isn't a negative asset! That doesn't mean you can't trade him. Heck it doesn't even mean it will be a massive horrible deal like the ones predicted by people. Yet there's just no way he's a positive asset. If he was the Knicks would be offering us picks and young players for him, not the other way around.
Have you guys looked at the free agent market? It's horrible, that's one thing that could help us trade him. Yet it's also why I don't really get dumping him for just space. Not a bunch of options to spend the non tax paying mid level on. You won't be getting any cap space that's meaningful. If the Knicks did that trade it's because there's nothing better to spend their money on.
So what's the plan to use his money?
I want him gone as much as anyone, yet you need to be careful. Make sure we are better without him than with him and it's not just a way to save our owners money.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 14, 2021 12:16:02 GMT -5
He’s making $35 million a year until 2024, has a degenerative knee, and he was the worst player on the court in the playoffs- he absolutely has negative value I hope I’m wrong but i don’t see it That’s a bit misleading, he has 2 years left on his contract. He’ll be a free agent in 2023 and will start playing on his next contract in 2023. I mean it’s not that misleading, if you go to spotrac he’s a UFA in the 2024 class. 2 more years of a player who is a negative on the court while making $73 million over that span is quite, quite unattractive. It’s wild to me that some people don’t think he has negative value. Wild. Like it’s bananaland territory. You’re going to have to pay somebody in assets to take that contract. Either that or they take on a similar problem of another team and hope the change of scenery fixes the issue. It’s just a matter of how much crap they have to take on/assets they have to send out and if it’s worthwhile to do it |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 14, 2021 13:29:39 GMT -5
That’s a bit misleading, he has 2 years left on his contract. He’ll be a free agent in 2023 and will start playing on his next contract in 2023. I mean it’s not that misleading, if you go to spotrac he’s a UFA in the 2024 class. 2 more years of a player who is a negative on the court while making $73 million over that span is quite, quite unattractive. It’s wild to me that some people don’t think he has negative value. Wild. Like it’s bananaland territory. You’re going to have to pay somebody in assets to take that contract. Either that or they take on a similar problem of another team and hope the change of scenery fixes the issue. It’s just a matter of how much crap they have to take on/assets they have to send out and if it’s worthwhile to do it If you go to spotract and they followed the same path as it with contracts it would say 2023-24 season. Saying 2024 says he has 3 years left. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 14, 2021 13:30:43 GMT -5
I don't see how you argue Kemba Walker isn't a negative asset! That doesn't mean you can't trade him. Heck it doesn't even mean it will be a massive horrible deal like the ones predicted by people. Yet there's just no way he's a positive asset. If he was the Knicks would be offering us picks and young players for him, not the other way around. Have you guys looked at the free agent market? It's horrible, that's one thing that could help us trade him. Yet it's also why I don't really get dumping him for just space. Not a bunch of options to spend the non tax paying mid level on. You won't be getting any cap space that's meaningful. If the Knicks did that trade it's because there's nothing better to spend their money on. So what's the plan to use his money? I want him gone as much as anyone, yet you need to be careful. Make sure we are better without him than with him and it's not just a way to save our owners money. I’m basing it entirely off the absurd proposals that are out there. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 14, 2021 13:32:05 GMT -5
I assume you are talking about Stevens, I’m pretty sure Zarren has been promoted from assistant GM to GM and Stevens is the President of Basketball opps… I’ve heard it described as Stevens has marginally more decision making than Zarren. Which is a way of saying Stevens has final say but Zarren will be doing the heavy lifting as GM, which quite frankly he did all the leg work for Ainge anyways. Zarren is a salary cap genius. Stevens won’t have a lot to worry about there - not that Stevens doesn’t or won’t know how to navigate it - he’s extremely intelligent and now it’s his focus. When I say GM I'm talking about the guy who has the final say, that's Steven's. A front office is filled with people, it was never just Danny Ainge yet he made the choices. That's what is tough, not the salary cap rules, this isn't football. I worry about the path a brand new guy takes because it's going to shape our future. Steven's messes up this off-season like Danny did last year and things will get bad in a hurry. My worry isn't that Steven's doesn't know the NBA salary cap. It's that he picks the right path and that's not easy this year. He only needs to nail hiring a coach, a Kemba Walker trade, a fairly valuable draft pick, depth, amount of tax we pay, yet set the foundation for our next championship. I feel this might be the most important off-season since 2007. That’s fine but you brought it up in the context of him being able to navigate a 3 team trade. That’s different than picking the right path. He’s going to have no issues navigating a 3 team trade because Zarren will be the one navigating the details. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 14, 2021 13:37:49 GMT -5
When I say GM I'm talking about the guy who has the final say, that's Steven's. A front office is filled with people, it was never just Danny Ainge yet he made the choices. That's what is tough, not the salary cap rules, this isn't football. I worry about the path a brand new guy takes because it's going to shape our future. Steven's messes up this off-season like Danny did last year and things will get bad in a hurry. My worry isn't that Steven's doesn't know the NBA salary cap. It's that he picks the right path and that's not easy this year. He only needs to nail hiring a coach, a Kemba Walker trade, a fairly valuable draft pick, depth, amount of tax we pay, yet set the foundation for our next championship. I feel this might be the most important off-season since 2007. That’s fine but you brought it up in the context of him being able to navigate a 3 team trade. That’s different than picking the right path. He’s going to have no issues navigating a 3 team trade because Zarren will be the one navigating the details. The issue is finding a deal that makes sense, not the details in making it work. Come on now, you act like the NBA is the NFL. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 14, 2021 13:40:43 GMT -5
I don't see how you argue Kemba Walker isn't a negative asset! That doesn't mean you can't trade him. Heck it doesn't even mean it will be a massive horrible deal like the ones predicted by people. Yet there's just no way he's a positive asset. If he was the Knicks would be offering us picks and young players for him, not the other way around. Have you guys looked at the free agent market? It's horrible, that's one thing that could help us trade him. Yet it's also why I don't really get dumping him for just space. Not a bunch of options to spend the non tax paying mid level on. You won't be getting any cap space that's meaningful. If the Knicks did that trade it's because there's nothing better to spend their money on. So what's the plan to use his money? I want him gone as much as anyone, yet you need to be careful. Make sure we are better without him than with him and it's not just a way to save our owners money. I’m basing it entirely off the absurd proposals that are out there. What? Worst case scenario type trade mean he doesn't have negative value? I certainly buy his value isn't as bad as those trades make it seem. Yet that doesn't make it not negative. It's just a debate of how negative it is. |
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cdj
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Posts: 15,856
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Post by cdj on Jun 14, 2021 14:51:34 GMT -5
I mean it’s not that misleading, if you go to spotrac he’s a UFA in the 2024 class. 2 more years of a player who is a negative on the court while making $73 million over that span is quite, quite unattractive. It’s wild to me that some people don’t think he has negative value. Wild. Like it’s bananaland territory. You’re going to have to pay somebody in assets to take that contract. Either that or they take on a similar problem of another team and hope the change of scenery fixes the issue. It’s just a matter of how much crap they have to take on/assets they have to send out and if it’s worthwhile to do it If you go to spotract and they followed the same path as it with contracts it would say 2023-24 season. Saying 2024 says he has 3 years left. This is tedious. Sorry for saying what spotrac said, literally looking at it now. It’s all beside the point. We both know the amount of dollars and seasons left as I even said it in the post you quoted. It’s over $70 million. 2 more full seasons. He was a negative on the court, has a bum knee, and is on the wrong side of 30. He has negative value. That’s not even really an opinion. Nobody is giving up anything of value for him unless we pay them to take him with young assets or take on another teams similar issue I will throw a pizza party for everybody in the forum if I’m wrong, I hope I am lol Im just 99% sure I won’t be |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 14, 2021 15:15:43 GMT -5
I'm not even sure what the point is anymore.
- Is he negative value (have to "pay" someone to take him) or reduced value (won't get as much for him as most 19PPG guys)?
- Is he negative value "on the court" (3.3 WS; 1.8 BPM; 3.5 WAR sounds like a positive) but if we factor in contract, isn't that "off the court"?
- Will he be easy move (David Aldridge) or "easy to move if you're willing to lose the trade"
My brain already hurts.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jun 14, 2021 15:37:50 GMT -5
Why would you sell low on Kemba with no immediate replacement in sight? I truly don't get the point. Trading Kemba if that brings another PG that makes more sense is fine, dumping him for "cap flexibility" is not.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 14, 2021 17:53:05 GMT -5
If you go to spotract and they followed the same path as it with contracts it would say 2023-24 season. Saying 2024 says he has 3 years left. This is tedious. Sorry for saying what spotrac said, literally looking at it now. It’s all beside the point. We both know the amount of dollars and seasons left as I even said it in the post you quoted. It’s over $70 million. 2 more full seasons. He was a negative on the court, has a bum knee, and is on the wrong side of 30. He has negative value. That’s not even really an opinion. Nobody is giving up anything of value for him unless we pay them to take him with young assets or take on another teams similar issue I will throw a pizza party for everybody in the forum if I’m wrong, I hope I am lol Im just 99% sure I won’t be I was simply trying to clarify for the board that he’s a free agent before 2024. Nothing more. |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 14, 2021 18:19:47 GMT -5
I think moving Kemba makes sense if you can get a deeper team out of it. Like maybe one of those hypothetical clippers trades where you end up with 3 pieces
Kemba just isn’t going to be 100% ever again and he’s going to be targeted nonstop in the playoffs. I guess we can hope for a bounce back but how often do you see a guy come back from a degenerative knee and return to form at his age?
I hope for it. He’s an awesome teammate relative to the guy that was previously here. When he was healthy I thought they could be a special group. It’s just taken an unfortunate turn with his health
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 15, 2021 1:25:10 GMT -5
The way the Clippers are doing it right now is what the Celtics should look to as a blue print. Top 5 guy, top 15 guy, and a bunch of legitimate rotation players that will see at least one step up every game and fill that 3rd scorer role. I think Tatum and Brown will get there.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 15, 2021 10:57:16 GMT -5
I'm not even sure what the point is anymore. - Is he negative value (have to "pay" someone to take him) or reduced value (won't get as much for him as most 19PPG guys)? - Is he negative value "on the court" (3.3 WS; 1.8 BPM; 3.5 WAR sounds like a positive) but if we factor in contract, isn't that "off the court"? - Will he be easy move (David Aldridge) or "easy to move if you're willing to lose the trade" My brain already hurts. Negative Value. Overall he wasn't negative on the court, yet he had his moments when he was like the playoffs and other stretches This is opinion based. I think you can easy move him, I don't think finding a trade that is good for us is easy. If there is even one out there. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 15, 2021 11:12:26 GMT -5
The way the Clippers are doing it right now is what the Celtics should look to as a blue print. Top 5 guy, top 15 guy, and a bunch of legitimate rotation players that will see at least one step up every game and fill that 3rd scorer role. I think Tatum and Brown will get there. Is that really the blueprint you want to use? All the teams in recent memory and you want to be the Clippers? I have a feeling if Mike Conley wasn't injured you wouldn't be saying that. |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 15, 2021 11:24:43 GMT -5
The way the Clippers are doing it right now is what the Celtics should look to as a blue print. Top 5 guy, top 15 guy, and a bunch of legitimate rotation players that will see at least one step up every game and fill that 3rd scorer role. I think Tatum and Brown will get there. Is that really the blueprint you want to use? All the teams in recent memory and you want to be the Clippers? I have a feeling if Mike Conley wasn't injured you wouldn't be saying that. More so just stating that probably their best/only way to move forward is to hope Tatum and Brown become Leonard and George and then you fill out the roster from there with actual rotation players. I just don’t really see any other way forward |
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Post by voiceofreason on Jun 15, 2021 12:25:06 GMT -5
Their are many ways forward and patience is what we all need right now. Patience to see what the C's weapons are next year based on health and development, as has been stated many times.
Leonard and George are playing for their third teams and this is the end of year 2. Players move around now that they have the power to do so and that will only become more prevalent, in my eyes, since that is what the younger guys in the league have seen and the league has become accustomed to, good or bad. Think about the position they want to be in 2 years from now when the J's are in their primes and start making moves that maximize that team. Develop players like Nesmith who could be a future star and Romeo to a lesser extent. Do what you can to make Boston a place that will get that 3rd star rather than losing one of the J's. Players want to win so build the team that will attract that guy and I think they are doing that with the J's leading the way.
Identify the players that are going to be part of that future and start to cull the rest and maybe they get someone who flourishes here out of a trade. This might mean letting Smart go, we will find out what Bard thinks of him now that he is in charge of the roster, maybe it is time to go. Or maybe as I have said in the past he is the Draymond Green of the team and needs to stay.
Just don't let the bad season they just went thru create a situation where you overreact. It would help if they hit it big with a mid first pick and who knows maybe Nesmith is that guy. His college coach, Jerry Stackhouse, seems to think he could have a great pro career. He has the mentality, the shot, who knows as no rookie was going to come in and here and kill it. It takes time with Brad as the coach for a rookie to get that chance.
Patience is the key and I think Brad will be just that.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 15, 2021 13:00:51 GMT -5
You are basically a young version of the Clippers, yet still have a stable of young high upside guys and all your future first round picks. Imagine the Clippers if they didn't trade all their good young players and picks. We are exactly where you want to be. You don't want to act like the Cavs and drive away a young LeBron because you have no future.
I believe in Robert Williams, Nesmith, Langford and Pritchard. You can certainly debate how much of their potential they reach. Yet all four have already shown you flashes. Only Pritchard is really limited by size and athletic ability. You have the 16th pick. Given Danny's draft history and what I've already seen how aren't you excited? If that isn't enough you make your all in move.
Can a new coach finally unlock Marcus Smarts upside? You know get him to be a PG 100% of the time. Get him to focus on creating, D, his two point game where he picks up FT attempts and limiting his bomb away from three point land game? He has that ability, you see it in stretches yet Smart the bomb away SG always comes back under Steven's. A new coach might finally be able to break that. You can't overlook how much better Robert Williams looks when Smart actually plays PG. Most likely wishful thinking.
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